M/TU 118

[Michael]

Currently we have M/TU 118 placed after M/GN 1 in Spider-Man's chronology. However, we have M/TU 118 placed before M/GN 1 in Colossus's, Professor X's, Shadowcat's and Wolverine's chronologies. Spider-Man's chronology is correct. M/GN 1 takes place before Nighthawk's "death" in DEF 106 and it's a plot point in M/TU 118 that Professor Power needs Xavier because of what happened to his telepaths in DEF 106.

[Michael]

OK, I found the discussion in Archive 81:

Posted: 01 Mar 2007 09:06 am Post subject: Marvel Team-up 117, 118
By Lucifer

I noticed in Wolverine's chronology that's these issues are placed in between pages of Uncanny X-Men 161.

Marvel team-up 118 features the danger room and the X-Men's mansion. Which were destroyed by the Sidri in Uncanny X-Men 154. The mansion was rebuild in Uncanny X-Men 164, while Wolverine was in space fighting the Brood.

So I suggest moving Marvel Team-up 117 & 118 to before the destruction of the mansion. Between Uncanny X-Men 153 and 154.

UX 153
M/GN 1
SS@ 6-FB-BTS
XU 29/2
M/FAN 4
M/TU 117
M/TU 118
UX 154
Not completely sure where, since I don't own all these issues.

Same goes for Collosus, Prof. X and Kitty Pryde who appear in Marvel Team-up 118 only.

* * *

Posted: 01 Mar 2007 10:05 pm
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Lucifer said:
>>>
So I suggest moving Marvel Team-up 117 & 118 to before the destruction of the mansion. Between Uncanny X-Men 153 and 154.
<<<

That is indeed where the Official Marvel Index to the Uncanny X-Men, vol. 2 #3 has M/TU 117-118 -- between UX 153 and M/GN 1.
_________________
Paul B.

Unfortunately, this doesn't work- as mentioned above M/TU 117-118 HAVE to take place after DEF 106. According to the Index, DEF 106 takes place after A 216, which takes place after UX 155-156. Are we sure that the mansion couldn't have been rebuilt between pages of UX 161?
Alternately, are we sure that DEF 106 takes place after A 216?

[Jason Doty]

The earliest that M/TU 117 and 118 after your suggestion would be between UX 167 and 168. The X-Men also appear in Contest of Champions during this time period which is after A 216. The only glitch in this would be Kitty's attitude of being demoted to the New Mutants between UX 167 and 168, but I don't think it was convayed in any other of the books shown during that time period either.

[Michael]

OK, I just checked Spider-Man's chronology- we have Peter's appearances in M/TU 117-118 prior to his appearance in FF 250. And FF 250 is mentioned in UX 167. So if Peter's chronology is correct, M/TU 117-118 must take place before UX 167. So it looks like we've got four choices:
(1) Move DEF 106 before A 216 in Cap's chronology and place M/TU 117-118 prior to UX 154.
(2) Place M/TU 117-118 between pages of UX 161.
(3) Place M/TU 117-118 after UX 167 and move M/TU 117-118 after FF 250 in Peter's chronology.
(4) Try to place M/TU 117-118 prior to DEF 106. This would involve ignoring all contradictory dialogue and ignoring the fact that the reason Power needed Xavier was because Kyle blew up his telepaths in DEF 106. It would also require Peter and Xavier to be incompetents who don't remove any psi-dampers and read Power's mind to see if he's holding any other telepaths prisoner.
Option 4 is the kind of tampering with the stories that we avoid unless there's no other choice. Personally, I favor option 2 and I think it was a mistake to move M/TU 117-118.

[JephYork]

We should talk about this one a little more. When WAS the mansion rebuilt?

-Jeph!

[Michael]

My bad- we're shown Sh'iar drones reconstructing the mansion in UX 163 (I forgot about the drones in UX 163) and we see the rebuilt mansion in UX 164. The mansion seems to be fully intact in M/TU 118. Now I'm not sure what we should do.

[JephYork]

Well we've got about four days to come up with a solution that can make it to print... :-/

-Jeph!

[Col_Fury]

CA 268 is the first part of a story that continues into DEF 106-107, which in turn eventually continues into M/TU 117-118. All of these books were written by JM DeMetteis; it's a chain that can't be broken.

Here's Spider-Man's chronology at this time:

...
PPTSS 65
SS3 14-FB
M/GN 1 (Nighthawk alive)
CA 265
CA 266
FF 242
ASM 513 (2:3)-FB
FF 243
DEF 107 (Nighthawk dead)
DEF 108
DEF 109
PPTSS 66
ASM 228
PPTSS 67
A 221
ASM 229
ASM 230
PPTSS 68
M/TU 117 (continued from DEF 107)
M/TU 118
...

Maybe I'm missing something, but what's wrong with UX 153 -> M/GN 1 -> M/TU 117 -> UX 154 for the X-Characters?

[Michael]

The problem is that Tigra is clearly an active Avenger in UX 155-156. And as you noted, DEF 107 is placed after FF 243. FF 244 explicitly refers to A 216, where Tigra leaves the Avengers, and continues from FF 243. So if we wanted to place UX 154 after M/TU 117, we'd have to re-arrange everyone's chronology so that DEF 107 occurs before FF 243. And that's problematic because Hulk, Namor and Daimon get stuck in an alternate dimension in DEF 107-109 and don't make it back until DEF 115, so that might cause problems with other chronologies.
Here's another suggestion- is there any reason we can't just assume, that *despite appearances in the art*, the mansion was *partially* rebuilt in M/TU 118, the X-Men decided to try out living there to see how it felt, and later they were *finishing* rebuilding the mansion in UX 163? That way, M/TU 118 can take place between pages of UX 161.

[JephYork]

Michael -- I hate to keep saying this, because I really feel like I'm being dumb every time I do -- but it's really difficult for me to follow your arguments sometimes.

To me, it just reads like "the problem is, a b c. But don't forget, d e f, so if we want x y z we'll have to p d q, then rlfgkkbkfgbkbkfbfvkafgvbakrgb." I can't seem to remember the relation that each part has to the other parts, and you don't tend to stop and remind your readers at each step of your logic process. And it's all chunked together in one enormous paragraph, so I keep losing my place. I get mentally halfway through one point -- "okay, he's saying that Avengers 216 has to go before Def 107" -- and then you move on to something else and I completely lose the connection that Def 107 has to the X-Men series.

I had to sit there and type this whole thing out for myself so I could follow what you just said. Fact-check me -- am I right?

UX 156 (Tigra is an Avenger) -> A 216 (Tigra leaves Avengers -> MGN 1 (prior to FF 243 in Spidey's chrono, X-Men appear, Nighthawk alive) -> FF 243 (before Def 107 for some reason) -> FF 244 (continued right from FF 243, refers to A 216) -> Def 107 (Nighthawk dead, after FF 243 for some reason) -> MTU 117 (after Def 107, X-Men appear in mansion)

...sooooo, MTU 117 has to be after UX 156, and after MGN 1.

Now, in Spider-Man's chrono, we have MTu 117 before FF 250 -- and FF 250 is before UX 167 in the FF's chronologies. Right?

MTU 117-118 -> FF 250 -> UX 167

But, the X-Men are in the mansion in MTU 117, and the mansion is rebuilt in UX 163-164, while the X-Men are off-Earth, right?

So either we rearrange Spidey's chronology to have MTU 117-118 after FF 250, and after UX 167 ... or we come up with a reason that the mansion *looks* finished in MTU 117, but it isn't?

Is that right?

How much of the mansion do we actually *see* in MTU 117? How much do we see in 163? Is it possible that one wing was completely finished before they started work on the other wing?

If MTU 117 shows a completely intact mansion, and UX 163 shows a bare-bones framework, we've got a problem...

How much of a problem is moving MTU 117-118 forward in Spidey's chronology? What weird knock-on effects will this cause? How far forward does that move it?

-Jeph!

[Jason Doty]

UX 163 shows the frame of the mansion. MTU 118 shows a completley intact mansion.

[Michael]

Michael -- I hate to keep saying this, because I really feel like I'm being dumb every time I do -- but it's really difficult for me to follow your arguments sometimes.

To me, it just reads like "the problem is, a b c. But don't forget, d e f, so if we want x y z we'll have to p d q, then rlfgkkbkfgbkbkfbfvkafgvbakrgb." I can't seem to remember the relation that each part has to the other parts, and you don't tend to stop and remind your readers at each step of your logic process. And it's all chunked together in one enormous paragraph, so I keep losing my place. I get mentally halfway through one point -- "okay, he's saying that Avengers 216 has to go before Def 107" -- and then you move on to something else and I completely lose the connection that Def 107 has to the X-Men series.

Sorry about that. Sometimes this stuff is complicated. And sometimes I should explain it better.

I had to sit there and type this whole thing out for myself so I could follow what you just said. Fact-check me -- am I right?

UX 156 (Tigra is an Avenger) -> A 216 (Tigra leaves Avengers -> MGN 1 (prior to FF 243 in Spidey's chrono, X-Men appear, Nighthawk alive) -> FF 243 (before Def 107 for some reason) -> FF 244 (continued right from FF 243, refers to A 216) -> Def 107 (Nighthawk dead, after FF 243 for some reason) -> MTU 117 (after Def 107, X-Men appear in mansion)

...sooooo, MTU 117 has to be after UX 156, and after MGN 1.

Yeah. We could try to move DEF 107 before FF 243 but I'm not sure what the ripple effects would be. I double-checked- the ending of DEF 109 has Strange going looking for Namor, Hulk and Daimon and he doesn't return until DEF 115. So we've got half the Defenders bottled up in other dimensions from DEF 109 to DEF 115, and the other half making guest appearances in various comics between DEF 109 and DEF 115. So if we moved DEF 107 before FF 243, for example, then DEF 115 would have to be moved before FF 243. And all the comics where the Defenders guest-star would have to be moved.

Now, in Spider-Man's chrono, we have MTu 117 before FF 250 -- and FF 250 is before UX 167 in the FF's chronologies. Right?

MTU 117-118 -> FF 250 -> UX 167

But, the X-Men are in the mansion in MTU 117, and the mansion is rebuilt in UX 163-164, while the X-Men are off-Earth, right?

So either we rearrange Spidey's chronology to have MTU 117-118 after FF 250, and after UX 167 ... or we come up with a reason that the mansion *looks* finished in MTU 117, but it isn't?

Is that right?

How much of the mansion do we actually *see* in MTU 117? How much do we see in 163? Is it possible that one wing was completely finished before they started work on the other wing?

If MTU 117 shows a completely intact mansion, and UX 163 shows a bare-bones framework, we've got a problem...

Like Jason pointed out, we've got a problem.

How much of a problem is moving MTU 117-118 forward in Spidey's chronology? What weird knock-on effects will this cause? How far forward does that move it?

-Jeph!

Well, we would have to assume M/TU 117-118 take place out of sequence. We're arguing about the placement of FF 250 right now. M/TU 117-118 would definitely have to take place before M/TU 124, since that's Professor Power's next appearance, and he's *ranting about wanting revenge for the events of M/TU 117-118* in M/TU 124. I honestly have no clue what any ripple effects would be in moving it that far forward.

[JephYork]

MTU is a rare example of a series that's already had some issues deliberately moved out of sequence by previous Official Indexes. I'd argue that if need be, we can justify doing it again to MTU far more easily than to other series.

-Jeph!

[Michael]

I guess you're right Jeph- moving M/TU 118 seems like the least complicated of our options. But does anyone remember any references to M/TU 117-118 before M/TU 124? I can't think of any offhand, but can anyone else?

[JephYork]

Okay -- Col_Fury and I just had a 90-minute phone convrsation about this, and we figured some stuff out.

We chewed over the various options over and over until we were blue in the face -- and here's what we found.

MTU #118 continues into #119, and #120 makes reference to the arc. #119-120 also make references to other then-current Spidey storylines. So we CAN'T just pick MTU #117-118 up and deposit them later in Spidey's chronology, after FF #250.

Nether can we move MTU #117-118 back before UX #154, because the whole Tigra thing is rock-solid.

So our only option seems to be to insert a gap in UX #161, and put the MTU issues there.

We see the *entire* mansion in MTU #118, from the outside. We also see the Danger Room -- but that's *all* we see of the inside.

Fury and I settled on the notion that, after the mansion was destroyed in #154, that the Shi'ar did indeed start rebuilding circa #161 -- and the first thing they rebuilt was the Danger Room. It was during this time that they installed the holographic Shi'ar tech, but even though we don't see any here, that's not a problem -- in NM #1, the holographic Danger Room simulated the old Danger Room, so we know that's one of its capabilities.

Sadly, in UX #163, we distinctly see a large pit where the X-Mansion used to be, with girders. So how do we explain the intact-mansion-seen-from-outside in MTU #118?

Well, take your pick: "holographic disguise" (the same excuse Brian Braddock's mansion used in CB issues, to hide its destroyed state while rebuilding "under" the hologram) -- or plain-and-simple art error. Pick your favorite, rationalize it off and be done with it. The important bit is that we don't see any mansion interiors *except* the Danger Room in MTU #118.

So -- there we have it. Gap in #161, mansion state conveniently sidestepped, MTU issues go there. The end.

Annnnnnd, just enough time to insert this change into the TPB before it goes off to the printers...

-Jeph!