Atlantis Attacks/Acts of Vengeance, take seventeen

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Atlantis Attacks/Acts of Vengeance, take seventeen

Post by JephYork » Mon May 23, 2011 9:40 pm

Starting this new thread so as not to derail the "Wolverine in Cap #363" thread.

It seems like the simplest solution to solve the dilemma of XFac #51 seeming to occur before Atlantis Attacks (and thus before Cap #363), and XFac #49-50's Apocalypse scenes seeming to occur after Cap #366 ... is to ignore Apocalypse's verbal reference to the Red Skull.

We know that Loki was starting to organize his little cabal prior to the end of Atlantis Attacks (since, in NM #86-87, the Vulture is approached to join the group -- and Atlantis Attacks occurs between NM #87-88).

So maybe Apoc's viewing the very very early stages of the cabal's formation in XFac #49-50. Call the Red Skull mention an error, and we don't have to place XFac #49-50 after Cap #366. They can slide back before Cap #363, before the end of Atlantis Attacks and before XFac #51. Where they belong.

-Jeph!

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Re: Wolverine in Cap #363

Post by metaldragon » Tue May 24, 2011 11:32 am

JephYork wrote:It seems like the simplest solution to solve the dilemma of XFac #51 seeming to occur before Atlantis Attacks (and thus before Cap #363), and XFac #49-50's Apocalypse scenes seeming to occur after Cap #366 ... is to ignore Apocalypse's verbal reference to the Red Skull.

We know that Loki was starting to organize his little cabal prior to the end of Atlantis Attacks (since, in NM #86-87, the Vulture is approached to join the group -- and Atlantis Attacks occurs between NM #87-88).

So maybe Apoc's viewing the very very early stages of the cabal's formation in XFac #49-50. Call the Red Skull mention an error, and we don't have to place XFac #49-50 after Cap #366. They can slide back before Cap #363, before the end of Atlantis Attacks and before XFac #51. Where they belong.

-Jeph!
Why? If you simply ignore a "meanwhile" in XF 50 & consider the sections in XF 51 with Apocalypse & Caliban as watching a recording of stuff that's happened a few days back, there is no need to worry about the Red Skull.
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Re: Wolverine in Cap #363

Post by JephYork » Tue May 24, 2011 12:05 pm

What you seem to be asking is "why do something simple when you can do something complicated?"

Those scenes are NOT a recording of stuff that happened a few days back. You're talking about ripping the issue apart and having certain scenes occur at one point, and different scenes occurring at a different point.

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Re: Wolverine in Cap #363

Post by metaldragon » Tue May 24, 2011 12:53 pm

The sections with Apocalypse in XF 51 have him looking at a screen and discussing it with Caliban. There is no reason why it can't be a recording. In fact, it pretty much has to unless you wish to place those parts BEFORE his fight with Loki in Acts of Vengeance. Which cannot happen because Caliban leaves at the end of XF 51 and helps fight Loki alongside Apocalypse in XF 50/2.

The events of XF 51 need to go:

NM@ 5 Atlantis Attacks
XF 51 (everything except Apocalypse & Caliban bits)
NM 88 pgs 1-9
Atlantis Attacks (conclusion)
Acts of Vengeance (NM 83-86 [Rusty & Skids bits], XF 49 pgs 16 & 30 - XF 50/2 [Apocalypse bits])
XF 51 pgs 3-4, 14-15, 29-30 (Apocalypse & Caliban watch events of XF 51 on screen)
NM 88 pgs 9-end
JephYork wrote:What you seem to be asking is "why do something simple when you can do something complicated?"

Those scenes are NOT a recording of stuff that happened a few days back. You're talking about ripping the issue apart and having certain scenes occur at one point, and different scenes occurring at a different point.

-Jeph!
You are proposing we ignore dialogue and picture evidence of placement. I will print my analysis of Apocalypse's involvement in Acts of Vengeance here again because it's not just the Red Skull he talks about:
XF 49, pg 16 & 30- Page 16: Apocalypse tries to make sense of Acts of Vengeance, mentions "interesting & bizarre Alliances... Magneto and the Red Skull... the Kingpin and Doctor Doom... and the Wizard." Shown on his screens: top row- Magneto, Mandarin (?), Kingpin, middle row: Juggernaut, Hobgoblin, Foolkiller (?) Doctor Doom, bottom row: Red Skull, Wizard. Page 30: Apocalypse searches for the link between them and brings the mysterious man in the suit (Loki) up onscreen who suddenly praises Apocalypse's insight and then transports himself through Apocalypse's screen. "I offer you the opportunity to join with me... to lead my acts of vengeance here on Earth."
How you can reconcile this as somehow taking place before Jean is kidnapped in XF@ 4 during Atlantis Attacks between pages in NM 88 (which happens AFTER XF 51!) I have no idea.
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Re: Wolverine in Cap #363

Post by JephYork » Tue May 24, 2011 1:04 pm

How you can reconcile this as somehow taking place before Jean is kidnapped in XF@ 4 during Atlantis Attacks between pages in NM 88 (which happens AFTER XF 51!) I have no idea.
You just asked how I could reconcile X-Factor #49 occuring before X-Factor #51. Think about that for a minute.

Maybe you missed my suggestion. Yes -- I *am* suggesting placing the Apocalypse/Loki fight in #50/2 before the conclusion of Atlantis Attacks and the start of Acts of Vengeance.
You are proposing we ignore dialogue and picture evidence of placement.
Yes. Yes I am.

As I said: we already have evidence that Loki was gathering his cabal prior to Atlantis Attacks chapter 9 (the New Mutants Annual). The Vulture was approached by Loki in NM #85-86, and the New Mutants Atlantis Attacks Annual occurs between #87-88. Therefore, Loki's scheme began before Atlantis Attacks ended.

The X-Factor Annual is chapter 10. Therefore, it also occurs after Loki begins gathering his cabal.

If all of X-Factor #51 occurs before the X-Factor Annual -- as it should -- then what Apoc could be witnessing in #50/2 is the *very early stages* of the cabal coming together. Loki approaches him to join; they fight. Then X-Factor #51 happens, Caliban leaves Apoc, X-Factor returns to Earth and gets involved in chapters 10-14 of Atlantis Attacks. Then, Loki finalizes his cabal and the main body of Acts of Vengeance begins.

And all we have to do is ignore the mention of the Red Skull in #50/2.

-Jeph!

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Re: Wolverine in Cap #363

Post by metaldragon » Tue May 24, 2011 1:15 pm

JephYork wrote:
How you can reconcile this as somehow taking place before Jean is kidnapped in XF@ 4 during Atlantis Attacks between pages in NM 88 (which happens AFTER XF 51!) I have no idea.
You just asked how I could reconcile X-Factor #49 occuring before X-Factor #51. Think about that for a minute.

Maybe you missed my suggestion. Yes -- I *am* suggesting placing the Apocalypse/Loki fight in #50/2 before the conclusion of Atlantis Attacks and the start of Acts of Vengeance.
You are proposing we ignore dialogue and picture evidence of placement.
Yes. Yes I am.

As I said: we already have evidence that Loki was gathering his cabal prior to Atlantis Attacks chapter 9 (the New Mutants Annual). The Vulture was approached by Loki in NM #85-86, and the New Mutants Atlantis Attacks Annual occurs between #87-88. Therefore, Loki's scheme began before Atlantis Attacks ended.

The X-Factor Annual is chapter 10. Therefore, it also occurs after Loki begins gathering his cabal.

If all of X-Factor #51 occurs before the X-Factor Annual -- as it should -- then what Apoc could be witnessing in #50/2 is the *very early stages* of the cabal coming together. Loki approaches him to join; they fight. Then X-Factor #51 happens, Caliban leaves Apoc, X-Factor returns to Earth and gets involved in chapters 10-14 of Atlantis Attacks. Then, Loki finalizes his cabal and the main body of Acts of Vengeance begins.

And all we have to do is ignore the mention of the Red Skull in #50/2.

-Jeph!
It's still not that simple. NM 83 takes place AFTER Avengers Spotlight 26. That event is mentioned in dialogue and a footnote. Doesn't Avengers Spotlight 26 take place after Atlantis Attacks? Also, Freedom Force appear in NM 86 right after UX 255 and right before A312. Freedom Force ties the New Mutants part to the X-Men (including Wolverine), and to Captain America in the Avengers. Your placing Apocalypse & Loki before Atlantis Attacks. You cannot use the Vulture as an example of Acts of Vengeance taking place before Atlantis Attacks because he only got his wings AFTER Avengers Spotlight 26.
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Re: Wolverine in Cap #363

Post by JephYork » Tue May 24, 2011 1:20 pm

NM 83 takes place AFTER Avengers Spotlight 26. That event is mentioned in dialogue and a footnote.
What "event"?
Doesn't Avengers Spotlight 26 take place after Atlantis Attacks?
I have no idea.
Freedom Force appear in NM 86 right after UX 255 and right before A312.
Based on what evidence?
he only got his wings AFTER Avengers Spotlight 26.
How do you know this?

-Jeph!

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Re: Wolverine in Cap #363

Post by metaldragon » Tue May 24, 2011 1:29 pm

JephYork wrote:
NM 83 takes place AFTER Avengers Spotlight 26. That event is mentioned in dialogue and a footnote.
What "event"?
Doesn't Avengers Spotlight 26 take place after Atlantis Attacks?
I have no idea.
Freedom Force appear in NM 86 right after UX 255 and right before A312.
Based on what evidence?
he only got his wings AFTER Avengers Spotlight 26.
How do you know this?

-Jeph!
Like pulling teeth...

1: The event of Avengers Spotlight 26. Which is the beginning of Acts of Vengeance. It's referred to in NM 83.

2: If you don't have any idea, why are you questioning my logic?

3: Based on dialogue in NM 86 where Destiny & Stonewall's death in UX 255 is mentioned as "just" occuring. Also based on the listings for members of Freedom Force. Also based on their appearance in A312 where they fight Captain America.

4: See 1. Vulture reads a newspaper article about the Vault break-out in NM 83 and a footnote specifically mentions the Vault break-out occurs in Avengers Spotlight 26. This is the beginning of Acts of Vengeance. After that, Vulture gets the package with his wings. I know it by having the comics involved right in front of me.
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Re: Atlantis Attacks/Acts of Vengeance, take seventeen

Post by JephYork » Tue May 24, 2011 1:37 pm

I'm sorry this is difficult for you. Not everyone is 100% conversent with every little plot point in every book. You might try *explaining* each of your assertations as you make them, if you don't want me going "why?"

Thanks for explaining that Destiny and Stonewall's UXM #255 deaths are namechecked in New Mutants #86. But remember -- NM #86 is *before Atlantis Attacks chapter 9*. UXM #255 is AFTER UX Annual #13, which is Atlantis Attacks chapter 3.

And Wolverine #19-20, Acts of Vengeance tie-ins, are *before* UXM #249. Which means they're also before UXM #255 and before NM #86 and before Atlantis Attacks chapter 9.

You're actually giving me MORE evidence that Acts of Vengeance began in the middle of Atlantis Attacks.

Also:
Doesn't Avengers Spotlight 26 take place after Atlantis Attacks?
I have no idea.
If you don't have any idea, why are you questioning my logic?
Because you ASKED A QUESTION about its placement. Which makes it sounds like you don't have any idea either.

-Jeph!

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Re: Atlantis Attacks/Acts of Vengeance, take seventeen

Post by metaldragon » Tue May 24, 2011 1:43 pm

JephYork wrote:I'm sorry this is difficult for you. Not everyone is 100% conversent with every little plot point in every book. You might try *explaining* each of your assertations as you make them, if you don't want me going "why?"

Thanks for explaining that Destiny and Stonewall's UXM #255 deaths are namechecked in New Mutants #86. But remember -- NM #86 is *before Atlantis Attacks chapter 9*. UXM #255 is AFTER UX Annual #13, which is Atlantis Attacks chapter 3.

And Wolverine #19-20, Acts of Vengeance tie-ins, are *before* UXM #249. Which means they're also before UXM #255 and before NM #86 and before Atlantis Attacks chapter 9.

You're actually giving me MORE evidence that Acts of Vengeance began in the middle of Atlantis Attacks.

Also:
Doesn't Avengers Spotlight 26 take place after Atlantis Attacks?
I have no idea.
If you don't have any idea, why are you questioning my logic?
Because you ASKED A QUESTION about its placement. Which makes it sounds like you don't have any idea either.

-Jeph!
There are two storylines in NM 83-86 which are completely separate from each other. The main storyline with the New Mutants in Asgard and Rusty & Skids on Earth. The Asgard storyline has to take place before Atlantis Attacks. The Rusty & Skids vs Vulture & Freedom Force story takes place after Avengers Spotlight 26 and before Avengers 312. The only moment when the 2 separate storylines actually finally converge is during NM 88. Hence your confusion.
Last edited by metaldragon on Tue May 24, 2011 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Atlantis Attacks/Acts of Vengeance, take seventeen

Post by JephYork » Tue May 24, 2011 1:46 pm

I'm not confused. I just don't like splitting concurrently-running storylines apart unless absolutely necessary. To rationalize this off, we seem to have to rip NM #83-88 in half, and rip X-Factor #51 in half. That doesn't sit well with me.

So: DOES Spotlight #26 occur after Atlantis Attacks?

-Jeph!

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Re: Atlantis Attacks/Acts of Vengeance, take seventeen

Post by metaldragon » Tue May 24, 2011 1:53 pm

JephYork wrote:I'm not confused. I just don't like splitting concurrently-running storylines apart unless absolutely necessary. To rationalize this off, we seem to have to rip NM #83-88 in half, and rip X-Factor #51 in half. That doesn't sit well with me.

-Jeph!
That's the only way it works in the greater continuity. I've done a few breakdowns of why in previous threads. It's the ONLY way things fit unless you completely ignore the series of events in NM 87- NM@ 5- NM 87 which were explicitly the writers intent. While the New Mutants were in Asgard, X-Factor were in space. They both return, around the same time, during Atlantis Attacks. Then, according to the rest of the Marvel Universe, Acts of Vengeance occurs. That means, the parts with Rusty & Skids and the parts with Apocalypse & Caliban must occur after Atlantis Attacks. The writers painted themselves into a corner that way by trying to have something current while finishing off the main ongoing storylines.

Yes, according to Captain America's chronology here, Spotlight 26 takes place after he appears in Atlantis Attacks.
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Re: Atlantis Attacks/Acts of Vengeance, take seventeen

Post by JephYork » Tue May 24, 2011 2:02 pm

Yes, according to Captain America's chronology here, Spotlight 26 takes place after he appears in Atlantis Attacks.
"Captain America's chronology here" can be changed. Easily. You can't use the MCP listings to argue chronology. What's the in-book evidence?

Actually -- since I'm on deadline and this is all pretty much irrelevant to my current Index workload, I'm going to put it aside for now. But I'm still think it's worth investigating creating an overlap between the start of Acts of Vengeance and the end of Atlantis Attacks for the greater Marvel Universe.

-Jeph!

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Re: Atlantis Attacks/Acts of Vengeance, take seventeen

Post by metaldragon » Tue May 24, 2011 2:46 pm

JephYork wrote:
Yes, according to Captain America's chronology here, Spotlight 26 takes place after he appears in Atlantis Attacks.
"Captain America's chronology here" can be changed. Easily. You can't use the MCP listings to argue chronology. What's the in-book evidence?

Actually -- since I'm on deadline and this is all pretty much irrelevant to my current Index workload, I'm going to put it aside for now. But I'm still think it's worth investigating creating an overlap between the start of Acts of Vengeance and the end of Atlantis Attacks for the greater Marvel Universe.

-Jeph!
That was the only example I checked. I'm sure if I were to check other Avengers involvement in Atlantis Attacks & Avengers Spotlight 26 it would show a similar placement. Why change the rest of the Marvel Universe when only X-Factor & New Mutants are the only variant? The writers had an ongoing storyline which overlapped with 2 events. Instead of publishing stories which crossed over with those events 3 months after all the rest of the Marvel titles, they did secondary stories which were meant to take place after the main storylines conclusions, published concurrent with the rest of the Marvel universe titles in the crossovers.
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Re: Atlantis Attacks/Acts of Vengeance, take seventeen

Post by JephYork » Tue May 24, 2011 4:30 pm

'm sure if I were to check other Avengers involvement in Atlantis Attacks & Avengers Spotlight 26 it would show a similar placement.
I sure hope you're not talking about checking other characters' MCP listings. They can be changed too.
X-Factor & New Mutants are the only variant
And Wolverine. Right now, I have three X-books saying one consistent thing. I don't know enough about the other books involved to know if they say one consistent *different* thing, and how loudly both parties say it -- but three books in agreement makes for a compelling enough case in my mind that I'd like to *consider* solutions beyond "those books all need to be ripped apart and re-ordered."

Right now I'm wrestling with the roadblock that (IIRC) Namor is presumed dead for most of Atlantis Attacks, and there he is swimming around in Cap #366. So my idea might die stillborn. But I'm not sure why I'm getting so much resistance to even *considering the idea*. Like I said, none of this is relevant to my Index work, so it's not like it's going to be printed and "ratified" unless you fight me tooth and nail. It's just an intellectual exercise at this point. What would happen if we tried thinking about it *this* way...?

-Jeph!

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