Flashbacks in Hulk v4 #23

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Paul Bourcier
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Flashbacks in Hulk v4 #23

Post by Paul Bourcier »

There are many flashbacks in last week's HULK v4 #23. Some are revisited flashbacks and others contain new material. I think I have most of them figured out (although someday we're going to have to have a discussion about the chronology of Fall of the Hulks). However, ther are some flashback scenes I'm not sure about. Are they revisits or are they original, and if the latter, where do they go?

(5-6)
Gray Hulk in trousers calls Thunderbolt Ross bad as Betty lies unconscious. Hulk bats Ross aside and leaps away as Ross shakes his fist.

(8-9)
Four different panels showing a green Hulk attacking Ross at various times. Hard to place.

(10-11)
Thunderbolt Ross helps Modok by freeing the Abomination. Hulk fights Abomination, and Betty yells at her dad. I believe this is from H2 167-169, but I don't have those issues to check. Anything new?

(14)
Betty and Bruce kneel by Ross as he speaks his last dying words. I think this is from H2 330, but I don't have that issue to confirm. Again, anything new?

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Re: Flashbacks in Hulk v4 #23

Post by Somebody »

Paul Bourcier wrote:(although someday we're going to have to have a discussion about the chronology of Fall of the Hulks).
Yup. Even besides the... complicated... interleaving, there's the big question mark over Bruce Jones' Hulk run that She-Rulk's origin leaves...
Paul Bourcier wrote:(5-6)
Gray Hulk in trousers calls Thunderbolt Ross bad as Betty lies unconscious. Hulk bats Ross aside and leaps away as Ross shakes his fist.
Ah, I believe this is a revisit to Hulk: Gray by the same creative team (analysis Archive 52, earlier discussion A40), which we deemed non-canon (or, more specifically, "unreliable narrator amounting to non-canon" for the meat of the thing - we have the framing sequence in, but not the FBs) because it stomps all over the Hulk's early history with steel-toed boots.
Paul Bourcier wrote:(14)
Betty and Bruce kneel by Ross as he speaks his last dying words. I think this is from H2 330, but I don't have that issue to confirm. Again, anything new?
Yes and no - the words are slightly off, but the gist is taken from the last two pages of H2 330.
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Re: Flashbacks in Hulk v4 #23

Post by Paul Bourcier »

Somebody wrote:
Ah, I believe this is a revisit to Hulk: Gray by the same creative team (analysis Archive 52, earlier discussion A40), which we deemed non-canon (or, more specifically, "unreliable narrator amounting to non-canon" for the meat of the thing - we have the framing sequence in, but not the FBs) because it stomps all over the Hulk's early history with steel-toed boots.
That's what I thought, but I couldn't find this scene when I went back over my issues of Hulk: Grey.
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Re: Flashbacks in Hulk v4 #23

Post by intp »

Ah, I believe this is a revisit to Hulk: Gray by the same creative team (analysis Archive 52, earlier discussion A40), which we deemed non-canon (or, more specifically, "unreliable narrator amounting to non-canon" for the meat of the thing - we have the framing sequence in, but not the FBs) because it stomps all over the Hulk's early history with steel-toed boots.
I am really glad I found this post, because Hulk:Gray has been bothering me enormously, but I didn't find it on the "non-canon" list in the FAQ (which does, thankfully, list Hulk:Destruction, which I thought was Peter David's single worst Hulk work, after his generally excellent run from H2 331-467). I found it infuriating that Loeb had the nerve to try to "import" this garbage into the 'mainstream' Hulk continuity via Hulk # 23. At least Joe Casey, in Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, portrayed the early Hulk reasonably accurately (as smart and surly). I am going to try to find Archive 52, discussion A40.

I am not an across-the-board Loeb hater; I did like some of his work on Batman; but I really hate his total sloppiness / inattention to continuity details (not as bad as Gerry Conway's, but still pretty bad). How did he even get the Hulk gig, knowing as little as he does about Hulk's background?

Do you think it might be possible to add "Hulk: Gray" to the FAQ's "non-canon" list (near the bottom of the FAQ), perhaps with the caveat, "except for the framing sequence"?

BTW, this is one of my first posts. I am a huge fan and supporter of the chronology project, and use it all the time.

-- Dennis Lee
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Re: Flashbacks in Hulk v4 #23

Post by Russ Chappell »

Thanks for posting, intp.

I'm not really keen on adding parts of stories to the non-canon list. It could become a real mish-mash.

But I might be persuaded to add something to the FAQ, cautioning that sometimes, we have to discount flashbacks as "faulty memories," if they can't be reconciled.
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Re: Flashbacks in Hulk v4 #23

Post by Col_Fury »

Somebody wrote:analysis Archive 52, earlier discussion A40
That should probably say "an analysis is in Archive 52, an earlier discussion is in Archive 40"

To get to the archives, the link is at the bottom of every page in the forums. It's labeled FORUM ARCHIVES.

The various archives are labeled according to when they took place, but if you hover over the download link you'll see what "number" it is. For example, Archive 52 is "Message threads ending in June, 2005."

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Re: Flashbacks in Hulk v4 #23

Post by Somebody »

Welcome :)
intp wrote:I am not an across-the-board Loeb hater; I did like some of his work on Batman; but I really hate his total sloppiness / inattention to continuity details (not as bad as Gerry Conway's, but still pretty bad). How did he even get the Hulk gig, knowing as little as he does about Hulk's background?
Put bluntly, his stuff sells. His last Wolverine run (you know, this one) did numbers level with the Civil War-boosted run just before it, for instance.
Col_Fury wrote:
Somebody wrote:analysis Archive 52, earlier discussion A40
That should probably say "an analysis is in Archive 52, an earlier discussion is in Archive 40"
Yah. I was compressing since Paul B would know of what I bespake ;)
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Re: Flashbacks in Hulk v4 #23

Post by intp »

Thanks for the feedback. I have taken a look at Archive 52, and it's a shame that I wasn't around to participate in that discussion. As a longtime Hulk fan, I have reprints or originals of maybe 90 percent of all Hulk appearances to date, including all of the appearances through H2 141, as well as the majority of subsequent appearances, and I can unequivocally say that the flashback segments from Hulk: Grey cannot be made even vaguely consistent with canon (I can give more specific detail if anyone is interested).

I kind of wonder, though, if maybe the framing sequence should be thrown out as well. I understand the "unreliable narrator" rationale, but a problem is that it strikes me as implausible that Banner's memory would be THAT thoroughly inaccurate. While it's true that his memory of events when he is the Hulk are imperfect, he does seem to have a reasonably good memory of many early events (e.g. of his early days voluntarily changing into the Hulk, cr H 4-6-- see H2 331, I think, where he mentions these experiences to Betty; of his first meeting with the Fantastic Four in Ff 12- see H2 365, when he talks about the 'wrecker' incident with Ben Grimm; of his joining the Avengers-- which is where he first met Iron Man-- which occurred in A 1, long after H 6-- i.e. his pardoning, and the formation of the Teen Brigade, occurred in H 6, which therefore must have preceded A 1; see H2 435, I think-- issue where he attends Nick Fury's funeral and bitterly tells the Avengers that he was an Avenger before the Scarlet Witch or Quicksilver; see also A3 1 by Busiek, where the Wasp tries to get him to rejoin the team). And these are just the examples I can think of off the top of my head.

It really wasn't until the Ditko run in Tta 060+, long after the Hulk's appearances in H 1-5, Ff 12, H 6, A 1-3, Jim 112, Ff 25-26, A 5, Asm 14, and Tta 59, that the Hulk was re-envisioned as a dumb brute; this gradual evolution is discussed at length in one of Peter David's stories where Samson writes a prose report about the effects of gamma radiation on an individual's psychology and the changes in the Hulk's mindset over the years. Anyway, I really liked David's 'gray' hulk run in H2 331+, which is part of the reason I found Loeb's take to be so offensive (particularly since his other early work, "Daredevil: Yellow", was actually fairly faithful to the early Dd issues; it's as if the Hulk gets treated shabbily by many writers because they just don't care about the character much).

Anyway, just a suggestion. If Hulk: Gray's framing sequence is deemed to be "officially" canon, I can live with that, but it would seem to me to be a cleaner solution to just toss the whole thing out.

-- Dennis Lee
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Last edited by intp on Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flashbacks in Hulk v4 #23

Post by Michael »

But at one point in Hulk:Grey, Samson points out that the story Bruce is telling him contradicts reports he read. That supports the contention that Banner is an unreliable narrator.
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