Spider-Man in FF 372-378

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michel
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Spider-Man in FF 372-378

Post by michel » Sun May 29, 2011 5:19 pm

Something doesn't seem right in Spider-Man's appearances in FF 372 through 378. I can't check the books right now, can somebody give me his thoughts before I get to them ?

Right now, Spider-Man's chronology reads :

SPIDER-MAN
ASM 371-375
MTW 2
FF 372-373
ASM 375/2
FF 374

V:LP 1-6
WOSM 97-100
FF 376-378
S-M 32-34
ASM 376-377
ASM@ 27
ASM@ 27/3
PPTSS 197-200
WOSM@ 9
NW 32-33
NW@ 3

DHAWK 27
[...]
IC 1

But here is the Human Torch listing, the Thing's one is similar :

HUMAN TORCH
FF 370
MK3 44
FF@ 25
A@ 21
H2 399
MTW 1-3
FFU 3
NW 33-34
NW@ 3
FF 371-375

S-H2 55
FFU 1
FFU 1/2-BTS
Q 50
FFU 2
[IC 1-6]
FF 376
FF@ 26-BTS
FF 377-383


The problem : FF 372-378 is before NW 32-33 + @3 and Infinity Crusade for Spider-Man. For the FF, FF 371-375 is in between NW 33-34 + @3 and IC 1, and FF 376-378 is after IC 6. Can anybody provide some in-books placements ?

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Re: Spider-Man in FF 372-378

Post by Michael » Sun May 29, 2011 7:00 pm

This is tied up with the question of a footnote in NW 34. In NW 34, there's a footnote that states that NW 32-34 take place before DRSTR3 50. The problem is that DRSTR3 50 apparently takes place before FF 374 and there was discussion about whether or not this caused problems in various characters' chronologies. I know this was discussed but I can't seem to find it. Somebody, could you find it, if you have a chance?

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Re: Spider-Man in FF 372-378

Post by michel » Mon May 30, 2011 5:49 am

Right now I only have access to the Spider-Man books, so I've checked ASM 375/2 : it's indeed in between FF 373 and 374, but not necessarily just after ASM 375

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Re: Spider-Man in FF 372-378

Post by Michael » Mon May 30, 2011 9:46 am

OK, I think I found the problem. It's described in Archive 36:
Re: New Warriors problem
Posted by Administrator on July 03, 2003 at 23:02:35:
In Reply to: Re: New Warriors problem
posted by Paul Bourcier on July 03, 2003 at 20:37:46:

Okay, I've got another one...

A footnote in New Warriors #32, pg. 18, says "*This takes place after events depicted in Dr. Strange [vol. 3] #50."

A footnote in New Warriors #34, pg. 7, says "*This takes place prior to Dr. Strange #50".

While the footnote in NW 32 is not attached to any particular copy, the one in NW 34 is attached to Strange's word balloon: "If light and reason be abducted so abruptly--may Seraphim's shield choose to protect me--*"

Is DRSTR3 50 one of those turning points where he's not allowed to call on the Seraphim? If so, that would suggest the footnote in nw 32 is incorrect.

* * *

Re: New Warriors problem
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 04, 2003 at 09:05:20:
In Reply to: Re: New Warriors problem
posted by Administrator on July 03, 2003 at 23:02:35:

> A footnote in New Warriors #32, pg. 18, says "*This takes place after events depicted in Dr. Strange [vol. 3] #50."

> A footnote in New Warriors #34, pg. 7, says "*This takes place prior to Dr. Strange #50".

> While the footnote in NW 32 is not attached to any particular copy, the one in NW 34 is attached to Strange's word balloon: "If light and reason be abducted so abruptly--may Seraphim's shield choose to protect me--*"

> Is DRSTR3 50 one of those turning points where he's not allowed to call on the Seraphim? If so, that would suggest the footnote in nw 32 is incorrect.

Actually, DRSTR3 49 is the turning point. In that issue, Strange renounced the Seraphim and a host of other mystical bodies and was stripped of his Sorcerer Supreme title. DRSTR2 49 follows directly from DRSTR2 48. So NW 34 must occur before DRSTR2 48.

--Paul
So, if we assume that the footnote in NW 32 was incorrect, we get one placement for NW 32-34 and NW@ 3, and if we assume that the footnote in NW 34 is incorrect, and the reference to the Seraphim is incorrect (Strange could have protected himself with some other spell) we get another placement.
One thing to keep in mind when considering this problem is that NW 31 follows directly from X 17. Can DRSTR3 49-50 and FF 374 take place after X 17?
(As an aside: I'm sure that the chronological implications of which footnote is correct were discussed in greater detail in the Archives but I couldn't find it. If anyone could, I'd be grateful.)

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Re: Spider-Man in FF 372-378

Post by michel » Mon May 30, 2011 3:08 pm

Michael wrote:OK, I think I found the problem. It's described in Archive 36
You're a great digger Michael ! :thumbsup:

So, if we assume that the footnote in NW 32 was incorrect, we get one placement for NW 32-34 and NW@ 3, and if we assume that the footnote in NW 34 is incorrect, and the reference to the Seraphim is incorrect (Strange could have protected himself with some other spell) we get another placement.
Dr. Strange's listing in consistent with the NW 34 footnote. Actually, I didn't find any listing fitting the NW 32 footnote. Concerning the IC placement, only Daredevil, Silver Sable, Spider-Man and some Spidey characters have FF 376-378 before IC

One thing to keep in mind when considering this problem is that NW 31 follows directly from X 17. Can DRSTR3 49-50 and FF 374 take place after X 17?
I didn't find a character involved in DRSTR3 and X in this period. For FF and X, we have Wolverine :

WOLVERINE
X 16
XFOR 18
SECDEF 1-FB
SECDEF 1-3
BT 1-4
FF 374
W2 66-FB
W2 66-68
X 17-19
W:IF
TER 9-10
AF 121
IC 1

We'll have to check if FF 374 can be moved for Wolverine.

Another curiosity : X 25 is listed twice in Mr. Fantastic and the Thing's chronologies, one time before IC, one time after IC. Considering that for several X-Men, X 20-25 is after IC, I believe the first occurence is a mistake and must be removed.

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Re: Spider-Man in FF 372-378

Post by Michael » Mon May 30, 2011 3:35 pm

michel wrote: I didn't find a character involved in DRSTR3 and X in this period. For FF and X, we have Wolverine :

WOLVERINE
X 16
XFOR 18
SECDEF 1-FB
SECDEF 1-3
BT 1-4
FF 374
W2 66-FB
W2 66-68
X 17-19
W:IF
TER 9-10
AF 121
IC 1

We'll have to check if FF 374 can be moved for Wolverine.
Not just FF 374- SECDEF 1 takes place after DRSTR3 50. I'm not sure if the NW 34 reference can stand.
michel wrote: Another curiosity : X 25 is listed twice in Mr. Fantastic and the Thing's chronologies, one time before IC, one time after IC. Considering that for several X-Men, X 20-25 is after IC, I believe the first occurence is a mistake and must be removed.
This was discussed in Archive 54:
Posted: 16 Dec 2004 04:40 pm Post subject: FF 374 / X 25
By DCW3

Mr. Fantastic and the Thing make a brief cameo on pg. 6 of X 25, an homage to their appearance in UX 135. A footnote mentions that "these events take place before FF #374" --even though FF 374 was published seven months earlier. This footnote is necessary because the Thing gets his face slashed by Wolverine's adamantium claws in FF 374 and has scars that remain for some time afterwards, but his face is drawn as unscarred in X 25. Obviously the footnote was the editor's last-minute attempt to address an art error by Andy Kubert.

The problem is that X 25 is the issue where Wolverine gets his adamantium ripped out by Magneto, and would thus seem to have to happen after FF 374. How can we explain this contradiction?

There is one break in X 25 where we might be able to slot Wolverine's appearance in FF 374: between pages 11 and 12. After Xavier decides to launch an attack on Magneto, a text box says that "the X-Men disperse and prepare for their mission." The scene then cuts to an indeterminate amount of time later as Scott, Jean and Hank look over the Professor's plan. Reading the story, it seems like a short amount of time has passed, but it could easily be expanded to several hours, if we assume that Xavier took a while to put his plan together.

In fact, in FF 374, Doctor Strange contacts Wolverine while he is ("casually") exercising in the Danger Room. It is easy enough to rationalize: Wolverine, feeling antsy and eager for some action, goes off to train while Xavier formulates his attack plan, and is happy to agree when Strange approaches him with a short mission.

So, Wolverine's chronology would then read:

UX 304
X 25 (pg. 8-pg. 11)
FF 374
X 25 (pg. 12+)
[W2 75] - not yet in MCP

Because of the difference in publication dates between these two issues and the number of characters involved, this change would probably require the rejiggering of several characters' chronologies. The first priority would probably be finding a place to slot Mr. Fantastic and the Thing's appearance in X 25. I don't have any of the FF issues immediately preceding 374; does one of the FF experts want to take a crack at it? It just needs to be a time when they are both in Four Freedoms Plaza, and things are calm enough for Ben to take a bubble bath. If it helps, their appearance is an immediate reaction to Magneto's shock wave, which Cyclops says occurred at 11:55 PM EST.

As an aside, Wolverine's chronology lists his appearance in FF 374 as occurring after SECDEF 1, while Dr. Strange's chronology has the order reversed. I know pointing this sort of thing out is occasionally frowned upon, but could someone double-check this? There's no time travel or anything going on, at least not in those two issues. I noticed this because my theory here means that Wolverine's appearances in SECDEF 1-3, with his adamantium claws, almost certainly have to occur before FF 374.

* * *

Posted: 17 Dec 2004 08:28 am
By SKleefeld
Director

DCW3 wrote:
>>>
Because of the difference in publication dates between these two issues and the number of characters involved, this change would probably require the rejiggering of several characters' chronologies. The first priority would probably be finding a place to slot Mr. Fantastic and the Thing's appearance in X 25. I don't have any of the FF issues immediately preceding 374; does one of the FF experts want to take a crack at it? It just needs to be a time when they are both in Four Freedoms Plaza, and things are calm enough for Ben to take a bubble bath. If it helps, their appearance is an immediate reaction to Magneto's shock wave, which Cyclops says occurred at 11:55 PM EST.
<<<

I think the bigger issue (WRT Reed and Ben appearing in FFP) is how Four Freedoms Plaza is depicted. They've just finished up the Infinity War (in #370) and the top several floors of the building have been blown up. Do we see the exterior of Four Freedoms Plaza as a point of reference, or is it just noted in the captions? If we see the exterior, we'd have to push this prior to the Infinity War -- around FF #365. If we just see interior shots, we could go as late FF #371.

* * *

Posted: 17 Dec 2004 01:47 pm
By DCW3

We don't see an exterior shot...and in fact, now that I look at it, the captions don't specifically say they're in Four Freedoms Plaza either, just "Manhattan." Ben is in the bathtub and Reed is in a room surrounded by gadgets, so the assumption is that it's their headquarters.

How much before FF 374 does FF 371 take place? It starts to strain credibility if the second half of X 25 (page 12 onward) takes place more than about a day or so after the magnetic pulse, to which Reed and Ben respond on page 6, and FF 374 has to occur in the interim.

* * *

Posted: 17 Dec 2004 03:19 pm
By SKleefeld
Director

I won't be able to get to my books to verify this until Sunday evening at the earliest, but to the best of my recollection...

#370 is the end of the Infinity War, and the book ends with the FF at Four Freedoms Plaza, trying to clean up, and with Susan getting into her pissy phase.

#371 starts an undetermined amount of time later. FFP is still in disrepair, and Johnny heads over ESU. He's attacked by Devos and Paibok, who he defeats by nova blasting a fair portion of campus. I believe he returns to FFP at the end of the story.

#372-373 must occur in fairly short order after #371. Basically, Torch goes on the run from the law, and JJJameson hires Silver Sable to track him down. Spider-Man becomes involved at some point and...

#374 starts with Spidey asking Doc Strange for help. He convinces "The Secret Defenders" (formerly, "The New Fantastic Four" ) to help track down Johnny. They do, to which Johnny replies by finally signaling the rest of the FF... they all get into a big brawl, Wolverine slashes Ben's face, and the FF are mysteriously transported away leaving the Wolvie, et. al. to do whatever. To the best of my knowledge, we never see what actually takes place with the Secret Defenders immediately afterwards; the story follows the FF, and never returns back to that thread.

With that said, I would guess no more than a couple of days pass between #371 and #374. Again, I don't have the issues handy to actually look this up, but I recall that when Johnny is finally found by the FF in #374, he's only got some ever-so-slight beard growth from being on the run for a day or two. Dialogue and/or captions could corroborate or disprove that, once I get a chance to do this without relying solely on memory.

I suppose it's possible for X 25 to occur sometime as late as in the middle of FF 374, but I would imagine Ben would not lounge in a bubble bath if he and his team are supposed to be helping look for Johnny. The storyline, ultimately, follows Johnny very closely, though, and does allow plenty of free time for Reed and Ben if we absolutely need to push X 25 as late as FF 374.

* * *

Posted: 17 Dec 2004 07:48 pm
By RLG

Here's what I've got:

DAY 1 - Daytime; begins just before lunch.
FF 371 - Reed, Ben, and Ms. Marvel are captured by Aron the Watcher while searching for Alicia in the Artic Circle. Johnny sets fire to ESU while battling Paibok, Devos, and Lyja.

FF 372 - Johnny surrenders to Code:Blue and is scheduled for arraignment "this afternoon (11p4)." When Pabok and Lyja attack, Johnny escapes from police custody and becomes a fugitive. Reed and company continue to be captives of Aron.

DAY 1 - Nighttime - rainy weather
FF 372 - Later, Spider-Man searches for Johnny and JJ Jameson hires Silver Sable and the Wild Pack to hunt down the Torch.

DAY 2 - Daytime
FF 373 - Dr. Doom learns of Aron's capture of Reed and company. "Pissy" Sue demands Matt Murdock settle the ESU issue. Under the Puppetmaster's control, the Molecule Man battles Aron.

DAY 2 - Nighttime
FF 373 - Later, Spidey, Silver Sable and the Wild Pack track down Johnny, but he escapes. Reed, Ben and Sharon escape as Dr. Doom defeats Aron.

DAY 2 - Shortly before midnight
X 25 - Reed and Ben appear shortly after returning from the Artic Circle.

DAY 3 - Nighttime - early hours of the new day
FF 374 (1 -3) - Spidey goes to Dr. Strange for help in capturing Johnny. Dr. Strange contacts Wolverine (in Danger Room), "smart" Hulk (in Reno, NV) and Ghost Rider (in Cypress Hill.)

FF 374 (4-22) - The team searches for Johnny. They locate him and battle the "new" FF. Wolverine slashes Ben's face. The team is teleported away from the battlesite.

- RLG

* * *
Speaking of Ben's face- I just flipped out my copy of NW 34- Ben's face is clearly unscarred. Unless that's an art error, NW 34 takes place before FF 374.

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Re: Spider-Man in FF 372-378

Post by michel » Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:01 am

I took the time to look at all the FF apperances between FF 370 and 381, and what a mess ! The FF editor really did poorly his job... Currently in the MCP, we have this :

FF 370 end Infinity War
FF@ 25 + A@ 21 Citizen Kang
H2 399 Reed and Johnny meet Rick Jones
MTW 1-3 don't have this issues, Sue, Ben and Johnny in
S-H2 52 Reed + Thing not scarred
FFU 3 Thing not scarred, IW in new costume, Torch mentions the Feds may search him for burning ESU, a footnote places this issue before FF #375
NW 33-34 + @ 3 Thing not scarred, Torch
CAGE 12 Thing not scarred
FF 371 Alicia's been kidnapped by Aron, before Reed, Ben and Sharon leave for the Artic Circle, Sue shows Reed her new costume ; Torch burns ESU
FF 372 Torch surrenders, then becomes a fugitive
FF 373 Torch hunted by Silver Pack
X 25 Reed and not scarred Ben cameo, first occurence
FF 374 Reed, Ben and Sharon back, FF vs Secret Defenders, Thing scarred, FF teleported by Uatu
FF 375 Thing gets helmet, FF vs. Doom, team teleported back to HQ, Nathaniel Richards is there
S-H2 55 team cameo, Thing with helmet, IW in new costume, young Franklin
FFU 1 Thing not scarred, IW in new costume
FFU 1/2 Team BTS, leaves just after FFU 1
Q 50 Thing not scarred and Torch cameo
FFU 2 Thing not scarred, IW in new costume, young Franklin
DLOK2 26 Thing with helmet cameo
IC 1-6 and tie-ins : Thing with helmet, IW in new costume, Reed present
X 25 Reed and not scarred Ben cameo, second occurence
FF 376 Nathaniel Richards explains his story, Torch surrenders, Nathaniel leaves with young Franklin, adult Franklin comes back
FF@ 26 tests on adult Franklin, Torch BTS
M/CP 165/4 Reed only
FF 377-378 Torch is freed, Ben finds Sharon as She-Hulk
FF 379-381 Dr. Doom story, Mr. Fantastic disappears

The biggest problem is with FFU 1-3 that have an unscarred Thing and the Invisible Woman in her new costume. That's not possible : Reed discovers Sue's new costume at the beginning of FF 371, just before he leaves in a hurry with unscarred Ben for the Arctic Circle to rescue Alicia. When they come back in FF 374, Johnny is a fugitive, the team immediately goes look for him, they find him and the Secret Defenders, Wolverine scars the Thing. There's no gap to have stories with an unscarred Thing and Sue in her new costume.

Gaps in the FF issues :
1) FF 370 ends with Ben and the Puppet Master telling Reed Alicia's been kidnapped. FF 371 opens with the three men in Alicia's appartment. Hard to think everything from FF@ 25 to CAGE 12 happens without anybody looking for Alicia. The gap should happen just before the Puppet Masters meets Ben, so in between FF 370 (20:3) and (20:4)
2) FF 375 ends with Agatha saying that Nathaniel Richards is there. FF 376 opens with Nathaniel telling his story to the same people. Could everybody have wait from S-H2 55 to IC 6 to hear what Nathaniel has to say ?
3) FF 376 ends with adult Franklin just arriving, and FF 377 obviously continues directly from here. FF@ 26 can't be in between FF 376 and 377, fortunately there's a gap available, "a few days later" in between FF 377 (12:3) and (12:4). Johnny is in jail during this gap.

I looked for a gap for IC to happen, the only one I could find is in between pages 20 and 21 of FF 378. Ben is scarred and Johnny is free during IC. Johnny is available either between the end of FF 375 and during FF 376, either in this proposed gap. In FF 378 (21), Ben finds the mutated Sharon, that leads directly into the Doom story and the apparent death of Reed. In FF 376, Nathaniel telling his story is interrupted by the arrival of Matt Murdock and Mrs. Yakaki, that leads to the Torch surrendering just after that. I can't see how IC could happen here. FF 378 (21) begins with a "Sometime later". The Thing thinks of skipping meeting Sandman in a bar, but it's not necessary that Sandman invited him while they were fighting Paibok. And Doom could have keep Sharon prisoner some days before freeing her in her Thing form, or Sharon could have been too shamed to go immediately for the FF.

So the biggest problem is with FFU 1-3. The MCP has FFU 3 before FF 371, before Sue has her new costume and the Torch burned ESU. It's Sue's costume that has been choosen to be the mistake, not Ben being not scarred. Why not do the same for FFU 1 and 2 ?

For X 25, for the X-Men it's after IC. For the moment, let's place it in the FF 378 gap and say Ben unscarred is an art error.

Here is my first try for a corrected chronology :

FF 370 (1-20:3) end Infinity War
FF@ 25 + A@ 21 Citizen Kang
H2 399 Reed and Johnny meet Rick Jones
MTW 1-3 don't have this issues, Sue, Ben and Johnny in
S-H2 52 Reed + Thing not scarred
FFU 1 Thing not scarred, IW in new costume
FFU 1/2 Team BTS, leaves just after FFU 1
Q 50 Thing not scarred and Torch cameo
FFU 2 Thing not scarred, IW in new costume, young Franklin
FFU 3 Thing not scarred, IW in new costume, Torch mentions the Feds may search him for burning ESU, a footnote places this issue before FF #375
NW 33-34 + @ 3 Thing not scarred, Torch
CAGE 12 Thing not scarred
FF 370 (20:4-22) Puppet Master tells Ben Alicia's been kidnapped
FF 371 Before Reed, Ben and Sharon leave for the Artic Circle, Sue shows Reed her new costume ; Torch burns ESU
FF 372 Torch surrenders, then becomes a fugitive
FF 373 Torch hunted by Silver Pack
FF 374 Reed, Ben and Sharon back, FF vs Secret Defenders, Thing scarred, FF teleported by Uatu
FF 375 Thing gets helmet, FF vs. Doom, team teleported back to HQ, Nathaniel Richards is there
S-H2 55 team cameo, Thing with helmet, IW in new costume, Torch present, young Franklin
FF 376 Nathaniel Richards explains his story, Torch surrenders, Nathaniel leaves with young Franklin, adult Franklin comes back
FF 377 (1-12:3) Sue and Reed discover adult Franklin
FF@ 26 tests on adult Franklin, Torch BTS
M/CP 165/4 Reed only
FF 377 (12:4-22) - FF 378 (1-20) Torch is freed
DLOK2 26 Thing with helmet cameo
IC 1-6 and tie-ins : Thing with helmet, IW in new costume, Reed present
X 25 Reed and not scarred Ben cameo
FF 378 (21-22) Ben finds Sharon as She-Hulk
FF 379-381 Dr. Doom story, Mr. Fantastic disappears

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Re: Spider-Man in FF 372-378

Post by Michael » Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:29 am

michel wrote:I took the time to look at all the FF apperances between FF 370 and 381, and what a mess ! The FF editor really did poorly his job...
Even worse, the main writer on the FF at the time was Tom DeFalco, who was Marvel's Editor-in-Chief at the time.
michel wrote: 2) FF 375 ends with Agatha saying that Nathaniel Richards is there. FF 376 opens with Nathaniel telling his story to the same people. Could everybody have wait from S-H2 55 to IC 6 to hear what Nathaniel has to say ?
Quite possibly, Nathaniel could have been about to tell his story to these people, the FF got interrupted by an emergency, and FF 376 was the first relatively relaxed moment for Nathaniel to tell his story.
michel wrote:Q 50 Thing not scarred and Torch cameo
FFU 2 Thing not scarred, IW in new costume, young Franklin
FFU 3 Thing not scarred, IW in new costume, Torch mentions the Feds may search him for burning ESU, a footnote places this issue before FF #375
NW 33-34 + @ 3 Thing not scarred, Torch
I have issues with placing Q 50 so far before NW 33-34. In Q 44, Quagmire is abducted by Darkling. In NW 33-34, Darkling uses a mind-controlled Quagmire against the heroes. I suppose it's possible that Darkling had Quagmire under his control for weeks or months before using him against the heroes, but still...
(BTW, why do Asylum II and Darkling have separate entries? They're the same character.)
A lot of characters appear in Q 50, and I'd hesitate to move it that far back without doing more detailed chronological analysis. Ben's being unscarred might very well have been an art error, as we've already established that the editors were asleep at the wheel.

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Re: Spider-Man in FF 372-378

Post by michel » Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:55 am

Michael wrote:2) FF 375 ends with Agatha saying that Nathaniel Richards is there. FF 376 opens with Nathaniel telling his story to the same people. Could everybody have wait from S-H2 55 to IC 6 to hear what Nathaniel has to say ?
Quite possibly, Nathaniel could have been about to tell his story to these people, the FF got interrupted by an emergency, and FF 376 was the first relatively relaxed moment for Nathaniel to tell his story.
At the beginning of FFU 1, they are invited in Wakanda by the Black Panther. At the beginning of FFU 2, they attend a public press conference with the mayor. Doesn't seem so urgent to me. A small gap can be shoe-horned here, and I've let S-H2 55 here, a cameo where the team with a young Franklin (before the end of FF 376) and a helmeted Ben (after the end of FF 375) learns in a newspaper the She-Hulk isn't dead. But whole stories before Nathaniel can speak doesn't seem natural.

Michael wrote:I have issues with placing Q 50 so far before NW 33-34. In Q 44, Quagmire is abducted by Darkling. In NW 33-34, Darkling uses a mind-controlled Quagmire against the heroes. I suppose it's possible that Darkling had Quagmire under his control for weeks or months before using him against the heroes, but still...
(BTW, why do Asylum II and Darkling have separate entries? They're the same character.)
A lot of characters appear in Q 50, and I'd hesitate to move it that far back without doing more detailed chronological analysis. Ben's being unscarred might very well have been an art error, as we've already established that the editors were asleep at the wheel.
I didn't touch the MCP placement for Q 50, in between FFU 1 and 2, but you're right. Thunderstrike appears in Q 47 after Maximum Carnage, and the Avengers appear in NW 33-34 before Maximum Carnage, so Q 50 should be after NW 33-34, and still before FF 370 part 2

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Re: Spider-Man in FF 372-378

Post by Peter Fabricius » Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:41 pm

I just checked Mys-Tech Wars, Ben is clearly unscarred, and Reed appears in #1-3
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Re: Spider-Man in FF 372-378

Post by Michael » Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:47 pm

I did some checking- FF 378 is before IC 1-6 in Daredevil's chronology but after FF 378 in the Avengers' chronologies. So we definitely have a problem. Keep in mind that FF 378 has to take place after TS 1 for Thunderstrike.
It gets worse- FF 378 is listed as the next appearance of the Black Knight and the Vision after Q 54, during the Starblast crossover. The problem is that Q 54 takes place after the Bloodties crossover for the Black Widow but before Bloodties for the Black Knight and the Vision. And even more bizarrely, FF 385-386 were part of the Starblast crossover!

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Re: Spider-Man in FF 372-378

Post by michel » Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:58 pm

Peter Fabricius wrote:I just checked Mys-Tech Wars, Ben is clearly unscarred, and Reed appears in #1-3
So the current placement is good. Thank Peter

There could be another problem : at the end of FFU 2, Black Bolt abolishes monarchy for the Inhumans and the former Royal Family goes back to Earth. Yet, in FF 374-375, Black Bolt is still king, and the Thing meets the Inhumans in FF 375 just after he's been scarred. So either Ben unscarred in FFU 2 is a mistake, and we can put FFU 2 after FF 375, maybe in the FF 378 gap, either we decide the Royal Family changed its mind and Black Bolt decided to become king again in FF 374-375 after FFU 2, maybe for a short period while a new inhuman government is formed.

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Re: Spider-Man in FF 372-378

Post by Michael » Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:57 pm

OK, I think I found another problem that's screwing up the FF's chronology of this period. In Q 54, part of the Starblast crossover, which includes FF 385-386, Meggan and Rachel both appear. The problem is that in XCAL 68, Meggan falls into a catatonic state and remains in one until Brian is rescued in XCAL 75, but in that issue Rachel is lost in the timestream. We worked our way around this problem by placing Q 54 during XCAL 66, but XCAL 70 takes place before UX 302. This is impossible since X 25 takes place after UX 302 and Reed appears in X 25. (He disappeared in FF 379-381.) The simplest explanation is that Q 54 takes place after XCAL 70 (and X 25) and that Meggan briefly came out of her catatonic state before suffering a relapse.

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Re: Spider-Man in FF 372-378

Post by metaldragon » Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:36 pm

For Thing's unscarred look when he should have scars, would it possible to suggest he was trying out some kind of concealer (orange Spackle)?
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Re: Spider-Man in FF 372-378

Post by michel » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:51 am

metaldragon wrote:For Thing's unscarred look when he should have scars, would it possible to suggest he was trying out some kind of concealer (orange Spackle)?
I don't think so, the Thing wearing a helmet concealing his face was kind of a plot point, to emphasize he wanted to be left alone and not inspire pity

I'm still working on the period between IW and IC, and there are some inconsistencies in the placement of NW 32-34 + @3 with the Hulk issues.

Roughly, for Dr. Strange the MCP has :

IW - Return of the Defenders - T 456 - NW arc - DRSTR3 48-50 - H2 399 - MTW 1-4 - SECDEF 1-5 ~ DRSTR3 51-53 - Q 50 - SECDEF 6-9 - IC

This will be hard to change because in DRSTR3 48-50 Strange is largely depowered, and his chronology must respect that.

Now for the Avengers, for example the Black Knight :

IW - Citizen Kang - T 447 - MTW 1-4 - T 458 - H2 403-404 - NW arc - Maximum Carnage - IC

The NW arc is before H2 399 for Dr. Strange, and after H2 403-404 for the Avengers

Hulk doesn't appear in the NW arc, but appears in DRSTR3 50 before H2 395 and MTW 1-4

Angel, Spider-Man and some FF appear in the NW arc after MTW 1-4

To summarize, a lot of characters have the NW arc closer to the beginning of IC than to the end of IW, after MTW 1-4 or H2 403-404. It's the opposite for Dr. Strange, but he's depowered in DRSTR3 48-50, so his chronology would be hard to change. What do you think ?

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