Marvel stories set in 616, produced outside the US
Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:31 pm
At Jeph's suggestion, I'm bringing a disucssion to the MCP that I began on the Index lists.
There's been a number of stories produced in countries outside the US. While some are not 616 (X-Campus, Hulk manga, either Spider-Man manga, etc), there are others which are part of 616 continuity, and some which need examined to see if they might be. The most obvious example, the Captain Britain stories, are already covered here, and some others are (Europa, Saudade, for example). But many are not. I'm interested in closing that particular gap, and in getting feedback regarding where stuff might fit.
The first one I've looked at is placing the Hulk story in Smash! #38, '66. It's the first UK produced Marvel strip, pre-dating Marvel UK's inception by several years. The placement is actually easy enough, as the strip makes it very clear, so I'm including it mainly for completeness. It's set immediately after the Hulk fought the Avengers in Av #3. So for the Hulk, per the MCP's listing, it would be
A 3 (21 - 25)
Smash! 38
FF 25
The antagonist in the story is a villainous matador named Manuel - this has been confirmed in the handbooks to be Manuel Elongato, aka the Matador, prior to his criminal days. Which means for Matador's MCP listing it would be
Smash! 38
DD 5-FB
DD 5
Next up, Hulk Comic/Hulk Weekly, which had several stories, not just the Black Knight/Captain Britain Otherworld saga. The MCP has that covered for CB and BK, but not for Valinor, Merlyn, Roma, Arthur Pendragon, the elf Jackdaw or Mordred, all of whom also appear. Plus there's the Nethergods, who appear in this story, but are shown to have been bts in a lot of prior BK and CB stories.
Before I get on to those individuals who are missing British appearances, I'd like to discuss amending the placement of CB's appearance in Hulk #279 at the pardoning parade. It's currently placed during his Black Knight saga appearances, and I simply don't think that can work. Having BK and CB snatched out of time and space in the early part of the Otherworld saga for Grandmaster's tournament in CoC, yes, I can see that, but CB then hanging round for the parade? He's largely amnesiac at the time - he's been told who he is, but he doesn't really remember it properly. I think that either it has to go earlier, before Brian tries to return home prior to the Black Knight saga, or it goes after he came home and the costume is wrong (just like he's depicted in the wrong costume for his appearance in Rom). Is there any reason the Black Knight saga couldn't start after Hulk #279? Both CB and Black Knight don't interact much with the rest of the Marvel universe for some time on either side.
At the moment I only have notes for some of the above individuals as to which specific issues of the Otherworld saga they appeared in. I'll try and cover the others as and when I can find time, but for now:
Jackdaw - the MCP lists a Jackdaw II in Xcal #62, which would be Meggan's horse. The elf predates the horse, and the criminal now known as Blackbird. I'd suggest not numbering to begin with, but if you are sticking with that, then the elf is Jackdaw I, Blackbird is II, and the horse is III.
Jackdaw (elf)
HC 57/2
HC 58/2
HC 59/2
HC 60/2
M/SH2 377 (1:1 - 1:8)
M/SH2 385
M/SH2 377 (1:9 - 5:10)
M/SH2 378
M/SH2 380
M/SH2 381
M/SH2 382
M/SH2 383
M/SH2 386
M/SH2 387
M/SH2 388
Roma - amend the current
CB 37
DDS 1
to
CB 37
HC 51/2
HC 54/2
HC 55/2
HC 62/2
DDS 1
Mordred the Evil
Amend the current
M/SH 17
DEF 11
HC 1/2
HC 3/2
HC 4/2
HC 5/2
BK2 1
to
DEF 11
M/SH 17
HC 1/2
HC 3/2
HC 4/2
HC 5/2
HC 7/2
HC 8/2
HC #9/2 BTS
HC 10/2
HC 11/2
HC 26/2 BTS
HC 27/2
HC 28/2
HC 29/2
HC 30/2
HC 42/2
BK2 1
Arthur Pendragon - listing currently ends with
M/SH 17-FB
Following this he appears in
MYSARC:BK
HC 44/2 fb BTS
Rom 37
HC 43/2 fb BTS
HC 59/2
HC 60/2~M/SH2 377
HC 61/2
HC 62/2
HC 63/2
M/SH2 377
DWM 60
M/SH2 381
MWM 13
I'll have to come back to Merlyn and Valinor later.
Ant-Man's story (HC #48-49) has nothing to help place it, bar it being printed immediately following a reprint of Marvel Feature #10. Since Pym had briefly reverted to being Ant-Man around this time, I see no reason not to place the HC story right after this. This would mean that the Yellowjacket listing would be amended to inset the HC stories
M/FEA 10
HC 48/5
HC 49/5
A 139-FB
For the Hulk stories (HC #1-6, 9-20, 26-28), while early issues are self-contained and could be split off from the others, I'd suggest keeping things simple and grouping them together. The later ones follow directly one from one another, and take place over only a couple of days. Only HC #2's story is over any amount of time, as there's a "several days" gap between the main part of the story and the epilogue. The Hulk's handbook bibliography
http://marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Bibli ... _2007#Hulk
gives a rough region of placement between Incredible Hulk #293 and Incredible Hulk #231. Of these two end points, I'd suggest it should be closer to #231 to keep it close to publication dates. Is there a suitable gap just prior to Incredible Hulk #231?
If #231 doesn't work, I'd considered a placement only a little later, during the week long gap in Incredible Hulk #238 (after he threatens a man driving a truck, and before he stops on Mount Rushmore). If it wasn't for those "several days" gap in HC #2, the entirety of HC's stories would easily fit into less than a week, and this would place them close to the chronological release dates. Plus, he's in the right part of the country at both start and end of these adventures. So if we squint a bit and take HC #2's "several days" to mean no more than three or four, and Hulk #238's "a week later" to mean "a week, plus maybe a couple of extra days", it could work. The next available gap I can see would be between Hulk #243 and 244. There's a ton of other adventures in there, and gaps between them. The narrative given in #243 covering what Hulk is getting up to outside his own magazine suggests that it should take place after the DD #163 appearance, but DD flows into IM (Hulk is
in New York in both stories, which doesn't fit with him running out into the US wilderness and back between these). If we went with this placement, I'd suggest just before Hulk Annual #9, which begins with Banner driving back to NYC from the midwest, putting the HC stories between DD #87 and Hulk Annual #9.
Finally for the moment, the Nick Fury (HC 1-19) storyline takes place over a week or two, max. The only in-story evidence for placement is that Fury is dating Laura Brown (but it's not too serious as Fury also hits on another female agent at the end of the story), that Jimmy Woo, Gaffer, Val, Gabe and Dum Dum are all active agents, and that Fury and SHIELD believe the Yellow Claw is dead. Circumstantial evidence: the stories in HC immediately led into reprints of Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD #7 (1968), which might suggest putting Fury's Hulk Comic appearances between NFAoS 6 and 7. However, Nick Fury's handbook entry broadly places this between MTU 95 (sentence prior to discussing his UK stories mentions working with Mockingbird to root out corrupt SHIELD agents) and W/NF (sentence after mentions learning about his son Mikel), while the Master List places it more concisely as being between CA 279 and Incredible Hulk 279. I'm loathe to contradict that unless the placement doesn't work. So the questions are: does that latter placement fit, and if so how does then which issues do the HC stories fit between in Laura Brown, Jimmy Woo, Gaffer, Val, Gabe, Dum Dum and Yellow Claw's chronologies?
There's been a number of stories produced in countries outside the US. While some are not 616 (X-Campus, Hulk manga, either Spider-Man manga, etc), there are others which are part of 616 continuity, and some which need examined to see if they might be. The most obvious example, the Captain Britain stories, are already covered here, and some others are (Europa, Saudade, for example). But many are not. I'm interested in closing that particular gap, and in getting feedback regarding where stuff might fit.
The first one I've looked at is placing the Hulk story in Smash! #38, '66. It's the first UK produced Marvel strip, pre-dating Marvel UK's inception by several years. The placement is actually easy enough, as the strip makes it very clear, so I'm including it mainly for completeness. It's set immediately after the Hulk fought the Avengers in Av #3. So for the Hulk, per the MCP's listing, it would be
A 3 (21 - 25)
Smash! 38
FF 25
The antagonist in the story is a villainous matador named Manuel - this has been confirmed in the handbooks to be Manuel Elongato, aka the Matador, prior to his criminal days. Which means for Matador's MCP listing it would be
Smash! 38
DD 5-FB
DD 5
Next up, Hulk Comic/Hulk Weekly, which had several stories, not just the Black Knight/Captain Britain Otherworld saga. The MCP has that covered for CB and BK, but not for Valinor, Merlyn, Roma, Arthur Pendragon, the elf Jackdaw or Mordred, all of whom also appear. Plus there's the Nethergods, who appear in this story, but are shown to have been bts in a lot of prior BK and CB stories.
Before I get on to those individuals who are missing British appearances, I'd like to discuss amending the placement of CB's appearance in Hulk #279 at the pardoning parade. It's currently placed during his Black Knight saga appearances, and I simply don't think that can work. Having BK and CB snatched out of time and space in the early part of the Otherworld saga for Grandmaster's tournament in CoC, yes, I can see that, but CB then hanging round for the parade? He's largely amnesiac at the time - he's been told who he is, but he doesn't really remember it properly. I think that either it has to go earlier, before Brian tries to return home prior to the Black Knight saga, or it goes after he came home and the costume is wrong (just like he's depicted in the wrong costume for his appearance in Rom). Is there any reason the Black Knight saga couldn't start after Hulk #279? Both CB and Black Knight don't interact much with the rest of the Marvel universe for some time on either side.
At the moment I only have notes for some of the above individuals as to which specific issues of the Otherworld saga they appeared in. I'll try and cover the others as and when I can find time, but for now:
Jackdaw - the MCP lists a Jackdaw II in Xcal #62, which would be Meggan's horse. The elf predates the horse, and the criminal now known as Blackbird. I'd suggest not numbering to begin with, but if you are sticking with that, then the elf is Jackdaw I, Blackbird is II, and the horse is III.
Jackdaw (elf)
HC 57/2
HC 58/2
HC 59/2
HC 60/2
M/SH2 377 (1:1 - 1:8)
M/SH2 385
M/SH2 377 (1:9 - 5:10)
M/SH2 378
M/SH2 380
M/SH2 381
M/SH2 382
M/SH2 383
M/SH2 386
M/SH2 387
M/SH2 388
Roma - amend the current
CB 37
DDS 1
to
CB 37
HC 51/2
HC 54/2
HC 55/2
HC 62/2
DDS 1
Mordred the Evil
Amend the current
M/SH 17
DEF 11
HC 1/2
HC 3/2
HC 4/2
HC 5/2
BK2 1
to
DEF 11
M/SH 17
HC 1/2
HC 3/2
HC 4/2
HC 5/2
HC 7/2
HC 8/2
HC #9/2 BTS
HC 10/2
HC 11/2
HC 26/2 BTS
HC 27/2
HC 28/2
HC 29/2
HC 30/2
HC 42/2
BK2 1
Arthur Pendragon - listing currently ends with
M/SH 17-FB
Following this he appears in
MYSARC:BK
HC 44/2 fb BTS
Rom 37
HC 43/2 fb BTS
HC 59/2
HC 60/2~M/SH2 377
HC 61/2
HC 62/2
HC 63/2
M/SH2 377
DWM 60
M/SH2 381
MWM 13
I'll have to come back to Merlyn and Valinor later.
Ant-Man's story (HC #48-49) has nothing to help place it, bar it being printed immediately following a reprint of Marvel Feature #10. Since Pym had briefly reverted to being Ant-Man around this time, I see no reason not to place the HC story right after this. This would mean that the Yellowjacket listing would be amended to inset the HC stories
M/FEA 10
HC 48/5
HC 49/5
A 139-FB
For the Hulk stories (HC #1-6, 9-20, 26-28), while early issues are self-contained and could be split off from the others, I'd suggest keeping things simple and grouping them together. The later ones follow directly one from one another, and take place over only a couple of days. Only HC #2's story is over any amount of time, as there's a "several days" gap between the main part of the story and the epilogue. The Hulk's handbook bibliography
http://marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Bibli ... _2007#Hulk
gives a rough region of placement between Incredible Hulk #293 and Incredible Hulk #231. Of these two end points, I'd suggest it should be closer to #231 to keep it close to publication dates. Is there a suitable gap just prior to Incredible Hulk #231?
If #231 doesn't work, I'd considered a placement only a little later, during the week long gap in Incredible Hulk #238 (after he threatens a man driving a truck, and before he stops on Mount Rushmore). If it wasn't for those "several days" gap in HC #2, the entirety of HC's stories would easily fit into less than a week, and this would place them close to the chronological release dates. Plus, he's in the right part of the country at both start and end of these adventures. So if we squint a bit and take HC #2's "several days" to mean no more than three or four, and Hulk #238's "a week later" to mean "a week, plus maybe a couple of extra days", it could work. The next available gap I can see would be between Hulk #243 and 244. There's a ton of other adventures in there, and gaps between them. The narrative given in #243 covering what Hulk is getting up to outside his own magazine suggests that it should take place after the DD #163 appearance, but DD flows into IM (Hulk is
in New York in both stories, which doesn't fit with him running out into the US wilderness and back between these). If we went with this placement, I'd suggest just before Hulk Annual #9, which begins with Banner driving back to NYC from the midwest, putting the HC stories between DD #87 and Hulk Annual #9.
Finally for the moment, the Nick Fury (HC 1-19) storyline takes place over a week or two, max. The only in-story evidence for placement is that Fury is dating Laura Brown (but it's not too serious as Fury also hits on another female agent at the end of the story), that Jimmy Woo, Gaffer, Val, Gabe and Dum Dum are all active agents, and that Fury and SHIELD believe the Yellow Claw is dead. Circumstantial evidence: the stories in HC immediately led into reprints of Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD #7 (1968), which might suggest putting Fury's Hulk Comic appearances between NFAoS 6 and 7. However, Nick Fury's handbook entry broadly places this between MTU 95 (sentence prior to discussing his UK stories mentions working with Mockingbird to root out corrupt SHIELD agents) and W/NF (sentence after mentions learning about his son Mikel), while the Master List places it more concisely as being between CA 279 and Incredible Hulk 279. I'm loathe to contradict that unless the placement doesn't work. So the questions are: does that latter placement fit, and if so how does then which issues do the HC stories fit between in Laura Brown, Jimmy Woo, Gaffer, Val, Gabe, Dum Dum and Yellow Claw's chronologies?