BW4 4

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

Moderators: Paul Bourcier, Kevin W., Col_Fury, Arthur, JephYork, Somebody

Locked
User avatar
Russ Chappell
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4312
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:40 pm
Location: Tuscaloosa, AL
Contact:

BW4 4

Post by Russ Chappell » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:22 pm

Can anyone place Natasha's flashbacks in BW4 4? She appears to be about 12 years old, and taking ballet lessons, as part of the Soviet Black Widow program.

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6310
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: BW4 4

Post by Col_Fury » Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:20 am

If no one jumps on this in the next... 16 hours, I'll be all over it.
-Daron Jensen

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6310
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: BW4 4

Post by Col_Fury » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:34 pm

Marvel Fanfare #10 has two flashbacks in Black Widow's early chronology, but I don't have Marvel Fanfare #10. What happens in these flashbacks?
-Daron Jensen

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6310
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: BW4 4

Post by Col_Fury » Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:37 pm

As long as I'm here, I threw in all the flashbacks from Black Widow: Deadly Origin #1, and most of them from #2.(which takes us up to her first appearance in ToS #52) I'm only suggesting these for Black Widow and not any other characters, so they're in brackets.

BW4 reveals that Natasha has false memory implants.(just like Wolverine!) BW4 4 does have a flashback that "counts" but it's not the ballernia one; it's the one a few pages later where she's being brainwashed. Black Widow: Deadly Origin reinforces these memory implants, and reiterates what BW4 4-FB reveals, that Natasha was never a bellerina. Never ever. This means that any flashback showing her to be a ballerina didn't really happen, and we need to delete SOLOA 7/2-FB from her chronology.(she's a ballerina in it)

Where the M/FAN 10-FBs are currently placed makes me wonder... is she doing ballerina stuff in them? M/FAN 10 (7:2)-FB is currently right before DD 88 (10:2b)-FB, which says she's a really good athlete. And then later, M/FAN 10-FB is placed right before SOLOA 7/2-FB, which shows her winning a medal for being a ballerina. If she's doing ballerina stuff in either of these, they should be deleted from her chronology. If she's not, I would still like to know what happens in those flashbacks, if only to make sure they're placed correctly.

So having said all of that, here are the proposed changes to the Black Widow's chronology:

BLACK WIDOW II/NATALIA ALIANOVNA ROMANOVA/"NATASHA ROMANOFF"
*W:O 9-FB (move from here)
DD 88 (8:4 - 9:3)-FB
*[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 1 (13:1-13:2)-FB]
DD 88 (9:4)-FB
*[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 1 (13:3)-FB]
DD 88 (9:5)-FB
*[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 1 (13:4)-FB]
DD 88 (10:1)-FB
*[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 1 (14)-FB]
DD 88 (10:2a)-FB
M/FAN 10 (7:2)-FB <what happens here?>
*DD 88 (10:2b)-FB
*W:O 9 (3-8)-FB (move to here)
*BW4 4-FB
*DD 88 (10:2c)-FB
*[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 1 (15-16)-FB]
*W:O 9 (9-18)-FB
*[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 1 (17)-FB
*A 44-FB (move from here)
*DD 88 (10:2d)-FB (move from here)

UX 268 (14)-FB
W:O 16 (10 - 12)-FB
UX 268 (15 - 17)-FB
W:O 16 (16:1 - 16:3)-FB
UX 268 (20:1 - 20:4)-FB
W:O 16 (16:4)-FB
UX 268 (20:5 - 21:?)-FB
W:O 16 (17 - 19)-FB
UX 268 (22)-FB
*[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 1 (19)-FB]
*[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 2 (4-8)-FB]
*DD 88 (10:2d)-FB (move to here)
*A 44-FB (move to here)
*[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 2 (12-14)-FB]

W2 -1
BFF:BGL 1
BFF:BGL 2
BFF:BGL 3
M/FAN 10 (page/panel)-FB <what happens here?>
**SOLOA 7/2-FB (delete)
{TOS 52 (1 - 4)}
*[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 2 (17)-FB]
TOS 52 (5-12)


And a cleaned up/end result version:

BLACK WIDOW II/NATALIA ALIANOVNA ROMANOVA/"NATASHA ROMANOFF"
DD 88 (8:4 - 9:3)-FB
[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 1 (13:1-13:2)-FB]
DD 88 (9:4)-FB
[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 1 (13:3)-FB]
DD 88 (9:5)-FB
[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 1 (13:4)-FB]
DD 88 (10:1)-FB
[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 1 (14)-FB]
DD 88 (10:2a)-FB
M/FAN 10 (7:2)-FB <what happens here?>
DD 88 (10:2b)-FB
W:O 9 (3-8)-FB
BW4 4-FB
DD 88 (10:2c)-FB
[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 1 (15-16)-FB]
W:O 9 (9-18)-FB
[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 1 (17)-FB
UX 268 (14)-FB
W:O 16 (10 - 12)-FB
UX 268 (15 - 17)-FB
W:O 16 (16:1 - 16:3)-FB
UX 268 (20:1 - 20:4)-FB
W:O 16 (16:4)-FB
UX 268 (20:5 - 21:?)-FB
W:O 16 (17 - 19)-FB
UX 268 (22)-FB
[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 1 (19)-FB]
[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 2 (4-8)-FB]
DD 88 (10:2d)-FB
A 44-FB
[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 2 (12-14)-FB]
W2 -1
BFF:BGL 1
BFF:BGL 2
BFF:BGL 3
M/FAN 10 (page:panel)-FB <what happens here?>
{TOS 52 (1 - 4)}
[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 2 (17)-FB]
TOS 52 (5-12)
-Daron Jensen

User avatar
Russ Chappell
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4312
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:40 pm
Location: Tuscaloosa, AL
Contact:

Re: BW4 4

Post by Russ Chappell » Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:34 am

Thanks, Daron!

I'll try to remember to check M/FAN 10 when I get home tonight, if someone else doesn't beat me to it.

User avatar
Russ Chappell
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4312
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:40 pm
Location: Tuscaloosa, AL
Contact:

Re: BW4 4

Post by Russ Chappell » Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:18 pm

Here we go.

This issue is basically an origin recap, with Nick Fury debriefing Sam Sawyer and a couple of CIA agents, in preparation for a mission.

6:2 - 6:6 World War II, Siege of Stalingrad. A woman tosses Natasha from a burning building to Ivan Petrovich below. She is approximately 5 - 7 years old.

7:1 Natasha studies. "After the war, the Soviet state put 'er in school--an' she wuz always tops in the class no matter what the subject." She is perhaps 11 years old.

7:2 Natasha in martial arts training. "In any kinda athletics--gymnastics, dance, the martial arts, that little lady was the very best..." Perhaps 15 here.

7:3 Natasha falls for Alexi. "Years later, while she wuz trainin' in some academy, she met Alexi, the gent that swept 'er off her feet. It wuzn't long before they got hitched." 18 or 19 years old?

7:5 - 7:7 The Soviets tell Natasha that Alexi died during a test flight.

12:6 Natasha tries to steal Tony Stark's polarizer weapon (TOS 53).

13:1 Natasha teams up with Hawkeye (TOS 57).

13:3 Natasha renounces the Soviets (TOS 60).

13:4 Natasha agrees to serve the Soviets again, when they threaten to torture her parents (TOS 64-FB).

13:6 Natasha dons her first costume (TOS 64-FB).

13:7 Natasha & Hawkeye battle Iron Man (TOS 64).

13:9 Natasha, Swordsman & Power Man battle the Avengers (A 29).

14:1 - 14:4 Natasha dons a new costume and battles Spider-Man (ASM 86).

14:5 Natasha teams up with Daredevil (DD 81).

15:1 - 15:3 Natasha & Daredevil break up (~DD 124).

15:4 - 15:5 Natasha joins the Champions (CHAMP 1).

Keep in mind a couple of things:

1. Natasha's ages here are purely my speculation. They can be fudged, if necessary.

2. These are not first-person perspective flashbacks. They are Nick's renditions. He could be mistaken, or he could be feeding misinformation, if necessary.

Hope this helps.

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6310
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: BW4 4

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:44 pm

Russ Chappell wrote:Here we go.
Awesome.
Russ Chappell wrote:6:2 - 6:6 World War II, Siege of Stalingrad. A woman tosses Natasha from a burning building to Ivan Petrovich below. She is approximately 5 - 7 years old.
This sounds like a repeat of DD 88 (8:4-10:1)-FB, which is probably why it's not in the MCP.
Russ Chappell wrote:7:1 Natasha studies. "After the war, the Soviet state put 'er in school--an' she wuz always tops in the class no matter what the subject." She is perhaps 11 years old.

7:2 Natasha in martial arts training. "In any kinda athletics--gymnastics, dance, the martial arts, that little lady was the very best..." Perhaps 15 here.
This sounds like it expands DD 88 (10:2a-b)-FBs. I'd go ahead and include both panels.
Russ Chappell wrote:7:3 Natasha falls for Alexi. "Years later, while she wuz trainin' in some academy, she met Alexi, the gent that swept 'er off her feet. It wuzn't long before they got hitched." 18 or 19 years old?
This sounds new. We see Natasha and Alexi meet in Deadly Origin #2 (4-8)-FB and we see Natasha say goodbye to Alexi before he shoots off into space in DD 88 (10:2d)-FB, but we don't see them date or even their marriage anywhere... except M/FAN 10 (7:3)-FB, apparently. :wink:
Russ Chappell wrote:7:5 - 7:7 The Soviets tell Natasha that Alexi died during a test flight.
This is from A 44 (20:4)-FB, but this one Avengers panel has three panels worth of dialogue:
Avengers #44 wrote:
the Soviets wrote:I must inform you that your husband was KILLED today - - when his experimental rocket EXPLODED! However, you will be glad to know he died a HERO ... testing weapons for use against our ENEMIES!
Natasha wrote:If .. if only I could DO something ... to be worthy of his MEMORY ..
the Soviets wrote:Perhaps .. there IS something!
Natasha wrote:Tell me .. Tell me what it is! I'll do ANYTHING!
Is there anything new in M/FAN 10 (7:5-7:7)-FB that adds to this?
Russ Chappell wrote:12:6 Natasha tries to steal Tony Stark's polarizer weapon (TOS 53).

13:1 Natasha teams up with Hawkeye (TOS 57).

13:3 Natasha renounces the Soviets (TOS 60).

13:4 Natasha agrees to serve the Soviets again, when they threaten to torture her parents (TOS 64-FB).

13:6 Natasha dons her first costume (TOS 64-FB).

13:7 Natasha & Hawkeye battle Iron Man (TOS 64).

13:9 Natasha, Swordsman & Power Man battle the Avengers (A 29).
Sweet.
Russ Chappell wrote:14:1 - 14:4 Natasha dons a new costume and battles Spider-Man (ASM 86).
This apparently has new material, as it's already in the MCP. Any idea how it mixes with this?

BLACK WIDOW II/NATALIA ALIANOVNA ROMANOVA/"NATASHA ROMANOFF"

A 76
M/FAN 10-FB
ASM 86
M/FAN 10-FB
ASM 86
AA2 1/2

Russ Chappell wrote:14:5 Natasha teams up with Daredevil (DD 81).

15:1 - 15:3 Natasha & Daredevil break up (~DD 124).

15:4 - 15:5 Natasha joins the Champions (CHAMP 1).
Good times.

I'll say this for the M/FAN 10-FBs:

BLACK WIDOW II/NATALIA ALIANOVNA ROMANOVA/"NATASHA ROMANOFF"
DD 88 (8:4 - 9:3)-FB
[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 1 (13:1-13:2)-FB]
DD 88 (9:4)-FB
[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 1 (13:3)-FB]
DD 88 (9:5)-FB
[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 1 (13:4)-FB]
DD 88 (10:1)-FB
[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 1 (14)-FB]
DD 88 (10:2a)-FB
*M/FAN 10 (7:1-7:2)-FB
DD 88 (10:2b)-FB
W:O 9 (3-8)-FB
BW4 4-FB
DD 88 (10:2c)-FB
[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 1 (15-16)-FB]
W:O 9 (9-18)-FB
[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 1 (17)-FB
UX 268 (14)-FB
W:O 16 (10 - 12)-FB
UX 268 (15 - 17)-FB
W:O 16 (16:1 - 16:3)-FB
UX 268 (20:1 - 20:4)-FB
W:O 16 (16:4)-FB
UX 268 (20:5 - 21:?)-FB
W:O 16 (17 - 19)-FB
UX 268 (22)-FB
[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 1 (19)-FB]
[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 2 (4-8)-FB]
*M/FAN 10 (7:3)-FB
DD 88 (10:2d)-FB
A 44-FB
[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 2 (12-14)-FB]
W2 -1
BFF:BGL 1
BFF:BGL 2
BFF:BGL 3
**M/FAN 10-FB (delete)
{TOS 52 (1 - 4)}
[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 2 (17)-FB]
TOS 52 (5-12)

A 76
M/FAN 10 (page:panel)-FB
ASM 86 (page:panel)
M/FAN 10 (page:panel)-FB
ASM 86 (page:panel)

AA2 1/2
Russ Chappell wrote:Hope this helps.
It does, thanks!
-Daron Jensen

Midnighter
Hero
Hero
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 7:47 am

Re: BW4 4

Post by Midnighter » Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:48 pm

Uhmmm... Doesn't Natasha start to collaborate with USA early, in the '50, as shown in CAPTAIN AMERICA THEATER OF WAR: AMERICA FIRST?

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6310
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: BW4 4

Post by Col_Fury » Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:57 pm

Somehow I completely missed that the Russian agent that defects at the end of America First! was named Romanova. Thanks Midnighter!

This one's easy to place:

UX 268-FB takes place in August, 1941.
America First! takes place in the summer of 1955.
Deadly Origin #1 (19)-FB takes place in 1956. In this flashback, the Winter Soldier convinces her to side with the Russians *again* in exchange for chemicals that will heal Ivan and extend both their lifespans.

So...

BLACK WIDOW II/NATALIA ALIANOVNA ROMANOVA/"NATASHA ROMANOFF"

UX 268 (22)-FB
*CATOW:AF!
[BLACK WIDOW: DEADLY ORIGIN 1 (19)-FB]
-Daron Jensen

Locked