X-MEN FANS: What's missing from the recent Index?

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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Re: X-MEN FANS: What's missing from the recent Index?

Post by JephYork » Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:42 pm

Looking at Web of Spidey v2 #2, Electro's origin was told in flashback in ASM #9 -- and ASM #9 was published between UX #3-4.

Am I right in assuming that Electro's origin fb was *shortly* before ASM #9? Which would place Web v2 #2 between UX #1 and 4 for Magneto?

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Re: X-MEN FANS: What's missing from the recent Index?

Post by Col_Fury » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:07 pm

There's no mention of how long ago Electro's origin was in either WoSM2 2 or ASM 9. Between UX 1 & 4 works for me.

Wasn't there also a Marvel Comics Presents v2 issue with Magento that takes place around this time also?
JephYork wrote:(Cripes -- maybe Cable DID give him Cyberno!)
Maybe...

Wasn't the original Danger Room just a bunch of buzzsaws & stuff? It didn't get all neat & futury until the Shi'Ar came along, right?
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Re: X-MEN FANS: What's missing from the recent Index?

Post by Michael » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:07 pm

JephYork wrote:Crap. That doesn't help one bit. I guess the limiting factor here is that Prof. X is in his wheelchair, then -- placing this fb at least after the encounter with Lucifer that crippled him. Given that C2 #45 establishes that Cable gave Prof. X an unspecified form of advanced tech at this time, and "helped him build the mansion" from an old house into more of a mutant base ... any idea when this flashback could/should take place?

(Cripes -- maybe Cable DID give him Cyberno!)

-Jeph!
Well, the flashback in C2 45 takes place after W/C, which features the Vulture. Does anyone have any idea how long before ASM 2 the Vulture's origin takes place?
W/C also features Wolverine working for Department H, so C2 45 must take place after Logan started working for Department H.
The problem is that we don't know how long after Cable's first meeting with Professor X the flashbacks in Cable 33 and 72 take place.Obviously Cable needed some time to meet G.W. Bridge, for the two of them to become mercenaries/ secret agents together,etc. We can be fairly sure the flashbacks take place before Secret Wars if Xavier's still in a wheelchair but nobody's arguing for a placement that late.
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Re: X-MEN FANS: What's missing from the recent Index?

Post by JephYork » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:14 pm

Wasn't there also a Marvel Comics Presents v2 issue with Magento that takes place around this time also?
Yes. Handbooks place that just before UX #1, and that works for me.
Wasn't the original Danger Room just a bunch of buzzsaws & stuff? It didn't get all neat & futury until the Shi'Ar came along, right?
Right. It was high-tech for its time, but no holograms and stuff until after Prof. X met Lilandra.
the flashback in C2 45 takes place after W/C, which features the Vulture.
(1) There is no flashback in Cable #45. It's just dialogue, Cable thinking back to a conversation he had with Prof. X the first time he met him. (2) How do you know that it takes place after W/C?
we don't know how long after Cable's first meeting with Professor X the flashbacks in Cable 33 and 72 take place.
I assumed that Cable bringing Post to Prof. X in Cable #72 *was* the first time he met him. Not true?

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Re: X-MEN FANS: What's missing from the recent Index?

Post by JephYork » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:20 pm

Okay, I just read World War Hulks: Spidey vs Thor #1/2-2/2, and I have some ideas where the flashbacks could occur.

In the first section, the X-Men are wearing their original costumes -- the ones they wear in UX #1. (Note that in UX #1 they have blue sides, but in UX #2 they've switched to all-yellow torsos.) To me that places this section between UX #1-2.

The following montage is Bobby's war of pranks on Cyclops -- it seems to occur over a lengthy period of time.

The end part, Bobby and Cyclops' fistfight that ends with Prof. X ordering Cyclops to be friends with Iceman, occurs during a time when Cyclops and Jean are actively dating. They didn't admit their love until the middle of UX #32 (thanks to a retcon in UX #138), and by then they were fighting the Juggernaut and Prof. X was busy being kidnapped and that story didn't end until UX #39. So I'd place that final bit between UX #39-40. Luckily, we don't see Bobby's full ice form or any costumes to contradict such a late placement.

So these fbs basically span Cyclops and Iceman's relationship from UX #1-40. Wow.

In one of those UX issues in there, someone compliments Iceman on how he's grown up and stopped being such a prankster, so I'm tempted to put all of his pranks (except the final one that causes the fistfight) prior to that mention. Trouble is -- I forget when that is! Does anyone know off the top of their head?

[EDIT: Meh. It was in UX #11. Jean says "Bobby, ever since you stopped your childish hi-jinks, you've become masterful with your ice power!" Except, a few pages earlier in that same issue, Bobby plays a prank on Beast -- so I don't know how much faith I can put in that reference. Plus it doesn't really work for Bobby to stop pranking Scott around UX #11, only for their tensions to boil into a fistfight after UX #39 ... bah.]

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Re: X-MEN FANS: What's missing from the recent Index?

Post by Michael » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:29 pm

JephYork wrote:
the flashback in C2 45 takes place after W/C, which features the Vulture.
(1) There is no flashback in Cable #45. It's just dialogue, Cable thinking back to a conversation he had with Prof. X the first time he met him.
Sorry,my bad!
JephYork wrote: (2) How do you know that it takes place after W/C? .
In W/C, Cable has just gotten to New York for the first time and looks up Xavier in a library, so he can seek him out.
JephYork wrote:
we don't know how long after Cable's first meeting with Professor X the flashbacks in Cable 33 and 72 take place.
I assumed that Cable bringing Post to Prof. X in Cable #72 *was* the first time he met him. Not true?

-Jeph!
I assumed it wasn't, since in C2 45, Cable remarks that Xavier taught him about the twentieth century, and in Cable 33 he's already been working with Bridge for some time- heck, he even remarks that Xavier taught him about beer, and I can't imagine Bridge not going out drinking with Cable.

I just looked through W/C- Mac uses the name Alpha Flight. When did he come up with that name?
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Re: X-MEN FANS: What's missing from the recent Index?

Post by metaldragon » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:30 pm

JephYork wrote:In the first section, the X-Men are wearing their original costumes -- the ones they wear in UX #1. (Note that in UX #1 they have blue sides, but in UX #2 they've switched to all-yellow torsos.) To me that places this section between UX #1-2.
The artwork was pretty inconsistent when it came to the under arm area of their yellow over-vest things up until Marvel Girl's overall design tweak in UX 27 where they became essentially tabards. They stretched and shrunk with different inkers & artists.
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Re: X-MEN FANS: What's missing from the recent Index?

Post by JephYork » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:32 pm

in C2 45, Cable remarks that Xavier taught him about the twentieth century, and in Cable 33 he's already been working with Bridge for some time- heck, he even remarks that Xavier taught him about beer, and I can't imagine Bridge not going out drinking with Cable.
Fair enough. Also, I suppose it makes sense for Cable to have brought Post to Prof. X because *the two already knew one another* -- not for Cable to show up as a complete stranger and say "hi, Professor, you don't know me, but help this blue dude." So Cable #72 fb occurs after the reference in Cable #45, which occurs after W/C, which occurs after the Vulture's origin.

Okay, so -- when IS Vulture's origin, relative to ASM #2?
The artwork was pretty inconsistent when it came to the under arm area of their yellow over-vest things up until Marvel Girl's overall design tweak in UX 27 where they became essentially tabards. They stretched and shrunk with different inkers & artists.
Very true. But Bobby's always been a prankster, and this seems to be the "origin" of his pranks -- so I figured an early placement would help. Plus it's gotta be before UX #8 in any case, since he's snowy.

Hmm, though Jean's looking at Scott awfully fondly as they exit the Danger Room. Could this be after that UX #308 fb where she realizes that she has a crush on him, which we placed between UX #6-7?

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Re: X-MEN FANS: What's missing from the recent Index?

Post by JephYork » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:38 pm

Oops, just saw that you edited this in:
I just looked through W/C- Mac uses the name Alpha Flight. When did he come up with that name?
That is an excellent question -- along with "when did Wolvie start as an agent?" Can both of these chronology points actually occur prior to ASM #2?

-Jeph!

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Re: X-MEN FANS: What's missing from the recent Index?

Post by Michael » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:02 pm

JephYork wrote:Oops, just saw that you edited this in:
I just looked through W/C- Mac uses the name Alpha Flight. When did he come up with that name?
That is an excellent question -- along with "when did Wolvie start as an agent?" Can both of these chronology points actually occur prior to ASM #2?

-Jeph!
Well, in the AF SPECIAL, the prototype of Alpha Flight is simply called the Flight. Then again, it's possible that Mac originally planned on calling them Alpha Flight, changed his mind and decided to call them the Flight, and later decided he liked his first choice of name better.
Wolverine was some sort of agent in the BFF:BGL series, which takes place before FF 1 but IIRC, they don't explicitly use the words "Department H".
The Vulture refers to his robbery in W/C as his "first endeavor as a master thief"- that means it has to take place before ASM 2.
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Re: X-MEN FANS: What's missing from the recent Index?

Post by JephYork » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:03 pm

I guess those references *have* to stand. I just re-read Cable #minus-1 and W/C, and they definitely need to take place early on.

Cable #minus-1 occurs during a time when Moira hasn't spoken to Prof. X in years -- so before the UX #300 fb (set right before UX #1) where the two talk about Prof. X's "X-Men" idea.

W/C occurs right after that, when Cable comes to New York from Scotland, and encounters the Vulture during his "first outing" -- so before ASM #2.

Luckily, references to "Alpha Flight" make it sound like the program is still in the planning stages -- and the fact that Wolvie's working with Dept. H at that time isn't really a big deal, given that his whole history is a big vague mess anyway.

So, okay: Cable definitely arrives in the present pre-UX #1. He likely tracked down Prof. X soon after W/C (according to C2 #-1 and W/C, that was specifically *why* he came back from the future) -- so that off-panel meeting would have been circa or just prior to UX #1 as well. Which makes it easy to rationalize the "tech" he gave Prof. X as being Danger-Room-related.

So -- when did the Mandarin fb, which should occur *after* Prof. X's first meeting with Cable, take place? Cable's had time to meet Bridge and become a mercenary ... so this might possibly be *after* TOS #50 (which occurs circa UX #3).

Who's a Mandarin expert? At what points in his chronology is he *available to appear* after TOS #50? Hopefully he doesn't have a chronology like the Juggernaut, where each appearance ends with him definitively taken out of play (comatose, tossed into another dimension) and definitively brought back *from* that status quo each time he next appears. Hopefully the Mandarin gets away clean each time, cackling "I'll get you next time, Iron Man!", and we have some empty spaces to slot this Cable #33 & 72 fb into...

-Jeph!

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Re: X-MEN FANS: What's missing from the recent Index?

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:26 am

JephYork wrote:Okay, so -- when IS Vulture's origin, relative to ASM #2?
There's no mention of how long ago it was in ASM 241, so he have some wiggle room.
JephYork wrote:
Michael wrote:I just looked through W/C- Mac uses the name Alpha Flight. When did he come up with that name?
That is an excellent question -- along with "when did Wolvie start as an agent?" Can both of these chronology points actually occur prior to ASM #2?
Wolverine was found by the Hudsons before Fantastic Four #1, and Mac was already working on the project by that point. Later, Wolverine became an agent, and later still is when Fantastic Four #1 happens. Fantastic Four #1 happens before ASM #2.
JephYork wrote:At what points in his chronology is he *available to appear* after TOS #50? Hopefully he doesn't have a chronology like the Juggernaut, where each appearance ends with him definitively taken out of play (comatose, tossed into another dimension) and definitively brought back *from* that status quo each time he next appears. Hopefully the Mandarin gets away clean each time, cackling "I'll get you next time, Iron Man!", and we have some empty spaces to slot this Cable #33 & 72 fb into...
Here you go:

Mandarin
...
IM 268-FB (continued from TOS 39, Iron Man's origin)
-Mandarin is free & clear
{TOS 50 (1 - 3:1)}
...
TOS 55 (5:8 - 13:9) (continued from TOS 50)
IM:EM 6 (19 - 22)
-Mandarin is free & clear
TOS 61
TOS 62
-Mandarin is free & clear
FF@ 3
-Mandarin free & clear
A 20
-Mandarin free & clear
TOS 77-FB
TOS 76
TOS 77
TOS 78
-Mandarin free & clear
TOS 84
TOS 85
TOS 86
-Mandarin free & clear
A@ 1
...
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Re: X-MEN FANS: What's missing from the recent Index?

Post by JephYork » Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:28 am

Thanks, Daron! Any preference, based on the Mandarin's looks in those issues, as to where a good spot is?

Also, I'm starting to wonder when Prof. X had the *time* to meet with Cable and Post in the X-Mansion drawing room without the X-Men noticing. Any ideas to rationalize that off? They were sleeping? Big house? He telepathized them? They were away on a mission?

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Re: X-MEN FANS: What's missing from the recent Index?

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:39 am

Not really, Mandarin's not in his normal Silver Age outfit in Cable #72-FB. And one of the nice things about Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin is, it shows that the "costume" we normally see Mandarin wearing in the Silver Age is actually ceremonial battle clothes, and not something he normally wears around the house. Meaning, Mandarin's clothes aren't really a factor here. Where ever it fits best for the X-men will work for the Mandarin, really.

As for the X-Men not noticing, maybe they were at the Coffee@Go-Go? (or whatever that place is called)
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Re: X-MEN FANS: What's missing from the recent Index?

Post by JephYork » Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:04 am

Rats -- the event isn't listed in either Cable or Mandarin's Handbook entries.

Maybe right before FF Annual #3? If the other thread that I started bears fruit, the X-Men have a lengthy gap there where they're recuperating. Their bedridden status could allow Prof. X to take a (probably lengthy) meeting with two mysterious mutants in the other wing of the house. Also, that gives Cable about six months, Marvel-time, to go from "just arrived in the 20th century" to "mercenary working with Bridge and others"...

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