Avengers: The Origin

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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Avengers: The Origin

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:35 am

Now that Avengers: the Origin has wrapped up, here is my chronology for the series. Like many other continuity implant series, you have to squint hard to reconcile the different way things are depicted, but generally this series works. Yeah, the Teen Brigade is radically different in the new series, and yeah the Detroit auto plant was replaced by a Denver munitions plant, and yeah, a few panels in A 1 are now out of sequence, but I've seen a lot worse fits.

So here goes. Brackets indicate bts appearances.

AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 (1-2/3:5)
Loki
AVENGERS #1 (1-2:2)
Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 (2/3:6-4:1)
Loki
AVENGERS #1 (2:3-2:5)
Thor (as Don Blake), Jane Foster, Billy, Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 (4:2)
Loki
AVENGERS #1 (2:6-2:7)
Hulk, Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 (4:3-5:2)
Hulk, Loki
AVENGERS #1 (3:1-3:5)
Hulk, Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 (5:3-6)
Hulk, Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 – FB (7:2-7:6)
Hulk, Charlie Gaston
AVENGERS #1 (3:6)
Charlie Gaston
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 – FB (8:2, 8:5-8:6)
Hulk
AVENGERS #1 (3:7-4:2)
Hulk, Charlie Gaston
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 – FB (9:1)
Hulk
AVENGERS #1 (4:3)
Hulk
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 – FB (9:2)
Hulk
AVENGERS #1 (4:4-4:6)
Rick Jones, Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 – FB (8:1, 8:3-8:4)
Charlie Gaston
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 (7:1-7:2)
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 (9:3-10:3)
Rick Jones, Bill Bishop (as Willie Bishop)
AVENGERS #1 (4:7)
Rick Jones, Bill Bishop (as Willie Bishop)
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 (10:4)
Rick Jones, Bill Bishop (as Willie Bishop)
AVENGERS #1 (4:8)
Rick Jones, [Bill Bishop (as Willie Bishop)]
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 (10:5-11:5)
Rick Jones, Bill Bishop (as Willie Bishop), Loki
AVENGERS #1 (4:9-5:2)
Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 (11:6-12:4)
Thor (as Don Blake), Jane Foster, [Kevin], [Mrs. Jarmush]
AVENGERS #1 (5:3-5:4)
Thor (as Don Blake)
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 (12:5-13:2)
Thor (as Don Blake)
AVENGERS #1 (5:5-5:6)
Thor
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 (13:3-13:4)
Thor, Rick Jones, Bill Bishop (as Willie Bishop), Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 (17-18)
Ant-Man (as Hank Pym), Wasp
AVENGERS #1 (5:7-5:9)
Ant-Man, Wasp
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 (14-16:1)
Iron Man (as Tony Stark), Pepper Potts
AVENGERS #1 (6:1-6:2)
Iron Man
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 (16:2-16:4)
Iron Man
AVENGERS #1 (6:3)
Iron Man
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 (16:5)
Iron Man
AVENGERS #1 (6:4-7:1)
Rick Jones, Bill Bishop (as Willie Bishop), Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman (Girl), Thing, Human Torch II
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 (19-21:1)
Thor, Rick Jones, Bill Bishop (as Willie Bishop), Sam
AVENGERS #1 (7:2)
Thor, Rick Jones, Bill Bishop (as Willie Bishop), Sam
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 (21:2-21:4)
Iron Man, Rick Jones
AVENGERS #1 (7:3)
Thor, Iron Man, Ant-Man, Wasp, Rick Jones, Bill Bishop (as Willie Bishop), Sam
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 (22)
Thor, Iron Man, Ant-Man, Wasp, Rick Jones, Bill Bishop (as Willie Bishop), Sam
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #2 (1-4)
Thor, Iron Man, Ant-Man, Wasp, Hulk, Rick Jones, Bill Bishop (as Willie Bishop), Sam, Bea
AVENGERS #1 (7:4-8:1)
Ant-Man, Wasp, Rick Jones, Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #2 (5-7)
(same day as A 1 (7-8);
Thor, Iron Man, Ant-Man, Wasp, Rick Jones, Bill Bishop (as Willie Bishop), Loki, [Mr. Fantastic]
AVENGERS #1 (8:2-8:3)
Thor, Iron Man, Rick Jones, Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #2 (8-14:1)
Thor, [Loki]
AVENGERS #1 (8:4-8:8)
Thor, [Loki]
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #2 (14:2-21:3)
Thor, Iron Man, Ant-Man, Wasp, Hulk, Rick Jones, Sam, Bea, Loki
AVENGERS #1 (9:1-9:3)
Thor, Iron Man, Rick Jones
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #2 (21:4-22)
Iron Man, Ant-Man, Wasp, Hulk, Rick Jones
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #3 (1-6)
Iron Man, Mr. Fantastic, Thor, Heimdall, Hulk
AVENGERS #1 (9:4-10:2)
Hulk
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #3 (7-10:4)
Hulk, Ant-Man, Wasp, Iron Man
AVENGERS #1 (10:3)
Ant-Man, Wasp, Iron Man
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #3 (10:5-11)
Ant-Man, Wasp, Iron Man
AVENGERS #1 (10:4-10:6)
Ant-Man, Wasp, Hulk
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #3 (12-13:2)
Hulk
AVENGERS #1 (10:7)
Hulk
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #3 (13:3-14)
Hulk, Iron Man
AVENGERS #1 (11:1)
Hulk
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #3 (15:1)
Hulk
AVENGERS #1 (11:2-11:3)
Hulk
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #3 (15:2-18:3)
Hulk, Ant-Man, Wasp, Iron Man
AVENGERS #1 (11:4-11:6)
Hulk, Ant-Man, Wasp
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #3 (18:4)
Ant-Man, Wasp, [Hulk]
AVENGERS #1 (12:7-13:1)
Hulk, Ant-Man, Wasp, Iron Man
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #3 (18:5-19)
Hulk, Iron Man
AVENGERS #1 (13:2-14)
Hulk, Ant-Man, Iron Man, Thor, Odin
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 (20:1-20:3)
Thor
AVENGERS #1 (15:1-15:5)
Thor
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #1 (20:4)
Thor
AVENGERS #1 (15:6)
Thor
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #3 (21:1-21:5)
Thor, Loki
AVENGERS #1 (16:1)
Thor
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #3 (21:6-21:7)
Thor, Loki
AVENGERS #1 (16:2-16:3)
Thor, Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #3 (22)
Thor, Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #4 (1-11)
Thor, Iron Man, Ant-Man, Wasp, Hulk, Loki
AVENGERS #1 (16:4-16:7)
Thor, Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #4 (12-13:1)
Thor, Loki
AVENGERS #1 (16:8-17:1)
Thor, Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #4 (13:2-13:3)
Loki, [Thor]
AVENGERS #1 (17:2-17:5)
Thor, Loki
AVENGERS #1 (19:1-19:3)
Iron Man, Hulk
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #4 (14-21:1)
Thor, Iron Man, Ant-Man, Wasp, Hulk, Loki
AVENGERS #1 (17:6)
Thor, Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #4 (21:2-21:5)
Thor, Loki
AVENGERS #1 (17:7)
Thor, Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #4 (21:6-22)
(same day as A 1 (17:7);
Thor, Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #5 (1-6:2)
Thor, Iron Man, Ant-Man, Wasp, Hulk, [Loki]
AVENGERS #1 (18:1)
Thor, Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #5 (6:3-6:4)
Thor, Loki
AVENGERS #1 (18:2-18:4)
Thor, Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #5 (7:1-7:3)
Thor, Loki
AVENGERS #1 (18:5-18:6)
Thor, Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #5 (7:4-7:5)
Thor, Loki
AVENGERS #1 (19:4-21:1)
Iron Man, Hulk
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #5 (8-9:1)
Iron Man, Ant-Man, Wasp, Hulk, [Thor], [Loki]
AVENGERS #1 (21:2)
Thor, Iron Man, Hulk, Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #5 (9:2-10:1)
Thor, Iron Man, Hulk, Loki
AVENGERS #1 (21:3)
Thor, Iron Man, Hulk, Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #5 (10:2-10:4)
Thor, Iron Man, Hulk, Loki
AVENGERS #1 (21:4-21:5)
Thor, Iron Man, Hulk, Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #5 (11:1-11:5)
Thor, Iron Man, Loki, [Hulk]
AVENGERS #1 (21:6-22:1)
Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #5 (11:6-12:2)
Ant-Man, Wasp, Loki
AVENGERS #1 (22:2-22:3)
Wasp, Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #5 (12:3)
Thor, Iron Man, Wasp
AVENGERS #1 (22:4-22:5b1)
Thor, Iron Man, Ant-Man, Wasp, Hulk, [Loki]
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #5 (12:4-14:3)
Thor, Iron Man, Wasp, Hulk, [Ant-Man]
AVENGERS #1 (22:5b2)
Ant-Man, Wasp
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #5 (14:4-14:5)
Thor, Iron Man, Ant-Man, Wasp, Hulk
AVENGERS #1 (22:6-22:8)
Thor, Iron Man, Ant-Man, Wasp, Hulk
IRON MAN v2 #11 (9-10) - FB
Thor, Iron Man, Hulk

AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #5 (15-23)
(“three days” later;
Thor, Iron Man, Ant-Man, Wasp, Hulk

AVENGERS #280 (4:4-6:3) - FB
Edwin Jarvis, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Wasp, Ant-Man
AVENGERS #227 (13:5) - FB
Thor, Wasp, Ant-Man
AVENGERS #280 (6:4-7:4) - FB
Edwin Jarvis, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Wasp, Ant-Man
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Re: Avengers: The Origin

Post by Russ Chappell » Sat Aug 07, 2010 4:41 pm

Paul Bourcier wrote:Now that Avengers: the Origin has wrapped up, here is my chronology for the series. Like many other continuity implant series, you have to squint hard to reconcile the different way things are depicted, but generally this series works. Yeah, the Teen Brigade is radically different in the new series, and yeah the Detroit auto plant was replaced by a Denver munitions plant, and yeah, a few panels in A 1 are now out of sequence, but I've seen a lot worse fits.

So here goes. Brackets indicate bts appearances.

AVENGERS #1 (16:1)
Thor
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #3 (21:6-21:7)
Thor, Loki
AVENGERS #1 (16:2-16:3)
Thor, Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #3 (22)
Thor, Loki
AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN #4 (1-8)
Thor, Iron Man, Ant-Man, Wasp, Hulk
AVENGERS #1 (16:1-16:3)
Thor, Loki
You have A 1 (16:1 - 16:3) listed twice.

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Re: Avengers: The Origin

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sat Aug 07, 2010 7:14 pm

Thanks for noticing that, Russ. I'll fix the listings.
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Re: Avengers: The Origin

Post by LordZorn » Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:40 pm

Paul B., my friend:

With all due respect for your Marvel-ous meticulousness, I am ***surprised*** that you would even consider this series for inclusion in the Canon. I -do- have the series, but will not include it in my collection since:

1. It does change Detroit for Denver
2. It does change the Teen Brigade from potential members of a healthily Eisenhowerian running segment of the Mickey Mouse Club(with Tim Considine as Rick<LOL>) about teen ham-radio enthusiasts into a bunch of quasi-anarchist hacker refugees from "Sneakers" or worse...
3. It changes the motivation for Hulk's misunderstood gallantry at the railroad tracks from a hallucination of dynamite wedged under the tracks to the hallucination of Loki's taunting face.

Admittedly, it has been a coon's age since I've read A1, but I don't remember the "Loki's face" deal, but I -do- remember the dynamite. I think this series was conceived as an "Ultimate-oid" re-imagining of the Assemblers' origin , probably with an eye toward hooking the new audience to be opened up by the slew of new comics-based movies in the coming months/years. Nothing wrong with this on its face, but the above deviations(and the general "sliding-timescale" tone of the series)should preclude its inclusion in the Project, don'tcha think??? IIRC, deviations from canon details of time/place, character/motive, and action such as the above do impugn a text's canonicity. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Sorry for being a purist stick-in-the-mud, but of such stuph are chronologists oft made<LOLaffectionately>.

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Re: Avengers: The Origin

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:24 pm

So, LordZorn, how do you deal with the intertwining of Iron Man's original origin story with all the various retcons that have been published in more recent years? Southeast Asia or Afghanistan, etc., etc.? :wink: Hasn't the MCP already incoporated such retcons into the canon?

To me, AVENGERS: THE ORIGIN didn't stray so far off-track that it can't be folded into established canon, albeit with some squinting here and there.

This is fodder for a good discussion. Anyone else care to offer an opinion?
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Re: Avengers: The Origin

Post by LordZorn » Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:12 pm

Paul B:

I think that a successful retcon adds details to a story already told, while leaving the original story intact. To answer your specific Iron Man query, I have always considered the Viet Nam origin to be the authentic one, all others being alternative universes, false memories, or other such panderings to a younger/less historically aware fan base. Some such pandering I find tolerable, eg. the inclusion/positing of the 24/7 cable-news cycle in "1963"(I *much* preferred seeing our old iconic pal, Walter Cronkite in A 1.5, though<LOL>). What I find inexcusable is the changing of major story details(time, place, sequential occurrences, and/or character traits) for no other -apparent- reason than the author's laziness in regards to research, a slightly hubristic wish to reboot history in "his/her own image"(cf. John Byrne's Hulk Annual/Marvel: The Lost Generation series) or "just for the sake of a good story". As in Byrne's case, it often falls to later authors to come up with outlandish "no-prize-worthy" explanations, or simply laugh it off dismissively. While I will admit, rather sheepishly, to not knowing how to deal with the "serial-killer Tony Stark" of "The Crossing" arc, I believe that this, as well as the equally ***uncomfortable*** contrivances involved in Spidey's OMD/BND series, prove my point: sometimes the search for novelty or "accessibility"ends up ruining/devaluing/disrespecting the original story concept. I will leave you with this silly reductio ad absurdum to chew on: How would you feel if, in future, some well-tanned Millennial writer decided, on a whim. to retcon Shellhead's origin to have occurred during the "invasion" of "Grenada or the "Falkland Islands War"??? Or if Bruce had become the Hulk during the "accidental" explosion of a gamma warhead precipitated by a bunch of quasi-anarchistic hackers led by one Rick Jones??? These sound like good stories for Brand Ecch or Startling Stories, but have little to do with Mr. Lee's original intent.

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Re: Avengers: The Origin

Post by Chris McCarver » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:03 pm

With the Marvel Universe perpetually held at a span of 12-15 years, such retellings with the timeframe shifted more recent are going to keep happening. It all depends on which suspension of disbelief you want to go with, that the modern-day Marvel Universe's starting point was in the Clinton era instead of the 1960s, or that the "Year One" characters have only aged a decade at most when their heroic debuts occurred over half a century ago. And as for Stan Lee's original intent, I doubt even he could have predicted that we'd still be enjoying the tales of these characters nearly fifty years later. :)
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Re: Avengers: The Origin

Post by Leoparis » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:36 am

I have no problems with retellings. In fact I embrace them. As classic as they are, 60s stories are outmoded. They were written for children and it is in the interest of the characters to stay modern. It's convenient for the US to have had wars like Iraq and Afghanistan to substitute to Vietnam. Maybe one time there won't be any recent wars and Iron Man's origin will outmode the character. There hasn't been any nuclear essays in the US since the 50s and the Hulk origin is usually limlted to one panel of Banner being irradiated or told differently in other media.
Modernizing characters and their origin is all the difference between keeping them relevant and have them become stale and passé. This cannot be a nostalgia-driven business where crude stories made for children 50 years ago are revered.

As an example of a retold story I recently analysed, Spider-Man: Blue, the change of sequence wasn't lazyness but was done to streamline the story, omit repeat occurences done for a serial magazine but redundant for a limited series to be collected. Sticking slavishly to the original stories would have been the lazy approach (and would have made the retelling totally unnecessary.)

Thanks to Busiek, Casey, new readers can read the debut of Iron Man and Avengers with Avengers: The Origin and World's Mightiest Heroes I and II, and Iron Age and Enter the Mandarin.

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Re: Avengers: The Origin

Post by Somebody » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:35 pm

My basic position is to look at what's changed. Clothing is virtually inevitable, as is civillian tech and references thereto (which includes stuff like "24/7 cable news), and certain political aspects to reflect things like the Fall of the Soviet Union. But if we're radically changing character motivations or methodologies in ways beyond those changes I mentioned above, that's something that needs to be thought twice about.

Now, I haven't read A:ORIGIN, but the Teen Brigade was a big part of early Avengers and occasionally extended into other series like Thor - and, of course, Rick Jones is around to this day. If there are major changes beyond things like updating "ham radio club" to "internet club", that's the sort of thing to think twice about.
Last edited by Somebody on Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Split post between "Avengers: The Origin" and "Continuity & Canon" topics

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Re: Avengers: The Origin

Post by Russ Chappell » Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:59 pm

I'm more likely to accept a retcon that says, "What you think happened, didn't really happen that way, and here's why." Busiek & Stern are particularly adept at this, and Roy Thomas, to a lesser extent. But when I read a story that says, "This is what happened," and that's it (by two writers who shall remain nameless), and I know it happened differently, that's a much tougher sell.
Last edited by Somebody on Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Split post between "Avengers: The Origin" and "Continuity & Canon" topics

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Re: Avengers: The Origin

Post by Paul Bourcier » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:12 am

Would anyone care to return to the discussion about Avengers: The Origin, specifically? :wink:

There's squinting involved, but is the amount of squinting so much that it crosses the line of non-canonicity? Discuss.
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Re: Avengers: The Origin

Post by LordZorn » Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:56 am

Guys:

Denver is not Detroit. Loki's face in the ground is not a vanishing bundle of dynamite. And again, quasi-anarchistic hackers are not quite even an "updated Internet club" . The facts are changed, not just the tone. I think, on -that- basis alone, the stretch is too big and the squint too large. But if the mighty Bourcier can make it fit, more power to him!!!

As far as "old stories being irrelevant", that's why, on the one hand, we have stuff like Turner Classic Movies, "golden oldies" radio, and why, indeed, we have editions of the Iliad, Odyssey and other tales of ancient heroes( as "relevant" and inspirational today as they were 3000 years ago; and on the other hand we ***do***have the Ultimate-verse" for those of us who just can't imagine Spidey without a cell-phone<LOL> I, for one, am not willing to abandon historical/cultural context for the sake of convenience, and I -do- think some of the Bullpen would think "antique cultural" references ***might *** even encourage a little curiosity among young readers about such subjects as Vietnam, the arms race, the space race...or even the Watusi<LOL>

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Re: Avengers: The Origin

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:38 am

Yup. Denver is not Detroit, but Afghanistan isn't Southeast Asia either. Am I happy with Marvel's retcon details? Hell, no. But there is precedent for merging original material with re-tellings whose details don't quite fit. I think we can make it fit -- albeit with the aforementioned squinting -- and the chronology above is my attempt at doing so. How does this chronology look? Is it the best way to reconcile A 1 with A:O?

FWIW, the solicit for the Avengers: The Origin TPB says,
"The true story of the Avengers is revealed right here! This extravaganza reveals previously untold details of the historic first meeting of Thor, Iron Man, the Hulk, Ant-Man and the Wasp! You only THINK you know the full story."

This whole thing makes me wonder how the forthcoming Captain America: Man Out of Time will fare against established canon for the early Avengers...
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Re: Avengers: The Origin

Post by Enda80 » Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:14 am

Chris McCarver wrote:With the Marvel Universe perpetually held at a span of 12-15 years, such retellings with the timeframe shifted more recent are going to keep happening. It all depends on which suspension of disbelief you want to go with, that the modern-day Marvel Universe's starting point was in the Clinton era instead of the 1960s, or that the "Year One" characters have only aged a decade at most when their heroic debuts occurred over half a century ago. And as for Stan Lee's original intent, I doubt even he could have predicted that we'd still be enjoying the tales of these characters nearly fifty years later. :)
I think you meant the 1990's.

Regarding whether Stan Lee thought we would still have these series running today; hey, Nick Carter and Sexton Blake started in the 1880's and 1890's respectively and still had new stories in the 1960's and later.

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Re: Avengers: The Origin

Post by JephYork » Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:39 am

...I think he meant the 1960s.

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