OK, Iron Man Legacy 9 is out. According to a footnote this story arc takes place around IM 188. Let's see if that's possible.
It looks like Paul's first instincts were correct. Tony wasn't homeless- that was just a rumor the Illuminati heard. Apparently, he was exaggerating in Legacy 7 when he said he was homeless- what he meant was he was staying with Rhodey and the Erwins. So that means that the Illuminati's appearance in Legacy 6 takes place after IM 185. Charles refers to sleeping with Lilandra in Legacy 6- Lilandra was in space at the time but I suppose we can assume that she briefly returned to Earth in an untold story.
The main problem is the Serpent Society. Puff Adder appears as a member of the Society- that's impossible since he joined after CA 338, which takes place around the Armor Wars (IM 225-232). So his appearance is impossible. But what if we pull a Tigra and say Puff Adder's appearance was a mistake? Even if we do that, we still have problems. The Serpent Society were first formed in CA 310. CA 308 takes place immediately after SWII 1, as does IM 197. So CA 310 has to take place after SWII 1, and therefore after IM 196. But is it possible to ignore the footnote and place Legacy 6-9 after SWII 1?
In Legacy 9, Rhodey tells Tony Morley Erwin was worried about him. Morley Erwin dies in IM 199, so Legacy 6-9 have to take place before IM 199. Placing Legacy 6-9 after SWII 1 creates problems. First, Tony shaves in IM 196. Tony has a beard in Legacy 6-9- it's referenced both in the art and the dialogue. Second, it's hard to imagine Tony pulling a disappearing act after SWII 1. In IM 197, Tony arrives at Circuits Maximus and asks what the emergency was in SWII 1. Morley tells him Bethany called, and will call back in an hour. Meanwhile, Rhodey tells him about Thundersword. When Bethany calls back, she's grabbed by Stane's and Madame Masque's goons. Tony goes to rescue her and fails, while Rhodey goes to fight Thundersword. In IM 200-201, Stane dies and Bethany is seemingly rescued while Madame Masque is sent to jail. (In reality, Whitney switched bodies with Bethany.) But the point is that placing Legacy 6-9 between SWII 1 and Morley's death would mean placing it while Bethany is kidnapped. It's hard to imagine Tony doing everything he's doing in Legacy 6-9 instead of looking for Bethany. Third, the Pride is surprised to find out Iron Man is in LA in Legacy 6. The West Coast Avengers (with Iron Man as a member) had been operating very publicly for quite some time before SWII 1. It's hard to imagine the Pride not knowing.
Another problem is that Tony knows Sidewinder is the leader of the Serpent Society in Legacy 8 and references having been sent a file by SHIELD about Sidewinder. In CA 314, which takes place after IM 200, Captain America has no clue who the leader of the Society is until he sets a trap for Sidewinder. It's possible Nick and Tony forgot to tell Steve, but still...
I'd say that Legacy 6-9 still are out of continuity, unless someone can come up with explanations regarding the Society.
Illuminati (Especially Professor X) in Iron Man Legacy 6
Moderators: Col_Fury, michel, Arthur, Somebody, StrayLamb
Re: Illuminati (Especially Professor X) in Iron Man Legacy 6
Well, I'll take a shot at this...
First, the Serpent Squad appearances in CA 307-309 become flashbacks instead of appearances occuring at the same time as the main Cap storyline. Clearly Sidewinder tried to start the Society earlier than we thought. Legacy then has to be after the Serp Squad appearance in IM 160, but can happen at virtually any point after that and before CA 310 (note: I haven't tried to match Cobra up in this, which could potentially be a problem; I have no idea there).
Sidewinder starts a test Serpent Society, or else started the Society in the manner we see in IM:Legacy and then, armed with what worked and what didn't, started/restarted the group as we see in CA 310. The IM:Legacy appearance seems to have to predate CA 310; this is one way to do it.
So, Puff Adder was apparently recruited into that initial (IM:Legacy) group. So, for reasons we haven't seen, Puff Adder did not join the later (CA 310) Society. Maybe he decided it wasn't for him; maybe Sidewinder rejected him. But before CA 310, he was gone.
When we see Sidey meet PA in CA 338, and when PA and the other three meet the Society in 341, there's nothing that irrevocably says PA could never have met the others earlier.
Finally, Stark doesn't actually know about the Serpent Society in IM:Legacy. He knows about the Serpent _Squad_ from files submitted by the Thing (re: MTIO 64-66). Stark even had cause to read up on them, having met the Squad (minus Sidewinder)in IM 160. When one of the Serpents in IM Legacy mentioned the Serpent Society (apparently off panel), Stark naturally used that phrase. Further evidence - Stark knows Sidewinder is Nth Projector powered. He has to know the Roxxon connection to know that, and that comes out of MTIO, not Cap's later meeting with Sidey.
Inelegant in some places, but it looks like it is at least possible, with some work, to make it fit.
First, the Serpent Squad appearances in CA 307-309 become flashbacks instead of appearances occuring at the same time as the main Cap storyline. Clearly Sidewinder tried to start the Society earlier than we thought. Legacy then has to be after the Serp Squad appearance in IM 160, but can happen at virtually any point after that and before CA 310 (note: I haven't tried to match Cobra up in this, which could potentially be a problem; I have no idea there).
Sidewinder starts a test Serpent Society, or else started the Society in the manner we see in IM:Legacy and then, armed with what worked and what didn't, started/restarted the group as we see in CA 310. The IM:Legacy appearance seems to have to predate CA 310; this is one way to do it.
So, Puff Adder was apparently recruited into that initial (IM:Legacy) group. So, for reasons we haven't seen, Puff Adder did not join the later (CA 310) Society. Maybe he decided it wasn't for him; maybe Sidewinder rejected him. But before CA 310, he was gone.
When we see Sidey meet PA in CA 338, and when PA and the other three meet the Society in 341, there's nothing that irrevocably says PA could never have met the others earlier.
Finally, Stark doesn't actually know about the Serpent Society in IM:Legacy. He knows about the Serpent _Squad_ from files submitted by the Thing (re: MTIO 64-66). Stark even had cause to read up on them, having met the Squad (minus Sidewinder)in IM 160. When one of the Serpents in IM Legacy mentioned the Serpent Society (apparently off panel), Stark naturally used that phrase. Further evidence - Stark knows Sidewinder is Nth Projector powered. He has to know the Roxxon connection to know that, and that comes out of MTIO, not Cap's later meeting with Sidey.
Inelegant in some places, but it looks like it is at least possible, with some work, to make it fit.
Re: Illuminati (Especially Professor X) in Iron Man Legacy 6
Cobra's no problem- his last appearance before CA 309 is COH 3, which takes place around IM 182.oenglish wrote:First, the Serpent Squad appearances in CA 307-309 become flashbacks instead of appearances occuring at the same time as the main Cap storyline. Clearly Sidewinder tried to start the Society earlier than we thought. Legacy then has to be after the Serp Squad appearance in IM 160, but can happen at virtually any point after that and before CA 310 (note: I haven't tried to match Cobra up in this, which could potentially be a problem; I have no idea there).
But in CA 338, Puff Adder tells Sidewinder his name is Puff Adder. That implies they've never met. Also, if Puff Adder and Sidewinder knew each other prior to CA 338, then why did Puff Adder feel the need to commit a robbery with three other villains and get caught in order to get invited back into the Serpent Society? It would be simpler just to write off Puff Adder's appearance as an error, since removing Puff Adder doesn't significantly change the plot.oenglish wrote:So, Puff Adder was apparently recruited into that initial (IM:Legacy) group. So, for reasons we haven't seen, Puff Adder did not join the later (CA 310) Society. Maybe he decided it wasn't for him; maybe Sidewinder rejected him. But before CA 310, he was gone.
When we see Sidey meet PA in CA 338, and when PA and the other three meet the Society in 341, there's nothing that irrevocably says PA could never have met the others earlier.
Okay, but then we still have the problem of why Tony didn't tell Steve about Sidewinder before CA 314. I guess that with everything that was happening in his mag between IM 188 and CA 314 (Rhodey developing mental problems, Bethany being kidnapped, Morley Erwin dying), Tony forgot until after CA 314.oenglish wrote:Finally, Stark doesn't actually know about the Serpent Society in IM:Legacy. He knows about the Serpent _Squad_ from files submitted by the Thing (re: MTIO 64-66). Stark even had cause to read up on them, having met the Squad (minus Sidewinder)in IM 160. When one of the Serpents in IM Legacy mentioned the Serpent Society (apparently off panel), Stark naturally used that phrase. Further evidence - Stark knows Sidewinder is Nth Projector powered. He has to know the Roxxon connection to know that, and that comes out of MTIO, not Cap's later meeting with Sidey.
Maybe your solution can work.
ETA: And maybe it won't. In CA 309, Anaconda invites the Constrictor to join the Serpent Society, and in CA 310 the Constrictor attends the meeting, and says no. That really doesn't work unless the Constrictor scene in CA 310 takes place shortly after CA 309. Unless we want to argue that the scene in CA 309 where Sidewinder recruits Cobra is a flashback but the scene where Anaconda recruits the Constrictor isn't a flashback, it looks like the recruitment scenes in CA 309 take place very shortly before CA 310.
Re: Illuminati (Especially Professor X) in Iron Man Legacy 6
Okay, the arc in Iron Man Legacy 6-11 is over. So are we considering it in continuity or not?
The biggest problem remains the Serpent Society. If the arc takes place before SWII 1, as the footnote in issue 9 and Tony's beard indicate, then the Serpent Society shouldn't exist. Legacy 11 offers further evidence that the arc is supposed to take place before SWII 1- Xavier uses his telepathic powers against Molly Hayes's parents. Xavier had trouble using his telepathic powers after SWII 1 because he was dying. (Although he does use them in Illuminati 4, which we placed after SWII 1.) And we can't say that Legacy 6-11 take place before the Society existed and the Travelers brought the Serpent Society back in time- Tony knows of the Society from a file Nick Fury gave him.
Also, at the end of the story, the Illuminati know of the Pride's activities and the Pride know that they know. In issue 12 of the original Runaways series, the Pride wipe Cloak's and Dagger's memories of their existence, and one of the Pride remarks that they haven't cut it this close since the Wonder Man incident a few years back. The obvious implication of that scene is that no superheroes are aware of the Pride's existence, although there are other ways to interpret it.
Incidentally, Namor seems to be King of Atlantis at the time of this story- Tony basically threatens to send the Atlanteans after the Pride and Namor mentions that he was in the middle of a meeting with the Atlantean Council when Strange contacted him. If this is in continuity, maybe we can use it to narrow down when SUB-M2 1-4 occur, since we've disagreed about that in the past.
My vote is for out of continuity. Even if we can shoehorn in the Serpent Society's appearance and the Illuminati knowing about the Pride, the ending means that the Illuminati were aware that an innocent woman was being sacrificed by the Pride each year (and even knew the date, assuming they could count) and did nothing about it. Why? To protect the people of Imperio? They'd be dead with the rest of the planet once the 25 years was up. So basically we've got to shoehorn in the Society and the Illuminati's knowledge of the Pride, but also accept that the Illuminati basically did nothing about a group sacrificing women to destroy the world.
The biggest problem remains the Serpent Society. If the arc takes place before SWII 1, as the footnote in issue 9 and Tony's beard indicate, then the Serpent Society shouldn't exist. Legacy 11 offers further evidence that the arc is supposed to take place before SWII 1- Xavier uses his telepathic powers against Molly Hayes's parents. Xavier had trouble using his telepathic powers after SWII 1 because he was dying. (Although he does use them in Illuminati 4, which we placed after SWII 1.) And we can't say that Legacy 6-11 take place before the Society existed and the Travelers brought the Serpent Society back in time- Tony knows of the Society from a file Nick Fury gave him.
Also, at the end of the story, the Illuminati know of the Pride's activities and the Pride know that they know. In issue 12 of the original Runaways series, the Pride wipe Cloak's and Dagger's memories of their existence, and one of the Pride remarks that they haven't cut it this close since the Wonder Man incident a few years back. The obvious implication of that scene is that no superheroes are aware of the Pride's existence, although there are other ways to interpret it.
Incidentally, Namor seems to be King of Atlantis at the time of this story- Tony basically threatens to send the Atlanteans after the Pride and Namor mentions that he was in the middle of a meeting with the Atlantean Council when Strange contacted him. If this is in continuity, maybe we can use it to narrow down when SUB-M2 1-4 occur, since we've disagreed about that in the past.
My vote is for out of continuity. Even if we can shoehorn in the Serpent Society's appearance and the Illuminati knowing about the Pride, the ending means that the Illuminati were aware that an innocent woman was being sacrificed by the Pride each year (and even knew the date, assuming they could count) and did nothing about it. Why? To protect the people of Imperio? They'd be dead with the rest of the planet once the 25 years was up. So basically we've got to shoehorn in the Society and the Illuminati's knowledge of the Pride, but also accept that the Illuminati basically did nothing about a group sacrificing women to destroy the world.