Nick Fury in BW:CW and AGENTGN?

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Nick Fury in BW:CW and AGENTGN?

Post by Col_Fury » Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:16 am

Currently, we have Nick Fury's chronology as this:

NFV.S 1-6
BW:CW
CA 351
AGENTGN
NF3 1-7

What makes me raise an eyebrow is that Nick Fury closes down SHIELD in NFV.S 1-6, he's dismantling headquarters and safehouses in CA 351, then he re-forms SHIELD(with a new acronym!) in NF3 1-7. So... what's he doing in Rick Mason: the Agent & Black Widow: the Coldest War GNs? Normally I'd check for myself, but I don't have these.

Is Fury with SHIELD in these GNs? If so, what's the acronym stand for? Does it say? Is SHIELD even mentioned?

If Fury's not with SHIELD, what's he doing? Why/how does he hire/send on a mission/whatever the Agent/Black Widow?(if he even does?)

Is Fury in a jumpsuit, or is he wearing a tie or something?

Thanks!
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Re: Nick Fury in BW:CW and AGENTGN?

Post by Michael » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:16 am

Here's something else weird about BW:CW- in Natasha's chronology, it takes place after A 313. Now DAMCON2 3 occurs prior to A 313 in Captain America's chronology. So if Natasha's chronology is correct, BW:CW would have to take place after Nick's appearance in DAMCON2 3. Also, for Hawkeye and Mockingbird, BW:CW takes place between AWC 62 and 63. So Natasha's, Clint's and Bobbi's chronologies all have BW:CW after Acts of Vengeance, while Nick's has it before Acts of Vengeance. Now, BW:CW's placement in Daredevil's chronology is tricky.
I've been looking through Daredevil's chronology, and Matt's chronology for this period is very problematic. Matt's chronology reads as follows:
DAREDEVIL/MATT MICHAEL MURDOCK
...
DD 270
DD@ 5
DD@ 5/2
DD@ 5/3
PWJ 9-BTS
DD@ 6
H@ 16
DD@ 6/2
DD@ 6
DD@ 6/3
BW:CW
DD 271
DD 272
DD 273
DD 274
DD 275
...
Unfortunately, this is completely impossible to reconcile with everyone else's chronology. For example, PWJ 9 takes place after A 313 for Natasha but DD 275 takes place before A 313 for Doom. H@ 16 takes place AFTER the end of Acts of Vengeance in the Hulk's chronology but DD 275 takes place BEFORE the end of Acts of Vengeance in Doom's chronology. So, BW:CW 's placement in Matt's chronology doesn't help us.
About the AGENTGN- I don't have it but according to the Marvel Appendix, Nick hires the Agent to go off to Costa Brava. There's a scene in AF 79 where the Tinkerer remarks that he just saw his son (the Agent) off to Costa Brava. So Nick's appearance in the AGENTGN has to take place very shortly before AF 79.

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Re: Nick Fury in BW:CW and AGENTGN?

Post by Col_Fury » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:46 pm

Hmmnn...

AF 79 is after Atlantis Attacks for Talisman. CA 351 is WAY before Atlantis Attacks for Captain America, which means that AGENTGN is now likely in the wrong spot for Nick Fury.

AF 79 and NF3 6 were published in the same month, and NF3 7 is when the arc where SHIELD is re-formed ends.
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Re: Nick Fury in BW:CW and AGENTGN?

Post by John Simons » Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:07 pm

I looked through these two gn's for ya. I didn't read them word for word, but I focussed on the Fury/SHIELD mentions and here's what I've gleaned.

First of all, in the Coldest War GN there is a three year gap between the main story and the two page epilogue. Since it is only listed once in Widow's and Fury's chronologies, that's your first problem right there.

The Black Widow GN was published in 1990, but according to captions, only the 2-page epilogue actually takes place in '90, the rest of the story takes place 3 years before that. Since books like A 313 and NF3 were published around 1990, I assume that it's the epilogue that's currently placed, and the previous 62 pages need to be placed.

Since Natasha refers to the main story as "three years ago", I assume that's a reference to Marvel time, and therefore the 1987 reference for the main story is topical, but other's mileage may vary.

In the "1987" bit, we are dealing with the original SHIELD.

Early on, after a mission gone wrong, Natasha says:
"When Colonel Fury asked me to retrieve that computer disk for SHIELD he said it was a simple case of industrial espionage."
Later in the story she crosses paths with other agents in blue jumpsuits and such.

Fury does not actually appear in the this section, but since he sent Widow on the opening mission he would be BTS.

As to where Widow and Fury should be placed for this section, I guess it depends on how you calculate Marvel time. The bulk of the gn supposedly takes place 3 years, Marvel time prior to comics published in 1990.

In the epilogue, Fury meets Widow in normal clothes and overcoat, and says:
"Ever since SHIELD went underground, I move around a lot. But I keep in touch." I assume this to mean NFV.S has happened, and indeed this gn was published after that mini.

Now, prior to NF3, was SHIELD "underground", or did it not exist at all?

In the Agent gn, Fury is in disguise as a jogger and meets Mason in Central Park. The key dialogue here is Mason saying "I thought you were busy reorganizing SHIELD"

So the placement of these seems more or less okay.I don't have my NF3's handy, but I thought Fury didn't try to resurrect SHIELD until after the initial storyline, so maybe it could be debated if these gns would fall after the first few issues of NF3, but really I don't find their current placement objectionable.

To reiterate, however, new placements are required for Widow and Fury-BTS for the main story of BW:CW.
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Re: Nick Fury in BW:CW and AGENTGN?

Post by Michael » Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:15 pm

About BW:CW, in which part do Hawkeye, Mockingbird and Daredevil appear- the epilogue or the "1987" part? If they appear in the "1987" part, are there any clues to their chronologies? (e.g. Is Matt disbarred? Are Clint and Bobbi happily married?)
About the AGENTGN, how much time passes between Nick meeting Mason and Mason leaving for Costa Brava? Because Mason leaving for Costa Brava has to take place just before AF 79, since the Tinkerer was seeing Mason off just before he appears in AF 79.

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Re: Nick Fury in BW:CW and AGENTGN?

Post by John Simons » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:14 am

First of all, Fury does indeed appear at the end of the the main story, sorry about that. So he needs another full appearence, not behind the scenes.

I decided to look more into where the BW:CW is placed in various other characters' chronologies. The inevitable conclusion is whoever analyzed this gn for the Project seems to have missed the huge leap in time.

As I said in my previous post, only the last two pages of the book take place in 1990, which is when the gn was published. The only characters who appear in the last two pages are Fury and Widow.

Many of the other characters in BW:CW have no entry, presumably because they are too insignificant. So the remaining characters to be placed are Hawkeye, Daredevil, Mockingbird, Karen Page, and Ivan Petrovitch. Currently their BW;CW appearences all seem to be placed around 1990-published comics, which ignores the whole 1987/"3 years ago" premise.

It seems to me that all of these entries need to be moved back (and earlier entries for Widow and Fury need to be added) but to where? There are 2 ways to tackle this:

I wonder if this book had a rewrite at some point, with some dates changed, and the letterer didn't catch all the changes. The narrative captions for the main part of the story place it in 1987, with two exceptions. Chapter one's opening caption reads: "February 1988", and the Daredevil sequence is marked "April 4, 1988"(!), however, the story is told chronologically without any flashbacks or flashforwards.. All of the other scenes are dated Feb. 1987, which lines up with Widow's "3 years ago" comment in the epilogue.

Anyway, since Marvel time does not move at the same pace as real time, either the 1987 references or the "3 years ago" reference must be dismissed as topical. They can't both be true.

So either:
The gn needs to be placed somewhere among comics published in 1987, or
it needs to be placed 3 years, Marvel time, prior to comics published in 1990.

Here's some bits to help narrow it down:

Natasha:
Is wearing her grey costume and short haircut.
Does most everything with Ivan.
Has an apartment on the east side of Manhattan.

Ivan:
Claims it has been 25 years since he saved her from the burning building in Stalingrad, but I think this was before Widow was retconned into being much older than she appeared.

Hawkeye and Mockingbird:
Are married and appear to be living on the west coast (beach, palm trees)

Daredevil:
Is running his storefront law clinic. Karen Page doesn't live with him but they are together and she sleeps over some nights.Karen didn't come back into Matt's life until the Born Again storyline, which came out in 1986, so perhaps the publishing year of 1987 really is what we should be targeting for this graphic novel. When did Matt open his law clinic?

Fury:
No real clues, other than it is when the original SHIELD is still up and running.

Also, for what it's worth, Mikhail Gorbachev appears in a photo and also speaks with Fury BTS.

The Karen Page/storefront clinic angle seems to eliminate a 3 years ago Marvel time placement-- can anyone narrow it down further from here?
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Re: Nick Fury in BW:CW and AGENTGN?

Post by John Simons » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:26 am

Michael wrote:About the AGENTGN, how much time passes between Nick meeting Mason and Mason leaving for Costa Brava? Because Mason leaving for Costa Brava has to take place just before AF 79, since the Tinkerer was seeing Mason off just before he appears in AF 79.
I'm totally missing why this is important, but Mason appears to leave the very next day after meeting with Fury. He does visit the Tinkerer the night before he leaves for Costa Brava.

Obviously, I'm not connecting all the dots here, both the AGENTGN and AF 79 were published in 1989, so if you are seeing some incongruity it's going over my head.
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Re: Nick Fury in BW:CW and AGENTGN?

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:38 am

Thanks for looking at these, John!

As for Costa Brava, in the Agent GN Mason sees both Fury & Tinkerer then leaves for Coasta Brava. In AF 79 Tinkerer says he just came from seeing Mason, which was right before Mason leaves for Costa Brava. Both the Agent GN & AF 79 were written by James D. Hudnall, so this would seem to be a fairly deliberate reference in AF 79 to the Agent GN.

AF 79 is an Acts of Vengeance tie-in. So if the reference can hold, the Agent GN would seem to occur either right before or during Acts of Vengeance, depending on when AF 79 happens within Acts of Vengeance.

Here's a bit of Fury's chronology at this time:

CA 351
AGENTGN (tied to AF 79?, maybe during Acts of Vengeance)
NF3 1
NF3 2
NF3 3
NF3 4
NF3 5
NF3 6
NF3 7
PUN2 29 (Acts of Vengeance)
DAMCON2 3 (Acts of Vengeance)
DAMCON2 4 (Acts of Vengeance)
NF3 7
NF3 8
NF3 9

And here's a bit from the Tinkerer's:

ASM 310
AGENTGN (sees Mason off to Coasta Brava)
WOSM 58 (before Acts of Vengeance)
CA 369 (after Acts of Vengeance)
AF 79 (just returned from seeing Mason off to Coasta Brava, Acts of Vengeance)
NM 86 (Acts of Vengeance)

And here's a bit from Captain America's for comparison:

AWC 55
DAMCON2 4 (Acts of Vengeance)
ASPOT 29/2
A@ 19/3
FF 337 (after Acts of Vengeance)
BK2 1
CA 368
CA 369 (Tinkerer appears, after Acts of Vengeance)

Tinkerer's chronology seems to be off, and the Agent GN is nowhere near AF 79 currently. Since it looks like his chronology needs to be fixed anyway, we might as well use the reference in AF 79 and move the Agent GN to be Tinkerer's last appearance before AF 79.

This would mean we'd have to move the Agent GN in Nick Fury's chronology closer to the other Acts of Vengeance tie-ins, somewhere around PUN2 29. The reference John quotes about SHIELD in the Agent GN would still work around Acts of Vengeance. Does anyone know where PUN2 29 occurs within Acts of Vengeance?
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Re: Nick Fury in BW:CW and AGENTGN?

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:51 am

As for Black Widow, it sounds like the last two pages can stay where they are for Fury & Black Widow.

As for the first 62 pages, I think you're right John. Daredevil(and Karen Page) pretty much places the "3 years ago" stuff among comics from 1987, instead of 3 years ago Marvel time.

I'm nowhere near my collection tonight so I won't be able to really help narrow anything down more tonight. But, I think I can place the Gorbachev BTS off the top of my head:

GORBACHEV, MIKHAIL
CRIMSON DYNAMO 5-FB
*BW:CW-BTS
*CA 353 (this appearance is currently missing from the MCP)
{MK:DWF}

Thanks again!
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Re: Nick Fury in BW:CW and AGENTGN?

Post by Michael » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:22 am

John Simons wrote: The Karen Page/storefront clinic angle seems to eliminate a 3 years ago Marvel time placement-- can anyone narrow it down further from here?
Since Clint and Bobbi are happily married, the main story would seem to take place before WCA2 33-36, where Clint learns about the Phantom Rider.
John Simons wrote:When did Matt open his law clinic?
In DD 248, Karen's excited that they got their first call at the law clinic. So the main story in BW:CW probably takes place between DD 248 and WCA2 33.
As for the Agent GN, AF 79 features Llan the Sorcerer taking advantage of the Super Powers Registration Act and the war between superhumans in the United States (Acts of Vengeance) to lure super-villains to Canada, so that he can use them to trick Alpha Flight into opening the Gateway of Night. So AF 79 has to take place sometime between ASPOT 26 and FF 336. Can anyone narrow it down further?
Col_Fury wrote: Does anyone know where PUN2 29 occurs within Acts of Vengeance?
It's placed after A 312 and before DAMCON2 3 in Captain America's chronology.

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