Avengers 16 flashbacks

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

Moderators: Paul Bourcier, Kevin W., Col_Fury, Arthur, JephYork, Somebody

Locked
Arthur
Director
Director
Posts: 305
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:19 am
Location: Hampton, New Brunswick, Canada

Avengers 16 flashbacks

Post by Arthur » Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:13 pm

This has been on my to-do list for a long while.. Jeph's 'X-Men call to arms' pushed me to get it cleared! thx Jeph!


Two flashbacks in A 16... (yeah FIRST series)

A 16 (10:3)-FB… the panel shows Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver in confrontation with Angel, Beast and Iceman. The scene is of a city street with the Scarlet Witch toppling a brick wall on the Beast.

This can only be during UX 4 when they fought in Santo Marco.
(UX 5 takes place on Asteroid M; UX 6 is on Magneto’s Isle; UX 7 is at Magneto’s warehouse (where there is some brick nearby but the fight scene is short and I see no room to implant) and UX 11 occurs indoors.)

In UX 4, right after Beast fails to scale the palace wall.(14:5), I posit that after falling to the ground, Beast bounds to the other side of the palace (which faces the town main street) joining Angel and Iceman. (14:6 narrative…'At the other side of the castle…). The Scarlet Witch causes the wall to fall on Beast and then ducks back inside. Quicksilver follows Angel, waiting until he flies low enough to assault.(15:4).

ANGEL III/WARREN KENNETH WORTHINGTON III
BEAST/HENRY "HANK" P. MCCOY
ICEMAN/ROBERT "BOBBY" DRAKE

*UX 4 (1-14:5) splitting current entry to insert FB
**A 16 (10:3)-FB
*UX 4 (14:6-20:5)
UX 5


A 16 (10:2)-FB shows a scene of the ‘camaraderie’ in the Brotherhood... Magneto chastising Mastermind while the rest of the brotherhood looks on. The background is exceedingly bland, very much like the panel backgrounds of Magneto’s Isle in the Atlantic (see UX 4 (5:4, 6:1)

MAGNETO/MAGNUS/"ERIC LENSHERR"
M/CP2 3/2
**A 16 (10:2)-FB
UX 4

MASTERMIND/JASON WYNGARDE
**A 16 (10:2)-FB
UX 4
UX 5

TOAD/MORTIMER TOYNBEE
XMF 4
**A 16 (10:2)-FB
{UX 4}
UX 5

And Wanda and Pietro are in both FBs:


QUICKSILVER/PIETRO MAXIMOFF
SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF

X -1
M/CP2 3/2
**A 16 (10:2)-FB
*{UX 4}(1-14:5)
**A 16 (10:3)-FB
*UX 4 (14:6-20:5)
UX 5

JephYork
Director
Director
Posts: 4613
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:10 pm
Location: Boston
Contact:

Re: Avengers 16 flashbacks

Post by JephYork » Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:38 am

I have the "Magneto punishing Mastermind" scene as a flashback to X #6 p.4, with no new information.
A 16 (10:3)-FB… the panel shows Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver in confrontation with Angel, Beast and Iceman. The scene is of a city street with the Scarlet Witch toppling a brick wall on the Beast.
Actually, I have this as part of the off-panel Brotherhood/X-Men battle in JIM #109. After the Brotherhood calls in to Magneto (saying "they're only half a mile behind us!"), I presume that the X-Men caught up.

Santo Marco didn't really have a "cityscape" in the background -- it was a small nation. I think the JIM #109 battle, happening on the streets of NYC, is a better fit for this one.

I also have one of the flashbacks from UX #37, where Iceman freezes Mastermind in a block of ice, placed there too.

-Jeph!

Paul Bourcier
Director
Director
Posts: 5424
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:51 am
Location: Florida

Re: Avengers 16 flashbacks

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:16 am

And the entry for A 16 in issue #1 of the most recent Index attributes the flashback to UX 11.
Paul B.

Arthur
Director
Director
Posts: 305
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:19 am
Location: Hampton, New Brunswick, Canada

Re: Avengers 16 flashbacks

Post by Arthur » Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:06 am

Jeph wrote:
I have the "Magneto punishing Mastermind" scene as a flashback to X #6 p.4, with no new information.
Certainly could be; they are similar.

Santo Marco didn't really have a "cityscape" in the background -- it was a small nation.
UX 4(11:3) shows a city street (buildings on both sides and a street lamp).

JephYork
Director
Director
Posts: 4613
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:10 pm
Location: Boston
Contact:

Re: Avengers 16 flashbacks

Post by JephYork » Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:05 pm

And the entry for A 16 in issue #1 of the most recent Index attributes the flashback to UX 11.
Whaaaat? the X-Men/Brotherhood fight in that issue took place in a room. Not out in the city streets.

I still think the JIM #109 battle, which was mostly off-panel, is the best place to insert new information. JIM #109 is a running battle through the streets of NYC -- this flashback shows the X-Men chasing the Brotherhood through city streets. And Marvel Girl's absent from both.

-Jeph!

Michael
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 1177
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 am

Re: Avengers 16 flashbacks

Post by Michael » Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:11 pm

I'm not sure if we should include the flashback at all- it seems like it's not intended to be representative of new material, but just a depiction of one of the Brotherhood's previous battles and any differences are artistic license. There's a similar flashback in A 234 of the X-Men vs. the Brotherhood that isn't included- what's the difference?

JephYork
Director
Director
Posts: 4613
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:10 pm
Location: Boston
Contact:

Re: Avengers 16 flashbacks

Post by JephYork » Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:14 pm

Maybe the A #234 flashback should be included too. If it's got new material, it's got new material.

I'm all for a little bit of artistic license and dialogue paraphrasing, but if the FB clearly shows events that we never saw on-panel -- Scarlet Witch toppling a wall on Beast, Iceman throwing ice boomerangs at Quicksilver -- then I think it deserves consideration for inclusion.

UX #37 shows scenes of the X-Men battling various Factor Three members, some of which we've never seen before (Beast spinning Blob with his feet, Marvel Girl hitting Mastermind into the ceiling, Iceman freezing Mastermind in an ice block). These were intended to be "generic flashbacks" to their history together -- but we never saw 'em the first time around. I think they deserve inclsuion as new material.

By contrast, going back to the Emma Frost #6 TV cameo in the other thread -- that's a thoroughly generic scene, and as such I *don't* think it deserves inclusion.

-Jeph!

JephYork
Director
Director
Posts: 4613
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:10 pm
Location: Boston
Contact:

Re: Avengers 16 flashbacks

Post by JephYork » Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:21 am

Avengers #234 - Beast swings from a tree, Cyclops blasts the ground as both groups charge at one another -- stuff not shown in any prior X-Men/Brotherhood battle. Hilly terrain in background, so I put this during UX #4. (I would have also said #6, but there don't seem to be any trees on Magneto's island.) I've already put a gap in UX #4 for the flashback in X-Men: Legacy #209, and this looks like it could immediately follow that flashback.

-Jeph!

Locked