Absolute dating of Timely comics

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robfj
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Absolute dating of Timely comics

Post by robfj »

In the thread 'Sequencing monthly and quarterly Timely issues', both here and in Who Watches The Watchers forum, I used adverts in Golden Age Masterworks reprints quoting publication dates of Timely comics, plus the more usual 'on sale now' ads, to support the 3 month backdating of real publication dates from cover dates for monthly-dated issues that is used in the online bibliographies that originally appeared in some OHOTMU issues. But I also used the same type of ads to argue for a 3 month adjustment in the bibliographies' publication dates for issues with quarterly cover dates.

I gave some examples of how my amended quarterly publication dates made sense for some character-chronology links between monthly and quarterly titles. And I ended by showing that my system seamlessly brought together some references to Pearl Harbor and subsequent events.

That last example also demonstrated that Pearl Harbor and the related events showed up in the comics 2 months after they happened. Or in this case sometimes 3 months after the fact, due to the quarterly schedule of some titles.

I have written a new thread 'Absolute dating of Timely comics' for Who Watches The Watchers (within comixfan.net/forums) where I have shown that there are other topical references in early Timely comics. And they generally follow the rule of appearing in comics published 2 months after the events, or as close to 2 months as a quarterly comic can get. I won't repeat that evidence here.




The online bibliographies don't just organise character appearances by publication month. They also use that publication month as the 'real' month in which the events in the stories happen. Witness the deliberate movement of Marvel Mystery Comics #31 to Dec 1941 because it has 2 stories that specifically occur in that month. For a similar reason a continued story from several monthly issues is bunched up into 1 month. And stories which modern Marvel, or Timely itself, considered to happen out of sequence are placed in the months they 'really' happened in.

The 2 largest bibliographies available for Golden Age characters are those for Captain America and Sub-Mariner. They both basically follow the 3-month-ahead rule for monthly issues (but of course disagree with the dating of quarterlies I proposed in my earlier thread).

I have previously said that the SM history in the Marvel Mystery Handbook follows the sequence of stories in his bibliography (without including them all). But I now note that the history also includes a certain amount of dating, just mentioning years. It is noticeable that it specifies a transition from 1939 to 1940 with MMC#6 (cover date Apr, publication date Jan 40), and quotes 1941 for MMC#18 (Apr->Jan 41) (after SMC#1 in that year, which by my rules is 3 months too early). It also has the same stories as the bibliography leading up to the formation of the Invaders at the end of Dec 41. Thus SM's MMH history uses the same dating system as his bibliography. I believe the MMH history of the Human Torch fits the same dating system (he doesn't have a bibliography).

Cap's career started too late for him to be included in MMH. His recent Index nearly completely agrees with the bibliography sequence, but mostly doesn't indicate dates. Except for the chronology (situated after the entry for the modern CA#109) given for his early days, expanded from the origin in CAC#1. However this violently disagrees with the the bibliography dates. The bibliography moves the Cap stories in CAC#1, excluding the origin, back from cover date Mar 41 to Dec 40. The origin (of Cap not of Steve Rogers) then extends back from there to early 1940. The Index on the other hand starts Cap's origin in Fall 40, and has the other CAC#1 stories well after Mar, in late Spring or possibly early Summer 41.

There have been other datings for Cap's origin. CA#255 and Adventures of CA ran it from late 1940 to Fall 41. The recent Marvels Project extended it from late 39 to late 41. So I'll back away quietly from the subject.

But the bibliography and Index do agree on one thing, that the last issue of CAC before Cap gets frozen is #48 Jul 1945, which the bibliography backdates to Apr. This ties in with the the accepted date for Cap and Bucky's final clash with Zemo as 18th Apr 45 (first established in What If #4). (Strangely the bibliography has the clash in May.)

I'll just say that it would make a consistent history easier if Cap's dating aligned with everyone else's, perhaps only after his first few issues.




I would like to go further than just noting that it takes 2 months to get a topical reference into an issue. I propose a general 2 month backdating from publication date to 'real' date for all Timely comics. This would be the basis from which to start. On top of that we can apply variations such as combining continued stories together.

Of course this would affect the placement of some modern Marvel WWII stories with specific dates. But then so does the bibliographies' change from cover date to publication date.

For instance one immediate consequence would be that the last Steve Rogers story in CAC would more naturally be #50, unless there is some other good reason for making #49 the start of William Naslund's run.



Rob F Johnson
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Re: Absolute dating of Timely comics

Post by Leoparis »

There is a difficulty in dating these issues. For instance, as teh war was winding down in Europe, writers started to discontinue Nazi foes and shifted over to Japanese enemies.
So I'd look at the internal evidence as well, i.e. what is in the comics?

I did that for Patriot here, assigning Marvel Mystery Comics #63 where he fights a Japanese spy ring to after VE Day, even though the issue (dated June) came out in March.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5943&p=34892&hilit= ... ica#p34892

Now, for Cap, looking at covers
#46 April 1945 vs German soldiers
#47 June 1945 vs Nazi V-5 headed to New York (very late in the war, this might even be considered a reference to the fatal Zemo mission)
#48 July 1945 vs gangsters in Times Square (likely after VE day)
#49 Aug 45 defending US airforce gasoline reserves from gangsters (last wartime reference on a cover though this could be after the war)

Now, the stories that I don't have, I'm using the GCD for reference. Is there a more complete index?
#46 No direct reference to the war in the Cap stories but money is donated to the war effort in the 1st story
The Human Torch story is titled the Five traitors from Berlin, suggesting the end of war with Germany

#47 Cap fights common criminals (at odds with the cover)
Human Torch also
So I'd assign these stories to Naslund on the fictional conceit that a cover was drawn to account for a rumored or planned mission to Zemo's base but no story came out because of the result of the mission.

#48 stories in the US

#49 The first Cap story tells about a plan launched by Hitler in the waning days of WWII (unclear if Hitler's appearance is a flashback)
If not a flashback, I'd put it in April or May. If a flashback, it can occur later. I'd assign this to Naslund though a case could be made for Rogers depending on the actual content (from the summary I get that it occurs after the VE Day). Naslund was in Germany at the end of the war as Cap as depicted in The Twelve #1.

No topical reference in the other stories. These go to Naslund.

#50 Oct 45
In the 1st cap story he fights a Japanese spy ring. Evidence, though not compelling, that we're likely after VE Day, so Naslund.

#51 Dec 45
1st story: Cap & Bucky are on a Japanese island, they're told an atom bomb is going to end the war.
That would be the last wartime story.
robfj
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Re: Absolute dating of Timely comics

Post by robfj »

I agree with you about considering the internal evidence from the stories. That is how I came up with my absolute dating proposal, by finding references to current events in some issues. (I didn't include the evidence in the start of this thread. It exists in the thread on Who Watches The Watchers.)

I only looked at the years leading up to Dec 1941, where most of the Timely issues have been reprinted already. But I think the 1945 CAC issues you have mentioned here also fall neatly into my pattern.

#49 Aug 45 which my scheme would redate as Mar 45. This claims correctly to be in the dying days of the war in Europe. I don't interpret the GCD summary as indicating it's after VE Day. I think the imposter soldiers are sent to the US because they're wounded, not because the war's over.

End of the war in Europe and VE Day early May.

#50 Oct->May45. CA is fighting Japanese.

#51 Dec->Jul45. CA, still fighting Japanese, is told that the US will soon be able to end the war with the atom bomb. Although the Manhattan Project was secret, the idea of an atom bomb wasn't. I don't know how widespread speculation was that the US was building one. But this is obviously before the bombs are used on Japan in Aug45.

The atom bombs are dropped early Aug, and the war ends mid Aug.

#52 Jan46->Aug45. CA is no longer fighting in the war.

As I said, my backdating scheme tracks the close of the war accurately.

Steve Rogers going into suspended animation happens in mid Apr45, between #49 and #50. Naslund becoming CA and storming Berlin in Twelve #1 can obviously fit between this and VE Day.

Thus SR can be CA up to #49, and Naslund can take over from #50. (When I proposed earlier that SR's last issue be #50, I'd forgotten that CAC went briefly bimonthly at this time.)


I think it is possible to take a fundamentally different approach in constructing a timeline for Timely comics than the one used for modern Marvel.

In modern Marvel it's impossible to take dates in the comics seriously because we can't afford to have that many years in the characters' lives. So dates and seasons and references to current events, fashions etc are dismissed as 'topical'.

In very modern Marvel storylines regularly extend over many issues, usually occupying a short period. This is compensated for by multiple titles per character and very frequent guest appearances. But still we need several years of issues to get anywhere near filling up a year's time for a character.

The multiple regular titles and guest shots mean that satisfying internal continuity is much more important than relating to any 'topical' references, even innocuous ones like summer or Xmas.

However Timely comics don't have these problems. The period of time we allow them corresponds to the number of elapsed years of publication, and there were much fewer guest shots and continued stories. Even for the characters that appeared in multiple concurrent titles there aren't usually continuity issues.

So it is much easier to base a Timely timeline on the real life one. And there isn't usually any evidence to suggest anything else.
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