Emma Frost and that X-Men flashback...

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Emma Frost and that X-Men flashback...

Post by JephYork » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:51 am

In an early issue of "Emma Frost", she sees the X-Men on TV in their individual post-UX #39 costumes.

This quick cameo occurs before Emma strikes out on her own. We see her on her own in GenX #-1, where she encounters Sean Cassidy, who's a policeman.

However, by the time of UX #28, Sean's the Banshee.

That gives us UX #39 -> EF #(whatever) -> GenX #-1 -> UX #28. Oops.

How did we resolve this? I have an errata note meant for Index publication, placing the X-Men's TV appearance between UX #52-53. Is that workable? What would that mean for Emma? Did she strike out on her own once *prior* to the EF series, but come home? Or did Banshee become a policeman *after* being freed from Factor Three's control in UX #28-35?

Or were the X-Men just drawn in the wrong costumes in that EF panel?

Remind me how we resolved this -- or IF we resolved this.

-Jeph!

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Re: Emma Frost and that X-Men flashback...

Post by Michael » Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:03 am

It was discussed in Archive 52:
GENERATION X #-1
A continuity nightmare. Sean is described as an NYPD detective at this point; perhaps he's on secondment. While keeping surveillance on Harry Leland with his partner, Sean sees the teenage Emma Frost being abducted by the Dark Beast. He goes after her. Emma saves him from the Dark Beast, but then wipes his memory of events and sends him and his partner away, intending to form an alliance with the Dark Beast. (This story has Emma, aged 16, attending a society ball. Both the narrator and the Dark Beast confirm Emma's claim to be a runaway who spent time living on the streets, which seems to have been comprehensively discredited by the EMMA FROST series. Assuming that this story remains canonical at all - and EMMA FROST writer Karl Bollers maintains that it is - it must take place after current events in EMMA FROST, which in turn would place it after the dawn of mutant hysteria seen in EF #14. That would place it after the debut of the original Sentinels, meaning that this story is only very shortly before Sean's capture by Factor Three and subsequent debut.)

Sean is traditionally listed as BTS in UX 26-27 on the basis that he's sensed as a mutant menace in those issues, and then goes on to debut in UX 28. That gives the following listing:-

CX 16/2
XFOR 31-FB
X@ 3/2-FB
DPOOL2 2-FB
CX 26/2-FB
XFOR 31-FB
GENX 10-FB
GENX 11-FB
XFOR 31-FB
GENX -1
UX 26-BTS
UX 27-BTS
UX 28
_________________
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Posted: 22 Sep 2004 07:12 am
By Dhall

As Gen X -1 is the ONLY issue ever where Sean is with the NYPD, it's entirelly possible that this issue occurs AFTER his debut with Factor Three. That it's after his time in Interpol no one doubts. My argument for putting it later is:

1) The X-Men appear in their individual costumes in EF, which places this after UX 39. (Unless, and until we have definite information that this is an art error, there's no reason to treat it as such.)

2) What was Banshee doing after Factor 3, and before he was kidnapped by the Sentinels for UX 58-60? I'd have to check the issues of course to confirm, but as far as we know, not much. I'd guess that this is the period where he was working for the NYPD. He certinaly wanted to go on the straight and narrow after the factor three experience, and there is no evidence that he went back to Interpol.

3) Emma supposedly spends a year homeless prior to the events of GEN X -1. This places it at least a year after EF. Whatever that means exactly, a year or so, should put this issue well after UX 28 (since as you say the dawn of mutant hysteria is seen in EF 14.)


Dave H
* * *

Posted: 22 Sep 2004 09:10 am
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

The costumes in the early issue of EF are definitely an error, since the existence of mutants doesn't even become public knowledge until EF 14, when anti-mutant hatred appears more or less overnight. It's inconceivable that Emma could have been ignorant of the concept of mutants up until that point if the X-Men had been active that long before her series started.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

* * *

Posted: 22 Sep 2004 09:31 am
By Dhall

Paul,
If it's any consolation, I would agree with you,regarding the internal logic of the EF series, IF we were just discussing the EF series (and not Gen X -1.) Gen X -1 is really incompatible in many ways with EF. I think we should wait for EF to finish, before we try to hash this out. I'm really wondering if it is still canon.

My thoughts currently about Gen X -1, is that it is so incompatible with the EF series, that we're going to have to throw it onto the non-canon pile. If we do that, then I would probably go along with you on an early placement
for EF.

It seems to me that there is no real way to reconcile Gen X -1 with EF. Why would Emma spend a year living on the streets, now that she has enough money to go to college? When exactly was Banshee in the NYPD?

As things are, we're already having to throw out some Gen X flashbacks, that clearly contradict the EF series.


Dave H
* * *

Posted: 22 Sep 2004 10:29 am
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

True; however, Karl Bollers insists that he's well aware of these flashbacks and that (assuming the series survives that long) they'll be explained in the end.

I rather expect that the answer is going to be that Emma started lying about her past at some point, which would require a degree of revisionism to GENX -1 but wouldn't really invalidate the story as a whole - her age would have to be increased, the bit about her living on the streets has to go, but the overall plot remains valid.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

* * *

Posted: 22 Sep 2004 11:54 am
By Dhall

Then we should wait until EF is finished before we try to place gen x -1. My worry is that the series will get cancelled, and leave us without an explanation for gen x -1, and the genx fb's.

* * *

Posted: 22 Sep 2004 12:34 pm
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

If we never do get an explanation for the Gen-X FBs, then I suggest we simply place them based on Emma's relative age -- before EF #1.

She appears to be eleven or twelve in the FBs -- and it's not inconceivable that she had a slight development of her psychic powers back then. From what we know of her father, he likely WOULD have tossed her in a mental hospital. And her powers could have diminished, and returned fully years later in EF #1.

I know it doesn't make a perfect sense upon a close reading -- but it's the simplest way to order the events.

As for Gen-X #-1 and Emma's period of homelessness -- could it have happened between EF #6-7?

-Jeph!

* * *

Posted: 22 Sep 2004 12:57 pm
By Dhall

No, it could not, unless you are prepared to believe that she's met the Dark Beast, Harry Leland, and Banshee by EF #7. That just strains credibility to the extreme.....

* * *

Posted: 22 Sep 2004 01:42 pm
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I ... am prepared to believe that. What's wrong with it, other than her not knowing what mutants are in EF #13-14? She just might not know the term -- surely by this point in EF, she's heard of super-beings in general.

-Jeph!

* * *

Posted: 22 Sep 2004 09:47 pm
By Dhall

Well that's the point, if she'd met some mutants, she'd know what they are, yes?

Dave H

* * *

Posted: 23 Sep 2004 04:04 am
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Placement of Generation X #-1 before Emma Frost #1 is completely unworkable. Aside from anything else, by the time of Generation X #-1 she's left home and is reasonably skilled in the use of her powers. In Emma Frost #1 she's a taciturn mouse who's never summoned up the nerve to cross her parents, and her powers haven't even emerged yet.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

* * *

Posted: 23 Sep 2004 08:51 am
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I wasn't suggesting placing Gen-X #-1 before EF #1 ... I was suggesting placing it between EF #6-7, and chucking the "living on the streets for a year" reference.

I was suggesting placing the "insane asylum" flashbacks in Gen-X #24 and 48 before EF #1 -- based mainly on Emma's relative age.

-Jeph!

* * *

Posted: 23 Sep 2004 09:49 am
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Still wouldn't work, though. Emma's telepathy is far too advanced in GENX #-1. There's just no way that that story can take place until some time after the current EF storyline because Emma simply doesn't yet have the skill or power to do things that are central to the plot of GENX -1. She's only just learned to read thoughts; GENX -1 has her doing mind control and memory wiping. Granted that GENX -1 shows Emma to be inexperienced with those tricks, as of the most recent EF issue, she can't do them at all. Nowhere even close. And her lack of telepathic skill isn't just a major plot point in EF - it pretty much IS the plot.

It's much easier to ignore the specific age given for Emma in GENX #-1 (which is irrelevant to the plot), and the references to her living on the streets (which are alluded to, but ultimately incidental and capable of being worked around).
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* * *

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Re: Emma Frost and that X-Men flashback...

Post by Michael » Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:02 am

Just to add my own feelings on the matter, in Emma Frost 6, the press doesn't seem to know that the X-Men are mutants- they're wondering if their powers are some sort of special effects. That would seem to reinforce the theory that the costumes are an art error- it's hard to imagine the press not knowing the X-Men are mutants if this is post UX 39.

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Re: Emma Frost and that X-Men flashback...

Post by Jason Doty » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:34 pm

I think all the issues we need to consider for this time period, would be
Emma Frost 1-18, X-Men Origins: Emma Frost, Generation X -1,the back up in X-Men: Deadly Genesis. I think these all deal with Emma up to the point of her "stripper time," before becoming a full "Inner Circle" member of the Hellfire Club.

as far as Banshee goes, he never left the U.S after the Factor Three thing and Sentinel attack, and the Mutant Empire thing in Captain America. I think he was recruited from the Grand 'Ol Opre in Giant-Size X-Men 1. It would be a safe bet that he had to earn a living in the US. He probably stayed being a cop.

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Re: Emma Frost and that X-Men flashback...

Post by JephYork » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:09 pm

Hmm. Both the MCP and the most recent Index currently place GenX #-1 prior to UX #28. Checking the Official Handbooks, they also have Banshee's encounter with Emma prior to his time with Factor Three. (Although they have it occurring "years" before ... eh.)

I'm loathe to contradict the Handbooks if there's a solution that allows their relative placements to stand. So assuming that they're correct, and the entire EF series occurs before UX #28 -- then we can link the anti-mutant protest in EF #14 to Bolivar Trask's news article, published in UX #14.

Therefore, the X-Men HAVE to be in the wrong costumes in their TV appearance in EF #6. Which jibes with the reporter not knowing what mutants are.

So -- given this supposition, that the X-Men appear on TV in EF #6 prior to UX #14 -- where does it occur for them?

Or, do we even NEED to place it? Could this be a scrap of footage from a pre-existing public X-Men battle, one that adds no new info to their chronologies?

-Jeph!

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Re: Emma Frost and that X-Men flashback...

Post by Jason Doty » Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:06 pm

I just looked through Emma Frost 1-18

Emma Frost 1-6 (Emma's powers manifest, she graduates high school, has falling out with family) X-Men appear in no.6 post X-Men v1 no.39 (Emma's already graduated making her 17 or 18)

Emma Frost 7-12 (Emma heads to Boston, starts manipulating people)

Generation X -1 (Emma in New York, ignore age comment of 16, runs in to Banshee, Leland, Dark Beast. She's still developing her manipulative skills)

Emma Frost 13-18 (Emma enrolls in college in New York)

X-Men: Deadly Genesis no.5/2 (Emma Dances at the Hellfire Club, but unaware anyone knows about her abilities, meets Xavier, Moira, and Vulcan, but Xavier mind erases the event from everyone involved) This takes place between Giant-Size X-Men flashback and main story)

Moving Banshee's appearance to after the Factor Three incedent rather than before and ignoring Emma's age seem to make this work quite fluidly. Now I'll check the X-Men Origins: Emma Frost.

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Re: Emma Frost and that X-Men flashback...

Post by Michael » Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:41 pm

Moving Generation X -1 in between Emma Frost 12 and 13 doesn't work for the reasons discussed in Archive 52- Emma first learns what a mutant is in Emma Frost 14, which would require that the Dark Beast never mentioned to Emma what a mutant is, and Emma's too skilled with her telepathy for Generation X -1 to take place before Emma Frost 13-18.
The idea that Emma Frost doesn't know what a mutant is if Emma Frost 6 take place after UX 39 would require Emma to be deaf, dumb and blind- UX 39 takes place after Wanda and Pietro have been Avengers for months. Plus, the idea that the press wasn't sure the X-Men were mutants by UX 39 is inconsistent with what we were shown in the stories- just about every time the X-Men appeared post-UX 14, everyone knew they were mutants.

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Re: Emma Frost and that X-Men flashback...

Post by Jason Doty » Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:34 pm

When I looked at Generation X -1, Emma passes out in the bathroom, because of reading minds, then is rescued by Dark Beast when some thugs hit her in the face. She dosen't seemed to skilled to me. With all the different types of heroes in the Marvel Universe how does she know where her powers come from? In fact Xavier usaully explains to the mutants what they are when he meets them. The report seemed to me in EF no.6 that the reporter didn't recognize them because of their costumes. Also, even though this is going to sound kind of stereotypical, I don't view todays wealthy teens or socialites to be concerned with current events or things they might seem beneath them. Oh, and at that time I don't think Dark Beast even had his memories, so who knows what he told her.

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Re: Emma Frost and that X-Men flashback...

Post by JephYork » Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:01 pm

I'd like to focus on that X-Men-on-TV scene in this thread. That's the main conundrum that I'd like to solve.

Regardless of whether Gen X #-1 goes between EF #12-13 or after EF #18, I think we're all agreed that it at least occurs after EF #6. Therefore, this sequents of events: [X-Men on TV -> policeman Banshee meets Emma] must be true.

So: are the X-Men on TV after #39, and Banshee's a cop AFTER UX #28?

Or, are the X-Men wearing the incorrect costumes, and Banshee's a cop BEFORE UX #28?

The Handbooks say the latter.

Also, regardless of the above -- is the X-Men's TV appearance *original material*?? Or could it be interpreted as footage of one of the public battles that we've *already seen in a comic* -- meaning that this isn't even a real appearance for them??

-Jeph!

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Re: Emma Frost and that X-Men flashback...

Post by Midnighter » Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:29 am

Jason Doty wrote:I think all the issues we need to consider for this time period, would be
Emma Frost 1-18, X-Men Origins: Emma Frost, Generation X -1,the back up in X-Men: Deadly Genesis. I think these all deal with Emma up to the point of her "stripper time," before becoming a full "Inner Circle" member of the Hellfire Club.

as far as Banshee goes, he never left the U.S after the Factor Three thing and Sentinel attack, and the Mutant Empire thing in Captain America. I think he was recruited from the Grand 'Ol Opre in Giant-Size X-Men 1. It would be a safe bet that he had to earn a living in the US. He probably stayed being a cop.
There are also the flashbacks of Emma's story from Dark Reign: The Cabal, where she steals from a sexy shop the "dress" she later used in Hellfire Club.

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Re: Emma Frost and that X-Men flashback...

Post by Jason Doty » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:26 am

The TV screen is shown on three panels as Emma comes in to speak to her brother, who is just home after attempting suicide. It shows Marvel Girl, Cyclops, Angel, Iceman, and Beast all in there new uniforms from X-Men no.39. It does not show who they are battling and is not art does not look like a previous battle I've seen. The two other panels show close ups of the first scene . Iceman is riding on his ice slide. The TV announcer is saying "...footage captured by an amature video camera in New York City, of a bizarrely uniformed group of teens, exhibiting fantastic powers. Elaborately staged hoax perpatrated by FX wizardry? Log on to Surreal TV website and cast your vote..."

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Re: Emma Frost and that X-Men flashback...

Post by Michael » Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:24 am

Jason Doty wrote: The report seemed to me in EF no.6 that the reporter didn't recognize them because of their costumes.
They should have at least recognized Bobby- his ice form retained the same look. And once they figured out it was Bobby, they should have been able to figure out Angel from his wings, Scott from his visor,etc.

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Re: Emma Frost and that X-Men flashback...

Post by JephYork » Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:34 pm

[hr]It does not show who they are battling ... Iceman is riding on his ice slide.[hr]
In other words, it's generic enough that it could be any public X-Men battle. I don't see them doing any unique actions (like levitating something specific, blasting through something specific, saying specific dialogue, etc) that could differentiate this from all the other battles where Cyclops has used his optic blasts, Angel has flown through the air and Iceman has ridden his ice slide.

For my money, this is a snippet of one of the X-Men's early public battles, and adds no new information -- and thus, doesn't need to go in the MCP.

-Jeph!

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Re: Emma Frost and that X-Men flashback...

Post by Jason Doty » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:25 pm

Why such a hard push, not to place this scene. They are not in the early uniforms, this is not an artistic error. The uniforms aren't colored wrong or drawn incorrectly. They depict the X-Men at a point after X-Men no.39 and a scene unreminisent of any other battle dipicted before. The first clue in a comic is the visual and it deserves to be placed. Who ever placed Generation X no.-1 didn't tale into account this series or chose to ignore it, either way it changes the placement of Generation X no.-1 to a later period than before X-Men v1 no.28. The Factor Three storyline ran just about from 28 to 39 anyway. So why wouldn't Banshee return to his job after being freed of their influence. Not changing a placement because of new information just seems wrong. It's not like Marvel dose'nt update the Handbooks all the time. I can't see how that could be construed as going against them or the MCP, were just adding in new material. Whats going to happen when the Rogue ongoing gets indexed and we have to push all her early appearances to prior to UX 64 because of the Sunfire and his Uncle f/b's. I don't think Earth's Mightest Heroes, Angel: Revalations, or a bunch of other series matches scene for scene, but it's slightly easier to ignore a word rather than something thats drawn. The spirit of this would be to place it as closely as we can based on the clues, not coming up with little minutia of why it can't, or placing it incorrectly, or now not even counting it at all, when we do other books in the same circumstances.

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Re: Emma Frost and that X-Men flashback...

Post by JephYork » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:47 pm

this is not an artistic error.
How do you know that? Did you see the script? Did it specifically say "draw the X-Men in their UX #39-60 costumes"?
a scene unreminisent of any other battle dipicted before.
Have you checked every battle from that era? Could you cite evidence for your claim that this scene is visually distinct and unique from each and every one of them?

We see photos of Spidey in mid-battle on the cover of the Bugle all the time. We generally disregard them as "photos taken during a previously-shown scene". This is exactly the same, as far as I'm concerned -- TV footage shot during a previously-shown scene. There's not one unique feature about the X-Men's appearance on that TV screen that tells me it's a snippet from an all-new, never-before told tale. They don't say any new dialogue and they don't do anything they haven't done before.

Lots of flashbacks show previous battles, but add no new information. We don't include them in the MCP either. There's no new information here. The X-Men had a battle with someone, out in public, and we can't prove that it's NOT footage from a battle in a previous comic. Unless and until we CAN prove that this is a new battle, NOT one we've seen before -- we don't need to list this scene.
why wouldn't Banshee return to his job after being freed of their influence.
First of all -- it's not a "return" to his job. he's only ever been shown as a cop ONCE, and that was in GenX #-1. This would be him briefly taking a NEW job, not returning to an old one.

Secondly -- he wasn't in the country. In UX #28, he was freed, and left "to go home" -- presumably Ireland. In UX #35, we find him in Europe, looking for Factor Three. When Factor Three was defeated, he presumably stayed there -- or at least, went back to Ireland again. Why would an Irishman travel to America after winning a battle in Europe? He'd either stay in Europe or go back to Ireland.

In UX #59-60, the next time we see Banshee, he's been captured by Sentinels. But they captured mutants all over the world -- including Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch and Toad, who were also in Europe at the time. So that's not evidence that Banshee was in the USA when caught. So basically, we last saw him in Europe, and then he was captured by robots that went everywhere *including Europe* to do their capturing. No evidence that he ever returned to the USA.

Cap #172 reveals that he stayed in the USA after being freed in UX #60, though. But he was in Nashville, not New York. And he was "laying low", but his idea of laying low was walking around Nashville with a trenchcoat over his costume.
Not changing a placement because of new information just seems wrong.
It's not "new information" -- this information was available when the Banshee profile was written, and you don't have any idea whether they MISSED it, or whether they looked at it -- just as we're doing -- and said "hey, this evidence doesn't work, we're ignoring it."

The MCP's policy is that the Handbooks and Indexes, as secondary sources, are ALWAYS RIGHT unless they can be PROVED WRONG.

Can we prove them wrong here? Well, either the X-Men are in the right costumes and the Handbook CAN be proved wrong -- or it's an art error, and the Handbook's profile can stand.

The fact that Emma doesn't know about mutants until EF #14 tends to make me lean towards "art error".
The spirit of this would be to place it as closely as we can based on the clues
Yes, and some of the clues are Banshee's Handbook profile's sequence of events, the announcer's ignorance of the X-Men, and Emma's ignorance of mutants.

At this point, as far as I'm concerned, it's a recorded snippet of a battle that's already been depicted in the comics. No need to jump through any more hoops trying to place it -- it's just like every other photo of Spidey, or flashback with no new information.

-Jeph!

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