miscellaneous minor misplacements part 4

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michel
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miscellaneous minor misplacements part 4

Post by michel » Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:21 pm

1) in M/SPT2 11, we hear Jonah Jameson tell Peter Parker Captain Universe is a real hero, unlike Spider-Man. For Spider-Man, M/SPT2 11 is before PPTSS@ 2 & PPTSS 52, for Jonah, it's after.

If we choose to change Jonah's chronology :

JAMESON, J. JONAH JR.
ASM 212
* M/SPT2 11-VO moved from here
PPTSS@ 2
PPTSS 52
* M/SPT2 11-VO moved here
ASM 213

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
H@ 11
PPTSS@ 2
PPTSS 52
M/TU 102
PPTSS 53
M/SPT2 11-VO
ASM 213


2) Jonah Jameson and Joe Robertson are together when they meet Foggy Nelson and Becky Blake at the Bugle in DD 177. For Jonah, DD 177 is after M/TU 108-110, for Robbie, it's before.

For Daredevil, DD 174-178 is after M-K 13. For Moon Knight, M-K 13 is after ASM 220. And for Spider-Man, ASM 220 is after M/TU 108-109. That makes DD 177 after M/TU 108-109, as in Jonah's chronology. So, suggested chronology :

ROBERTSON, JOE
PPTSS 71
* DD 177 moved from here
M/TU 108
M/TU 109
M/TU 110
* DD 177 moved here
ASM 222


3) For Ka-Zar, KZ3 1-16 is in between M/FAN 2 and 3, and before COC 1-3. But for Shanna, KZ3 1-31 is after COC 1 ! If I remember well, the first half of the KZ3 serie is completely disconnected from the rest of the Marvel Universe. Does anybody have a clue to choose between the two chronologies ?

4) I need some explanations for how M/GN 1 has been treated in the MCP. I've spotted three periods in the book :

(1-30:1) Marvell reveals he's ill to Mentor, Eros and Elysius, then to Rick Jones, who alerts some Avengers (Beast, Vision, Wonder Man, Iron Man, Thor, Black Panther, Yellowjacket). Thanos appears as a stone statue
(30:2-30:9) "days turn into weeks and the word spreads throughout the galaxy". We see here a Skrull Emperor, Mordecaï Jones ?, the Supreme Intelligence, the Watcher, Shabby Allus, the Inhumans (Black Bolt, Medusa, Triton, Gorgon, Karnak), Lou-Ann Savannah, the Defenders (Dr. Strange, Namor, Hulk)
(31-62) all the heroes gather to say good-bye to Captain Marvel

In the MCP, M/GN 1 is listed only once for all the characters, except :

* Hulk, Iron Man, Namor and the Silver Surfer Imposter have SS3 14-FB in between pages M/GN 1, that's OK
* Thor has M/TU 115-116 in between pages M/GN 1

Does that mean only M/TU 115-116 has been placed between the first and the third period of M/GN 1 ?

There's also an inconsitency, for Rick Jones M/GN 1 is in between H2 261 and 262, for Hulk it's in between H2 265 and 266. Rick is looking for Hulk in H2 261-262. So M/GN 1 part 1 could be placed there, then we miss part 3 in between H2 265 and 266. Or M/GN 1 isn't splitted in two in Rick's chronology, and should be moved in between H2 265 and 266

I'm not sure it's Mordecai Jones in (30:3), but I'm pretty sure it's Lou-Ann in (30:8), so M/GN 1 should be added in her chronology. And Shabby Allus isn't in the MCP

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Re: miscellaneous minor misplacements part 4

Post by Michael » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:55 pm

michel wrote: 3) For Ka-Zar, KZ3 1-16 is in between M/FAN 2 and 3, and before COC 1-3. But for Shanna, KZ3 1-31 is after COC 1 ! If I remember well, the first half of the KZ3 serie is completely disconnected from the rest of the Marvel Universe. Does anybody have a clue to choose between the two chronologies ?
We discussed this a while back:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4670

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Re: miscellaneous minor misplacements part 4

Post by michel » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:43 am

5) In DD 181, we see Foggy in his office while Daredevil goes down in the sewer to fight the King. Foggy and Matt are seen together in M/FAN 1/2. Yet, for Matt, M/FAN 1/2 is after DD 181, when for Foggy it's before.

DAREDEVIL/MATT MICHAEL MURDOCK
DD 178
PM&IF 77
DD 179
DD 180
SS3 14-FB
M/GN 1
DD 181
WI? 35
DEF 103
DEF 104
DEF 106-FB
M/FAN 1/2
FF 242
FF 243
DEF 106
DEF 107
M/CP 136/4-FB
DD 182

DD loses his leg-cast in between DD 180 and 181, and doesn't wear it in M/FAN 1/2. M/FAN 1/2 is a Christmas story, maybe Paul can tell us more about that. If we decide to follow Matt's chronology, then proposed chronology for Foggy :

NELSON, FRANKLIN P. "FOGGY"
DD 178
PM&IF 77
DD 180
* M/FAN 1/2 moved from here
DD 181
* M/FAN 1/2 moved here
DD 182

6) After A@ 10, Rogue appears in UX 158, then in ROM 31-32. For Mystique, it's the opposite.

The rest of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants are freed in ROM 31, having been captured in A@ 10. We only see Rogue and Mystique in UX 158, it can be because the rest of the Brotherhood is in prison, but the two women are in a covert mission in the Pentagon. It seems more natural to have UX 158 before ROM 31-32, but it's not compulsory. If we follow this hypothesis, then proposed chronology for Mystique :

MYSTIQUE/RAVEN DARKHOLME/"MALLORY BRICKMAN"/"B. BYRON BIGGS"/"RONNIE LAKE"/"DALE FYFE"
A@ 10
* UX 158 moved here
ROM 31
ROM 32
* UX 158 moved from here
DAZZ 22

7) For Rom, COC 1-3 is in between ROM 46 and 47. But for Torpedo, ROM 40-42 is after COC 1-3 and H2 279. Also, for Darkstar, Ursa Major and Vanguard, ROM 45-46 is after COC 1-3 and H2 277 and 279. Rom's chronology seems fine, any thoughts ?

8) Moon Knight and Frenchie meet in both IM 161 and MK 21-23. Yet, for Frenchie, MK 21-23 is before IM 161, and for Moon Knight, it's after.

For Crawley, MK 22 is after IM 161, so it looks like Moon Knight's chronology is the good one. Then, proposed chronology for Frenchie :

FRENCHIE/JEAN-PAUL DUCHAMP
MK 20
* IM 161 moved here
MK 21
MK 22
MK 23
* IM 161 moved from here
PM&IF 87
MK 24

9) Steve Rogers and Bernie Rosenthal meet Hawkeye in the subway in HAWK 3. For Steve, it's in between A 235 and 236, and also in between CA 285 and 286, but for Bernie, it's before CA 284. If we correct Bernie's chronology :

ROSENTHAL, BERNIE
CA 282
A 233
* HAWK 3 moved from here
CA 284
CA 285
* HAWK 3 moved here
CA 286
CA 287
CA 288

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Re: miscellaneous minor misplacements part 4

Post by Michael » Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:14 am

michel wrote:6) After A@ 10, Rogue appears in UX 158, then in ROM 31-32. For Mystique, it's the opposite.

The rest of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants are freed in ROM 31, having been captured in A@ 10. We only see Rogue and Mystique in UX 158, it can be because the rest of the Brotherhood is in prison, but the two women are in a covert mission in the Pentagon. It seems more natural to have UX 158 before ROM 31-32, but it's not compulsory. If we follow this hypothesis, then proposed chronology for Mystique :

MYSTIQUE/RAVEN DARKHOLME/"MALLORY BRICKMAN"/"B. BYRON BIGGS"/"RONNIE LAKE"/"DALE FYFE"
A@ 10
* UX 158 moved here
ROM 31
ROM 32
* UX 158 moved from here
DAZZ 22
Murray Ward's Avengers Index 4 has ROM 31 as Mystique's and Rogue's next appearance after A@ 10.
michel wrote:9) Steve Rogers and Bernie Rosenthal meet Hawkeye in the subway in HAWK 3. For Steve, it's in between A 235 and 236, and also in between CA 285 and 286, but for Bernie, it's before CA 284. If we correct Bernie's chronology :

ROSENTHAL, BERNIE
CA 282
A 233
* HAWK 3 moved from here
CA 284
CA 285
* HAWK 3 moved here
CA 286
CA 287
CA 288
The problem is that Steve's and Bernie's chronologies are currently out of sync. CA 284-285 take place before A 233 for Steve but after A 233 for Bernie.

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Re: miscellaneous minor misplacements part 4

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:17 pm

5) The suggested correction for Foggy is confirmed:

NELSON, FRANKLIN P. "FOGGY"

DD 180
* M/FAN 1/2 moved from here
DD 181
* M/FAN 1/2 moved here
DD 182


6) The suggested correction for Mystique is confirmed.

MYSTIQUE

A@ 10
* UX 158 moved here
ROM 31
ROM 32
* UX 158 moved from here
DAZZ 22


7) The suggested placements are confirmed:

DARKSTAR

H2 259
*ROM 45 moved here
*ROM 46 moved here
COC 1
COC 2
COC 3-BTS
H2 277
H2 279
*ROM 45 moved from here
*ROM 46 moved from here
ROM 65


TORPEDO III

ROM 37
*ROM 40 moved here
*ROM 41 moved here
*ROM 42 moved here
COC 1
COC 2-BTS
COC 3-BTS
H2 279
*ROM 40 moved from here
*ROM 41 moved from here
*ROM 42 moved from here
ROM 49


URSA MAJOR

H2 259
*ROM 45 moved here
*ROM 46 moved here
COC 1
COC 2-BTS
COC 3-BTS
H2 277
H2 279
*ROM 45 moved from here
*ROM 46 moved from here
ROM 65


VANGUARD

H2 259
*ROM 45 moved here
*ROM 46 moved here
COC 1
COC 2-BTS
COC 3
H2 277
H2 279
*ROM 45 moved from here
*ROM 46 moved from here
ROM 65


8) Frenchie’s suggested correction is reflected in the Iron Man Index TPB.

FRENCHIE

MK 20
*IM 161 moved here
MK 21
MK 22
MK 23
*IM 161 moved from here
PM&IF 87


9) Bernie Rosenthal’s chronology does need correction, but this is what it should look like:

ROSENTHAL, BERNIE

CA 282
*CA 284 moved here
*CA 285 moved here
A 233
HAWK 3
*CA 284 moved from here
*CA 285 moved from here
*CA 600/3 (7:1, 7:3)-FB added
CA 286
Paul B.

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Re: miscellaneous minor misplacements part 4

Post by michel » Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:38 pm

That was quick ! Thanks, guys

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Re: miscellaneous minor misplacements part 4

Post by michel » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:05 pm

10) The Kingpin is currently listed BTS in S-W 46, before DD 170. I checked the book, the Kingpin makes a plain appearance here, and it seems misplaced. I have Spider-Woman in S-W 46 after DAZZ 17, Dazzler in DAZZ 17 after A 221, and Spider-Man in A 221 after PPTSS 67. So, suggested chronology :

KINGPIN/WILSON FISK
ASM 197
M/TU 100-FB-BTS
* S-W 46-BTS moved from here
DD 170
DD 171
DD 172 (1 - 13)
BGH 4-FB
DD 172 (15 - ?)
M/TU@ 4
DD 174
DD 175
DD 177
DD 178
DD 179
DD 180
DD 181
DD 182
PPTSS 67
* S-W 46 moved here, was S-W 46-BTS
PPTSS 69
PPTSS 70
DD 185

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Re: miscellaneous minor misplacements part 4

Post by Michael » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:11 pm

I think that what the S-W 46-BTS is referring to is the Kingpin's entry in Olshevsky's Amazing Spider-Man Index 9 for ASM 197, which reads "moves to the Orient following this story, where one of his operations is to engineer the escape from Vietnam of Nguyen Ngoc Coy, as revealed in SPIDER-WOMAN# 46; appears next in DAREDEVIL# 170". Under our current rules, the Kingpin helping Coy shouldn't be listed as a BTS, since it takes place months before S-W 46.

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Re: miscellaneous minor misplacements part 4

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:08 pm

My mileage varies slightly. I have Kingpin in S-W 46 between PPTSS 70 and DD 185.
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Re: miscellaneous minor misplacements part 4

Post by michel » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:11 pm

11) The only characters from T@12 listed in the MCP are Vidar, Solveig and Hoder. The recent Thor index has much more characters, including Thor and Odin, placed in between T 340 and 341 : Thor, Odin, Horvald, Grolf, Aslak, Hakon, Otny, Frigga, Thurnhild, Hugin, Munin

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Re: miscellaneous minor misplacements part 4

Post by michel » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:21 pm

Paul Bourcier wrote:My mileage varies slightly. I have Kingpin in S-W 46 between PPTSS 70 and DD 185.
Fine, then :

KINGPIN/WILSON FISK
ASM 197
M/TU 100-FB-BTS
* S-W 46-BTS moved from here
DD 170
DD 171
DD 172 (1 - 13)
BGH 4-FB
DD 172 (15 - ?)
M/TU@ 4
DD 174
DD 175
DD 177
DD 178
DD 179
DD 180
DD 181
DD 182
PPTSS 67
PPTSS 69
PPTSS 70
* S-W 46 moved here, was S-W 46-BTS
DD 185

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Re: miscellaneous minor misplacements part 4

Post by loki » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:32 pm

michel wrote:11) The only characters from T@12 listed in the MCP are Vidar, Solveig and Hoder. The recent Thor index has much more characters, including Thor and Odin, placed in between T 340 and 341 : Thor, Odin, Horvald, Grolf, Aslak, Hakon, Otny, Frigga, Thurnhild, Hugin, Munin
We're revising that placement. T@12 can't be between T 340 & T 341. The main reason is that Vidar is present amongst the Asgardians in Thor: Blood Oath #1 and 6, identified by name and as Odin's son (so not someone who just happens to have the same name), and that series is set during the JIM period of Thor's history. Vidar would not be hanging out with the Asgardians prior to MSH 5/1, which is the sequel to T@12; in T@12 the Asgardians didn't even know who he was. Add to that secondary evidence which suggests the Vidar stories were intended to be set much earlier: T@12 is subtitled "A Tale of Asgard", which is usually reserved for stories set well into Asgard's past; Odin has both his eyes in both T@12 and MSH 5/1. So T@12 and MSH 5/1 take place much earlier than initially assumed.

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Re: miscellaneous minor misplacements part 4

Post by michel » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:38 pm

Thank you for this explanation, loki

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Re: miscellaneous minor misplacements part 4

Post by michel » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:05 pm

12) PPTSS 77 is before ASM 238-239 for Spider-Man, but after ASM 239 for the Black Cat

BLACK CAT/FELICIA HARDY
ASM 227
PPTSS 74
PPTSS 75
PPTSS 76
ASM 239
PPTSS 77

PPTSS 78
PPTSS 79

The Black Cat is badly wounded and brought in a hospital in PPTSS 76. She returned in Peter's life at the end of PPTSS 74. ASM 238 doesn't mention the Black Cat or Dr. Octopus at all. In ASM 239, Spidey is at the Cat's bedside, and reckons Dr. Octopus has probably had his arms replaced, so we're clearly in between PPTSS 76 and 77, where Octopus with his new arms attacks the Cat.

So it's the Black Cat's chronology that seems right, and ASM 238 needs to be moved too in Spider-Man's chronology, either in between ASM@ 16 and PPTSS 74, or in between pages (21:5) and (21:6) of PPTSS 74

Proposed chronology :

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
ASM@ 16
* PPTSS 74 (1-21:5) splitted in two
* ASM 238 moved here
* PPTSS 74 (21:6-22) added

PPTSS 75
PPTSS 76
* ASM 239 moved here
PPTSS 77
* ASM 238 moved from here
* ASM 239 moved from here

PPTSS 78
PPTSS 79

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Re: miscellaneous minor misplacements part 4

Post by Michael » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:35 pm

This was discussed before but no action was taken:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3914
Incidentally, tlynch was right about the Vermin reference in PPTSS 78. Is there a reason that reference was ignored? We'd have to be careful moving M/TU 128 in Peter's chronology, since M/FAN 6 is placed before A 228 in the Scarlet Witch's chronology (the placement is taken from Ward's Avengers Index 4) and M/TU 128 is placed after A 230 in Captain America's chronology, but I'm not sure if M/TU 128 couldn't be moved before PPTSS 78.

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