Sequencing monthly and quarterly Timely issues
Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:46 am
I have submitted a thread to the Who Watches The Watchers forum (which discusses the Official Handbooks, etc) suggesting there is something wrong with the claimed sequencing of stories in the Timely parts of online bibliographies in Marvel Universe for Captain America and Sub-Mariner, originally taken from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe. This sequencing is also reflected in the Timely parts of the recent Index of Captain America, and in a more general way in the character histories in the Marvel Mystery Handbook.
I am repeating my conclusion here because it is relevant to the Project. If anyone wants to see the detailed evidence I direct them to the forum within comixfan.net/forums, in a thread called 'Sequencing monthly and quarterly Timely issues'. I have added some extra stuff here which directly refer to MCP entries.
The heart of the problem lies in deciding which monthly cover-dated comics came out at the same time as issues with quarterly season cover dates like Spring. The clues are contained in adverts in comics that indicate which other comics are currently on sale. Significantly some of these adverts also contain actual publication dates.
I have compared ads in comics from 1940-41 (as reprinted in Marvel Masterworks), and I have come to the conclusion that the linkage (with some exceptions 1 month either side) is:-
Spring quartelies are with June cover-dated monthlies.
Summer quartelies are with September cover-dated monthlies.
Fall quartelies are with December cover-dated monthlies.
Winter quartelies are with March cover-dated monthlies.
The analysis is complicated by the fact (supported by ads for monthly comics with actual publication dates) that the issues were actually published 3 months before their cover dates. So the full story is:-
Spring quartelies are with June cover-dated monthlies, all published in March.
Summer quartelies are with September cover-dated monthlies, all published in June.
Fall quartelies are with December cover-dated monthlies, all published in September.
Winter quartelies are with March cover-dated monthlies, all published in December.
The online Captain America and Sub-Mariner bibliographies list all the Timely comics by their supposed publication months, and this is taken to reflect when the events 'actually happened'. Continued stories are bundled together in one month. Stories that are considered as told out of sequence are listed in the month they are supposed to happen. But with those exceptions excluded, there is a definite date-link between monthly and quarterly issues, and it doesn't match what I described above.
These online bibliographies use the 3-month backdating of monthly issues. But they effectively don't move the quarterly titles back the same 3 months. Since 3 months is also the gap between quarters, they get a similar but different linkage:-
Spring issues with March cover-date monthlies, all published in December.
Summer issues with June cover-date monthlies, all published in March.
Fall with September cover-date monthlies, all published in June.
Winter issues with December cover-date monthlies, all published in September.
The CA Index and the MMH character histories aren't so interested in the dates, but they follow the same linkage scheme.
I found that those publication dates for quarterlies clashed with the dates in adverts for them. And the quarterly/monthly link didn't tie in with the adverts for other comics on sale at the same time.
Moving the quarterly issues by 3 months has some beneficial effects:-
Mystic Comics v2#1 is monthly cover-dated October 1944, backdated to July. Mystic Comics v2#2 is quarterly dated Fall 1944. If Fall were backdated to June then #2 would have come out before #1. Changing to September publication avoids this problem.
In Sub-Mariner Comics #1 (Spring 1941) the Atlantean emperor is killed (or put in a coma) and Namor takes over. If Spring quarterlies were equated to March cover-dated monthlies, then it would have been published in the same month as MMC#17. But the emperor appears in MMC#19 cover-dated May. Moving Spring quarterlies to June cover-dates puts SMC#1 with MMC#20. It can then be read between MMC#19 where the emperor is alive, and MMC#20 where he's dead. Also in SMC#1 SM 'borrows' some radium from New York. In MMC#20 he returns it.
The HT+SM story in MMC#17 (March 1941) refers to the Atlantean fleet as heavily damaged, which happened in the SM story in HT#3 (Winter) (which itself followed directly from the HT story in the same issue). This works better if Winter quarterlies are published alongside March ones than if HT#3 happened 3 months earlier.
There are probably other connections I haven't noticed yet.
I notice that MCP have entered some of the Timely stories into the chronology, basically lagging a bit behind the Masterworks reprints. The evidence is somewhat schizophrenic. Some characters seem to be following my scheme, but others match the OHOTMU/Indexes one.
MCP has Fiery Mask's appearance in HT#2 (Fall 1940) after all his last entry in Daring Mystery Comics in #6 (cover date September 1940), as per my scheme. OHOTMU's dating would put HT#2 in the same month as DMC#6, and MMH then describes HT#2's story as occurring before DMC#6's. MCP's choice here seems to follow from a forum thread by Adamant in February 2008.
For Sub-Mariner MCP has SMC#1 as necessary between MMC#19 and #20, fitting my scheme.
For Human Torch MCP has the HT story in HT#2 (Fall 1940) between the HT stories in MMC#13 (November 1940) and #14 (December 1940). My scheme has HT#2 published in the same month as MMC#14. The HT story in HT#3 (Winter) is placed here too. I think it's only a coincidence that this is where the OHOTMU system would place it. I suspect MCP's decision here was to make Toro's training in HT#3 follow immediately after his discovery by HT in HT#2. I personally would question the necessity for this. Toro's training would take a long time. Be that as it may, the HT story in HT#4 (Spring 1941) is back in line between MMC#19 (May 1941) and #20 (June 1941).
MCP has the SM story in HT#2 (Fall 1940) between the SM stories in MMC#14 (December 1940) and #15 (January 1941). The slightly different placings of the HT and SM stories in their sequences are both equally reasonable timewise, and are influenced by continued stories in MMC. The SM story in HT#3 follows directly from the HT story in that issue, and so has to be placed here because MCP has the HT stories in HT#2 and #3 together. But as I said earlier, the HT story in HT#3 needn't be so close to the one in HT#2, and the SM story makes more sense nearer MMC#17.
MCP hasn't taken Angel in MMC far enough to determine how his monthly stories will interrelate with those in the quarterly SMC, etc.
Captain America is the odd one out here.
For instance OHOTMU and the CA Index have:-
All Winners Comics #1 (Summer 1941) between Captain America Comics #4 (cover date June 1941) and #5 (August 1941)
AWC#2 (Fall 1941) between CAC#6 (September 1941) and #7 (October 1941)
AWC#3 (Winter 1941/2) between CAC#9 (December 1941) and #10 (January 1942)
which fit their system relating Summer to June cover dates, etc.
MCP follows the OHOTMU pattern for CA, except that AWC#2 is moved slightly to between CAC#7 and #8.
In MCP SM and HT have AWC#1 between SMC#2 and HT#5a, and the association between these 3 quarterlies continues in step (though not always in the same order). Unfortunately MCP hasn't entered MMC issues that far, so I can't tell how they would actually relate it to the quarterlies. But extrapolating from the earlier SM and HT chronology I would expect the SM and HT stories in AWC#1 to be around MMC#23 (cover date September), which would clash with the CA story in AWC#1 being near CAC#4 (June). And so on for all the later issues.
This clash would also extend to the 'actual' dates the stories 'happen' on. This would be true whether you consider 'actual' dates are the cover dates or the 3-month before publication dates, as long as you are consistent.
I don't see any reason why CA should be treated differently from the other characters.
Rob F Johnson
I am repeating my conclusion here because it is relevant to the Project. If anyone wants to see the detailed evidence I direct them to the forum within comixfan.net/forums, in a thread called 'Sequencing monthly and quarterly Timely issues'. I have added some extra stuff here which directly refer to MCP entries.
The heart of the problem lies in deciding which monthly cover-dated comics came out at the same time as issues with quarterly season cover dates like Spring. The clues are contained in adverts in comics that indicate which other comics are currently on sale. Significantly some of these adverts also contain actual publication dates.
I have compared ads in comics from 1940-41 (as reprinted in Marvel Masterworks), and I have come to the conclusion that the linkage (with some exceptions 1 month either side) is:-
Spring quartelies are with June cover-dated monthlies.
Summer quartelies are with September cover-dated monthlies.
Fall quartelies are with December cover-dated monthlies.
Winter quartelies are with March cover-dated monthlies.
The analysis is complicated by the fact (supported by ads for monthly comics with actual publication dates) that the issues were actually published 3 months before their cover dates. So the full story is:-
Spring quartelies are with June cover-dated monthlies, all published in March.
Summer quartelies are with September cover-dated monthlies, all published in June.
Fall quartelies are with December cover-dated monthlies, all published in September.
Winter quartelies are with March cover-dated monthlies, all published in December.
The online Captain America and Sub-Mariner bibliographies list all the Timely comics by their supposed publication months, and this is taken to reflect when the events 'actually happened'. Continued stories are bundled together in one month. Stories that are considered as told out of sequence are listed in the month they are supposed to happen. But with those exceptions excluded, there is a definite date-link between monthly and quarterly issues, and it doesn't match what I described above.
These online bibliographies use the 3-month backdating of monthly issues. But they effectively don't move the quarterly titles back the same 3 months. Since 3 months is also the gap between quarters, they get a similar but different linkage:-
Spring issues with March cover-date monthlies, all published in December.
Summer issues with June cover-date monthlies, all published in March.
Fall with September cover-date monthlies, all published in June.
Winter issues with December cover-date monthlies, all published in September.
The CA Index and the MMH character histories aren't so interested in the dates, but they follow the same linkage scheme.
I found that those publication dates for quarterlies clashed with the dates in adverts for them. And the quarterly/monthly link didn't tie in with the adverts for other comics on sale at the same time.
Moving the quarterly issues by 3 months has some beneficial effects:-
Mystic Comics v2#1 is monthly cover-dated October 1944, backdated to July. Mystic Comics v2#2 is quarterly dated Fall 1944. If Fall were backdated to June then #2 would have come out before #1. Changing to September publication avoids this problem.
In Sub-Mariner Comics #1 (Spring 1941) the Atlantean emperor is killed (or put in a coma) and Namor takes over. If Spring quarterlies were equated to March cover-dated monthlies, then it would have been published in the same month as MMC#17. But the emperor appears in MMC#19 cover-dated May. Moving Spring quarterlies to June cover-dates puts SMC#1 with MMC#20. It can then be read between MMC#19 where the emperor is alive, and MMC#20 where he's dead. Also in SMC#1 SM 'borrows' some radium from New York. In MMC#20 he returns it.
The HT+SM story in MMC#17 (March 1941) refers to the Atlantean fleet as heavily damaged, which happened in the SM story in HT#3 (Winter) (which itself followed directly from the HT story in the same issue). This works better if Winter quarterlies are published alongside March ones than if HT#3 happened 3 months earlier.
There are probably other connections I haven't noticed yet.
I notice that MCP have entered some of the Timely stories into the chronology, basically lagging a bit behind the Masterworks reprints. The evidence is somewhat schizophrenic. Some characters seem to be following my scheme, but others match the OHOTMU/Indexes one.
MCP has Fiery Mask's appearance in HT#2 (Fall 1940) after all his last entry in Daring Mystery Comics in #6 (cover date September 1940), as per my scheme. OHOTMU's dating would put HT#2 in the same month as DMC#6, and MMH then describes HT#2's story as occurring before DMC#6's. MCP's choice here seems to follow from a forum thread by Adamant in February 2008.
For Sub-Mariner MCP has SMC#1 as necessary between MMC#19 and #20, fitting my scheme.
For Human Torch MCP has the HT story in HT#2 (Fall 1940) between the HT stories in MMC#13 (November 1940) and #14 (December 1940). My scheme has HT#2 published in the same month as MMC#14. The HT story in HT#3 (Winter) is placed here too. I think it's only a coincidence that this is where the OHOTMU system would place it. I suspect MCP's decision here was to make Toro's training in HT#3 follow immediately after his discovery by HT in HT#2. I personally would question the necessity for this. Toro's training would take a long time. Be that as it may, the HT story in HT#4 (Spring 1941) is back in line between MMC#19 (May 1941) and #20 (June 1941).
MCP has the SM story in HT#2 (Fall 1940) between the SM stories in MMC#14 (December 1940) and #15 (January 1941). The slightly different placings of the HT and SM stories in their sequences are both equally reasonable timewise, and are influenced by continued stories in MMC. The SM story in HT#3 follows directly from the HT story in that issue, and so has to be placed here because MCP has the HT stories in HT#2 and #3 together. But as I said earlier, the HT story in HT#3 needn't be so close to the one in HT#2, and the SM story makes more sense nearer MMC#17.
MCP hasn't taken Angel in MMC far enough to determine how his monthly stories will interrelate with those in the quarterly SMC, etc.
Captain America is the odd one out here.
For instance OHOTMU and the CA Index have:-
All Winners Comics #1 (Summer 1941) between Captain America Comics #4 (cover date June 1941) and #5 (August 1941)
AWC#2 (Fall 1941) between CAC#6 (September 1941) and #7 (October 1941)
AWC#3 (Winter 1941/2) between CAC#9 (December 1941) and #10 (January 1942)
which fit their system relating Summer to June cover dates, etc.
MCP follows the OHOTMU pattern for CA, except that AWC#2 is moved slightly to between CAC#7 and #8.
In MCP SM and HT have AWC#1 between SMC#2 and HT#5a, and the association between these 3 quarterlies continues in step (though not always in the same order). Unfortunately MCP hasn't entered MMC issues that far, so I can't tell how they would actually relate it to the quarterlies. But extrapolating from the earlier SM and HT chronology I would expect the SM and HT stories in AWC#1 to be around MMC#23 (cover date September), which would clash with the CA story in AWC#1 being near CAC#4 (June). And so on for all the later issues.
This clash would also extend to the 'actual' dates the stories 'happen' on. This would be true whether you consider 'actual' dates are the cover dates or the 3-month before publication dates, as long as you are consistent.
I don't see any reason why CA should be treated differently from the other characters.
Rob F Johnson