ASM@ 13 and PPTSS@ 1 and M/FAN 22-23

[Michael]

Currently, we have ASM@ 13 and PPTSS@ 1 placed after CA 250 in Spider-Man's chronology. However, in Dr. Octopus's chronology , PPTSS@ 1 is placed before M/FAN 22 and 23. M/FAN 23 is placed before A 195 in Ock's chronology. The problem is that in Captain America's chronology, CA 250 takes place after A 197. So PPTSS@ 1 takes place both before and after CA 250?
I think the simplest solution to the problem is to move CA 250 after ASM@ 13 and PPTSS@ 1, especially since Ock's chronology is confirmed by Ward's Avengers Index. Are they any problems with this solution?

[Paul Bourcier]

Ward does acknowledge that M/FAN 23 is Ock's last appearance before A 195. My notes indicate tight continuity from A 195 into A 197, then to CA 250, then to A 197 again. I have Ock's chronology as:
...
M/FAN 22
M/FAN 23
A 195
ASM @ 13
PPTSS@ 1
DD 165
...

This differs from Ward's Index in that ASM@ 13, not DD 165, is Ock's next appearance. Given this sequence, Spidey's chronology as noted in the MCP would be correct. Is there a problem with the Ock chronology as listed above? I'm not familiar with his status throughout all these issues.

Paul

[Michael]

The problem is that M/FAN 22-23 seem to indicate that Ock was in prison in M/FAN 22 following the events of PPTSS@ 1. We can ignore that reference, I suppose, since the important thing is that Ock is in prison, not why.

[Paul Bourcier]

Michael wrote:

The problem is that M/FAN 22-23 seem to indicate that Ock was in prison in M/FAN 22 following the events of PPTSS@ 1.

What is the nature of the reference to PPTSS@ 1 in M/FAN 22?

[Michael]

This is weird- I just remembered about DD 165. In DD 165, Ock explains how he survived his seeming death in PPTSS@ 1- that would seem to suggest that you're correct and DD 165 occurs immediately after PPTSS@ 1, although we've seen villains recount how they survived a long-ago brush with death before. But in DD 165, he makes it sound like PPTSS@ 1 was what inspired him to get adamantium arms- and not the fact that he used adamantium arms before in M/FAN 22-23 and they defeated Iron Man?
Here's another weird thing in M/FAN 23- Daredevil is looking for a woman who is considering turning state's evidence against the Kingpin. If this takes place between ASM 198 and DD 170, when Vanessa made the Kingpin swear off killing, then what is Matt worried about? Then again, I suppose that he could have been worried that one of the Kingpin's former associates might try to kill her. But this just complicates things further, since Turk's appearance is placed between DD 161 and DD 162, and PPTSS@ 1 is placed before DD 160, but Matt's appearance is placed between DD 159 and DD 160. But the problem with that is that Matt breaks Turk's jaw in DD 159 and in DD 160 and 161 he's still lisping and he shows no sign of a lisp in M/FAN 23.
Just to confuse things further, Electro's appearance in M/FAN 22 is placed after PPTSS 42- after PPTSS@ 1.
Maybe I was thinking of DD 165, which had the reference to PPTSS@ 1.I'm going to try and find the reference in M/FAN 22-23, if it exists. If someone else could find it, I'd be grateful. But right now I'm wondering if M/FAN 22-23 is properly placed.

[Michael]

The more I think about it M/FAN 22-23 HAVE to take place after DD 165, even though Ward's index says differently. The adamantium arms Ock uses are the ones that he had constructed in DD 165, and the story seems to allude to that at points.

[Paul Bourcier]

I don't have DD 165, but I did check my copy of M/FAN 22 and Doc Ock makes specific reference to his battle with Daredevil (complete with revisited FB panel).

The choice is either moving issues of DD back in time or moving M/FAN 22-23 forward in time. My gut reaction is to move M/FAN, since this is a story that was published years later as a continuity implant.

The problem with M/FAN 22-23 is demonstrated in the conflicting chronologies of Sandman and Electro -- M/FAN 22 is before PPTSS 39 in Sandman's chronology, and after PPTSS 42 in Electro's. I think Electro's is closer to the mark, although I believe FF 218 occurs the same night as PPTSS 42 (if my old notes are right), so M/FAN 22 would go after FF 218 in Electro's chronology. Indeed, Scarlet Witch's chronology has DD 165 (which is before M/FAN 22) occurring after FF 220.

What does moving M/FAN 22-23 mean in everyone's chronologies?

CAPTAIN AMERICA
...
A 191
CA 246
CA 247
CA 248
CA 249
**M/FAN 23 [move from here]
A 192
A 193
A 194
A 195
A 196
A 197
CA 250
A 198
A 199
A 200
M/TIO 69
A 201
A 201
A 203
A 204
A 205
DAZZ 1
A 206
FF 220
DD 164
**M/FAN 23 [move to here]
CA 251 (1-18:2)
...

DAREDEVIL
...
A 191
DD 159
**M/FAN 23 [move from here]
CA 250
M/TIO 69
DD 160
DD 161
DD 162
DD 163
DD 164
DD 165
DD 166
**M/FAN 23 [move to here]
M/TE 25
...

DR. OCTOPUS
...
DD2 69-FB
**A 195-BTS [move to here]
ASM@ 13
PPTSS@ 1
**M/FAN 22 [move from here]
**M/FAN 23 [move from here]
**A 195-BTS [move from here]
DD 165
**M/FAN 22 [move to here]
**M/FAN 23 [move to here]
T 304-BTS
CA 259
...

ELECTRO
...
PPTSS 42
**M/FAN 22 [move from here]
FF 218
""M/FAN 22 [move to here]
...

GREY GARGOYLE
(No change)

IRON MAN
...
A 191
**M/FAN 22 [move from here]
**M/FAN 23 [move from here]
A 192
A 193
ALIAS 26 (13-18)-FB [add pages]
A 194
A 195
A 196
A 197
CA 250
A 197
A 198
A 199
A 200
M/TIO 69
A 201
A 202
A 203
A 204
A 205
DAZZ 1
A 206
DAZZ 2
FF 220
DD 163
**M/FAN 22 [move to here]
**M/FAN 23 [move to here]
S-H 6 [unsure; I think there's discussion elsewhere about this, yes?]
IM 130
...

EDWIN JARVIS
...
A 191
**M/FAN 23 [move from here]
A 192
A 194
A 197
CA 250
A 199
A 200
A 201
A 202
A 203
A 204
A 205
DAZZ 1
A 206
**M/FAN 23 [move to here]
IM 137
...

SANDMAN
...
WM 1
**M/FAN 22 [move from here]
PPTSS 39
PPTSS 40
PPTSS 42
FF 218
**M/FAN 22 [move to here]
M/TU 99
...

SCARLET WITCH
...
A 191
M/TIO 66
**M/FAN 23 [move from here]
A 192
ALIAS 26 (13-18)-FB
A 197
A 198
A 199
A 200
A 201
A 202
A 203
A 204
A 205
A 206
FF 220
DD 164
**M/FAN 23
M/TIO 75-BTS
...

VISION
...
A 191
**M/FAN 23
A 192
A 193
ALIAS 26 (13-18)-FB
A 194
A 195
A 196
A 197
CA 250
A 197
A 198
A 199
A 200
M/TIO 69
A 201
A 202
A 203
TTA2 12/2
A 204
A 205
A 206
FF 220
DD 164
**M/FAN 23 [move to here]
H@ 11
...

I could really use someone to look all this over from each character's perspective to see if these proposed chronologies make sense.

If this sticks, then it's more errata for the Iron Man Index TPB and (sob) for Avengers and Cap entries in the next Index issue.

[Michael]

The choice is either moving issues of DD back in time or moving M/FAN 22-23 forward in time. My gut reaction is to move M/FAN, since this is a story that was published years later as a continuity implant.

The problem with M/FAN 22-23 is demonstrated in the conflicting chronologies of Sandman and Electro -- M/FAN 22 is before PPTSS 39 in Sandman's chronology, and after PPTSS 42 in Electro's. I think Electro's is closer to the mark, although I believe FF 218 occurs the same night as PPTSS 42 (if my old notes are right), so M/FAN 22 would go after FF 218 in Electro's chronology. Indeed, Scarlet Witch's chronology has DD 165 (which is before M/FAN 22) occurring after FF 220.

Yeah, FF 218 continues from PPTSS 42, so M/FAN 22-23 can't go in between them. M/FAN 22 also features Sandman as a villain, so it has to go before ASM 217-218, where he merges with Hydro-Man.

S-H 6 [unsure; I think there's discussion elsewhere about this, yes?]

Yeah, it's discussed here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5158
First S-H 6 was placed too late, then we moved it and now it's placed too early.

Placing it after DD 166 seems to work- we can just assume that Matt was worried about one of the Kingpin's former associates killing the witness he mentioned to Turk.

DR. OCTOPUS
...
DD2 69-FB
**A 195-BTS [move to here]
ASM@ 13
PPTSS@ 1
**M/FAN 22 [move from here]
**M/FAN 23 [move from here]
**A 195-BTS [move from here]
**T 304-BTS [move to here]
DD 165
**T 304-BTS [move from here]
**M/FAN 22 [move to here]
**M/FAN 23 [move to here]
CA 259

There's a problem with placing T 304 before DD 165 and your suggested placement of M/FAN 22-23. T 304 is placed after H@ 11 in Thor's chronology. You want to place M/FAN 22-23 before H@ 11, correct?

[Paul Bourcier]

Michael wrote:

There's a problem with placing T 304 before DD 165 and your suggested placement of M/FAN 22-23. T 304 is placed after H@ 11 in Thor's chronology. You want to place M/FAN 22-23 before H@ 11, correct?

Ah, yes. I'll correct that. Let me know if other problems exist.

[michel]

I agree with Paul's chronologies, with M/FAN 22-23 moved. Just, for Vic Martinelli, M/FAN 22 should be put after A 201-BTS too

MARTINELLI, VINCENT "VIC"
IM 147-FB
* M/FAN 22 moved from here
A 201-BTS
* M/FAN 22 moved here
{IM 132}
IM 133