Avengers Inferno question

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Avengers Inferno question

Post by Kevin W. » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:13 pm

I know very little about the Inferno crossover from the late 80's, so please help me out:

In Avengers #299, Cannonball narrates to the Captain about the demons of Limbo. There's a panel featuring S'ym in Limbo leading the demons into battle, and another panel showing N'astrih clutching some babies. These two demons are not
listed as appearing in this issue in the MCP.

Are these re-flashbacks? If so, in what issue were these events first shown?

Or are these vague, generic images of the demons, and thus they don't count as actual events that occurred and need placement in their chronologies?

Or are these two entirely new scenes of the characters that were overlooked by the MCP, and need placed in their chronologies?

Later,

Kevin
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Re: Avengers Inferno question

Post by Michael » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:26 pm

I'd vote for vague,generic images. Sam is telling Cap how S'ym is leading an army of demons and N'astirh needs to sacrifice babies to bring that army to Earth. The images are just to illustrate Sam's tale for the readers.

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Re: Avengers Inferno question

Post by metaldragon » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:58 am

Kevin W. wrote:I know very little about the Inferno crossover from the late 80's, so please help me out:

In Avengers #299, Cannonball narrates to the Captain about the demons of Limbo. There's a panel featuring S'ym in Limbo leading the demons into battle, and another panel showing N'astrih clutching some babies. These two demons are not
listed as appearing in this issue in the MCP.

Are these re-flashbacks? If so, in what issue were these events first shown?

Or are these vague, generic images of the demons, and thus they don't count as actual events that occurred and need placement in their chronologies?

Or are these two entirely new scenes of the characters that were overlooked by the MCP, and need placed in their chronologies?

Later,

Kevin
"N'astirh clutching some babies" would have been during the X-terminators mini-series. "S'ym in Limbo leading the demons into battle" would probably be during NM 71.
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Re: Avengers Inferno question

Post by Kevin W. » Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:50 am

"N'astirh clutching some babies" would have been during the X-terminators mini-series. "S'ym in Limbo leading the demons into battle" would probably be during NM 71.
N'astirh's chronology for the period of X-Terminators is as follows:

UX 236
XTERM 1
UX 238-BTS
XTERM 2
XF 34
PP 42
UX 239
UX 240
XF 35-BTS
UX 241
XF 36
XTERM 3
NM 71
XTERM 3
NM 71
XTERM 3
XTERM 4
A 300

Given how XTERM 3 and NM 71 interconnect for his chronology, would XTERM 3 be the likely spot where "clutching babies" occurs? Anybody have the issues in question?
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Re: Avengers Inferno question

Post by metaldragon » Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:16 pm

Kevin W. wrote:Given how XTERM 3 and NM 71 interconnect for his chronology, would XTERM 3 be the likely spot where "clutching babies" occurs? Anybody have the issues in question?
Nowhere in the X-terminators mini is N'astirh shown clutching babies himself, he mostly left that to his goblin minions. If one were to place it anywhere, it would probably be sometime during XTERM 3 & 4 as that's when Crotus and his goblins begin gathering mutant babies in numbers. How many babies are shown? Are Artie, Leech, Wiz Kid or any of the other X-terminators present? That might determine when it goes.

Cannonball wasn't present to witness N'astirh doing such a thing so I'd go with what Michael said actually. The only way Cannonball would have "seen" such a moment is if Artie would have showed him that with his powers.

Edit: Some of the babies N'astirh gathered were from Mr. Sinister's orphanage in XF 35 so probably sometime after that.
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Re: Avengers Inferno question

Post by Kevin W. » Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:34 pm

So there's a possibility this IS a new scene? Well, this is getting more complicated...

Here's what occurred in the panels in question:

The Captain helps the New Mutants defeat a group of demons near Times Square. The Captain, who just arrived on the scene, asks what's going on, and Cannonball narrates as follows:

"It's demons from a place called Limbo. There's a lot of 'em led by a right mean mother name of S'ym. He's fixin' to invade Earth starting with New York and spreadin' out." While he says that, we see a picture of S'ym in Limbo, leading the demons in a march to war.

Cannonball continues:

"There's another one called N'Astirh with pretty much the same idea. And they've been tryin' to make some sort of nasty magic 'usin' babies! We're just getting a taste of their shock troops in Times Square." And we see a picture of N'astirh sitting in Limbo, with a blond haired baby in each hand, with other demons gather around him looking at him and smiling wickedly.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Kevin
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Re: Avengers Inferno question

Post by Michael » Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:41 pm

Kevin W. wrote: "There's another one called N'Astirh with pretty much the same idea. And they've been tryin' to make some sort of nasty magic 'usin' babies! We're just getting a taste of their shock troops in Times Square." And we see a picture of N'astirh sitting in Limbo, with a blond haired baby in each hand, with other demons gather around him looking at him and smiling wickedly.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Kevin
Now here's the problem- N'astirh never brought the kidnapped babies to Limbo. The spell he performed with them was performed on Earth. That scene is probably symbolic.

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Re: Avengers Inferno question

Post by Kevin W. » Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:11 am

Michael wrote:Now here's the problem- N'astirh never brought the kidnapped babies to Limbo. The spell he performed with them was performed on Earth. That scene is probably symbolic.
Well, just to clarify: it looked like Limbo simply because the demons were there, and the landscape (what little could be seen) looked desolate, like Limbo. But yeah, it sounds like that panel could be symbolic. So that would make the S'ym panel a flashback to a NM 71, and the other a symbolic image?
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Re: Avengers Inferno question

Post by metaldragon » Sun Oct 17, 2010 1:31 am

If it's a desolate setting, it's probably either the crypt or the graveyard the crypt was in where N'astirh had his base on Earth. The only other location he was with the babies was the top of the skyscraper before his goblins flew them up to form the pentacle which would hold open the portal from Limbo to Earth. If it's the crypt/graveyard that would have been during XTERM 3. Since there are only 2 babies shown, it might be fairly early in XTERM 3. I'll have to double check when I get home on Tues.
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Re: Avengers Inferno question

Post by Michael » Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:53 am

OK,I looked again- A 299 takes before Cannonball meets Artie, so there's no way that Artie could have shown him the scene with the babies.
Also, IMHO, the landscape doesn't look like a crypt or a graveyard.

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Re: Avengers Inferno question

Post by Kevin W. » Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:49 am

Well, I suppose it could be a crypt or graveyeard, but it's so vague, it's hard to say for certain. Which means it's open to interpretation. More problematic is this:
OK,I looked again- A 299 takes before Cannonball meets Artie, so there's no way that Artie could have shown him the scene with the babies.
So ummm...it's more than just a vague, generic image of N'Astirh, it's actually a writer/aritst error?
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Re: Avengers Inferno question

Post by Michael » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:31 am

Kevin W. wrote: So ummm...it's more than just a vague, generic image of N'Astirh, it's actually a writer/aritst error?
I wouldn't call it a writer/artist error- at this point Sam has no clue how N'astirh got the babies, all he saw was 10 babies in a magical pentagram over Times Square- so he's just imagining it.

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Re: Avengers Inferno question

Post by metaldragon » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:10 am

In XTERM 2, pg 8 N'astirh sends his "N'asteris" (as he calls them in XTERM 1), goblins loyal to him, to find "...infants of power and purity!" after they bring him Artie & Leech, then casts a spell to contact the Goblin Queen ("See X-Men #230" the footnote tells us.) On pg 25 N'astirh has 2 babies already and some goblins bring 2 more. That "flashback" probably belongs after his appearance in UX 230 and before XTERM 2, pg 25 then.

The only moment Cannonball would have "seen" what N'astirh was up to with the babies would have been if Artie showed him (while the X-terminators could have explained it) right after the last panel of XTERM 4 when both groups are gathered together on the top of the building in Times Square with the babies and before NM 72, pg 25 when they're on the ground in front of a church.

Edit: Unless Cannonball talked to Artie & Leech during the aerial battle during XTERM 4 pg 19-31/NM 72 pg 9-24.
Last edited by metaldragon on Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:32 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Avengers Inferno question

Post by metaldragon » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:18 am

Another question, is N'astirh green or metallic red in Avengers 299? If he's green, then it's before NM 72, pg 24/XTERM 4, pg 27. If he's red then it's after NM 72, pg 24/XTERM 4, pg 27. That is the moment when he's infected by the Transmode Virus by S'ym.
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Re: Avengers Inferno question

Post by metaldragon » Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:39 am

Another thing I just noticed reading through these issues... In MN 72, pg 25 they mention that they've saved 10 babies. If the 13th was Nathan Christopher Summers (who X-Factor & the X-Men saved)... what happened to the other 2?

In XTERM 3, pg 23 N'astirh says "I require one infant to channel power for the entrance spell. And three more after that for final transformation. But that problem is even now being solved.*" "*See X-Factor 36." That's pretty obscure. Not sure WHAT that means.

In X-Factor 36, pg 4 N'astirh is sitting on top of the Mausoleum and had cast a spell to see the transformation of Manhattan, his goblins flying with the babies from Sinister's orphanage, Maddie as the Goblin Queen, and Jean. Then he casts another spell to taunt "Dark Angel" aka Warren, after Warren sliced off Cameron Hodge's head and massacred most of the Right to recover Candy's body.

The goblins with the babies from Sinister's orphanage then arrive in XTERM 3 on pg 25. After that, N'astirh transports the X-terminators, the computer, the babies and his goblins to the top of the building in Times Square where he casts the spell to hold open the portal to Limbo when the Darkchilde opens it. 10 goblins with babies fly up to form the pentacle.

What happens to Nathan Christopher after being transported to Times Square with the rest of the babies at the end of XTERM 3? Is he BTS during XTERM 4/NM 72 & XF 36 when N'astirh is fighting with S'ym? When does he next appear? Is it UX 241/XF 37?

Side note: What happens in PPTSS 147? Is that placed correctly in N'astirh's listing? Is N'astirh green or red there?

Is it possible, that Cannonball could have seen N'astirh with 2 babies, in Limbo? I suppose there could be a gap forced in XTERM 3 between page 28 & 29 when N'astirh transports them all to Times Square & before he sends the goblins to fly up and form the pentacle with the babies. N'astirh could have quickly popped into Limbo to check on how S'ym was doing manipulating Illyana into opening the portal during NM 71 to get the timing right. Where would that moment go in NM 71? I don't have a copy of it so can't check. Is it possible this is a scene which explains the fate of the 2 missing babies?!?
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