Hashing out X-Men post utopa-pre regenesis (now expanded)

[Frans]

Isn't X-Factor #215 happening after the Curse of the Mutants arc? There's some referral in the book to the whole vampires business. Carla Malcolm says to Madrox, and I quote "And the police already ruled on who the murderer was: a vampire during that entire business when those... those creatures were just everywhere". That should indicate that all issues after 215 have to be placed also after CutM.

If you agree, we have one more reason to place ACC after Fear Itself, apart from editorial and the book itself.

[Jason Doty]

Frans, I'm with you about finding the most appropriate place for this series. I've been trying it several ways. I'm trying to accommodate everyone's point of view (and the larger part of the Marvel U). I've got the MCP showing this series this series early in Caps chronology, We've got Somebody's issue with Dr. Doom and the FF, Steve using his Cap uniform, Colossus not being Juggernauty, Marvel's editorial intent, and the series itself spinning out of a of back up early.

Can anyone give me a least harm scenario and a consensus? I'm coming up empty.

[Chris McCarver]

There's an interview from someone at Marvel from a year or so ago that says not to put much stock in the costumes worn during A:CC, since it was so drawn out and so much else happened between Fall 2010 and Winter 2012.

Found the interview you mentioned (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page ... e&id=26639), quoting the pertinent bit:

As for the setting and role of the book in the larger Marvel Universe, Brevoort said, "There's a point we've been making in every single conversation we've had publicly about the project: 'Children's Crusade' is set 'right now' in the Marvel Universe. It is the post-Siege, Heroic Age Marvel Universe...HOWEVER because we began work on this book about two years ago, we had to take the best educated guess we could as to where certain elements shake out, and over the course of two years some things are in a slightly different place now." The major issues of change were different costumes for Tony Stark and Steve Rogers, but Brevoort promised that by the end of nine issues an explanation would be made for these changes, and they would be reconciled in the story just as the story would create waves in other modern Marvel books. "We though it would be better to get the books out, and this is the price you pay."

Pardon if I've missed discussion... has any thought been given to setting this during Bucky Barnes' incarceration in Russia? That'd place it pre-Fear Itself (solving the Colossus/Juggernaut conundrum) and give Steve an excuse to throw on the old uniform "just for this one mission."

[Frans]

Frans, I'm with you about finding the most appropriate place for this series. I've been trying it several ways. I'm trying to accommodate everyone's point of view (and the larger part of the Marvel U). I've got the MCP showing this series this series early in Caps chronology, We've got Somebody's issue with Dr. Doom and the FF, Steve using his Cap uniform, Colossus not being Juggernauty, Marvel's editorial intent, and the series itself spinning out of a of back up early.

Can anyone give me a least harm scenario and a consensus? I'm coming up empty.

"the series itself spinning out of a of back up early"; UXM #526/2
Indeed here Magneto finds out he has grandchildren, but the X-Men are rebuilding Utopia after Second Coming. It's not stated that Magneto immediately left to look for Speed and Wiccan; he's even warned by Cyclops and Wolverine not to. For these reasons it's not necessary that this is followed up instantly by ACC.

"Steve using his Cap uniform, Colossus not being Juggernauty"
As stated before it's 9 issues over a span of 2 years and editorial says not to think heavy on the costumes. I think we should definitely neglect this.

I'm not a frequent reader of FF and Avengers, but couldn't we place as follows:
"New Avengers and Avengers Annuals"
Despite the note that the Annuals take place before Fear Itself and then also before ACC, I think Wonder Man's behavior is too erratic. In ACC he helps the Avengers with Wanda, in the Annuals he destroys the Mansion and nearly kills them... Can't we place the Annuals after Avengers Children's Crusade (the first part), taking into account that Thor has returned already and Avengers Tower rebuilt. Or do we have a Vision problem then? One of Paul Bourcier's posts also says he has the Annuals after FI.

"Somebody's issue with Dr. Doom and the FF"
Can't we place ACC before FF #1, because FF is one looong story and Tom Brevoort says it's before.

"X-Factor issues"
X-Factor #215 happens after Curse of the Mutants. Then we can place them story per story until X-Factor #225, where Rictor has his powers back, which has to be place after ACC.

Do you think this will work?

[Jason Doty]

Frans, does the current move fix the problems you suggested?

[Frans]

I'm not sure, I'm not much of an Avengers and/or FF reader. It solves some problems, but not all. Is it solvable anyways?

Fact, it's stated in the recap pages of the Avengers Annuals that the story is supposed to happen before Fear Itself. Editorial states that ACC has to happen after Fear Itself. If you follow that, then immediately the strange situation with Wonder Man appears. So my suggestion is not to follow up both suggestions. I would say, place the Annuals after Fear Itself and after ACC. As Paul Bourcier mentions.

Fact, I'm a little lost on the Doom problems. What I do know is that FF 1-15 (and maybe issues after that) are one long story with Doom involved. So ACC should happen before or after. Doom dies in that storyline, so I would say before FF #1.

But hey, I'm not an expert on Doom, FF and Avengers chronologies. There's definitely someone else who knows more...

[Col_Fury]

I know there has to be a break somewhere in FF #1-15 because Dr. Doom appears as a member of the Future Foundation over in X-Men. Those X-Men appearances have to happen after FF #1 and before FF #15. So there's that, at least.

Also, there's another placement clue in Children's Crusade. Just in case someone hasn't read it yet:

Spoiler:

Stature dies!!!

So given that, Children's Crusade has to happen at least after Stature's last appearance. Was it Chaos War? How does that affect things?
.

[Michael]

IIRC, Chaos War WAS Stature's last appearance, and unfortunately that doesn't help us much, since Chaos War takes place before Johnny's "death" in FF 587.

[Jason Doty]

That just means Chaos War has to happen before this. I'll adjust.

[Chris McCarver]

Cassie's most recent published appearance, not withstanding her appearances in A:CC, was IAAA 5, wherein she appears in both the second and third stories. Not sure if these are supposed to be backdated stories though...

[Paul Bourcier]

My notes on IAAA 5/2 and 5/3:

I AM AN AVENGER #5/2
One day. This story must occur after Ant-Man was recruited by Rogers in SECA 1-FB (14:3-14:6) and before SECA 1 (1-12), given that this appears to be his first gathering with his new teammates. Avengers Mansion appears to be rebuilt with only a little damage left unrepaired; I theorize that this story occurs after the mansion was sold to Cage in NA2 1 (1-7) but before he and his team moved in in NA2 1 (8-24) – none of the people who are strictly New Avengers are here, and a couple of the Young Avengers are present. This story may occur before New Avengers are seen in the mansion in ASM 644. Members of the Avengers main team (Bucky Cap, Iron Man, Logan, Clint Barton as Hawkeye, Spider-Woman), the Secret Avengers (Beast, Steve Rogers in his Super-Soldier costume), the Young Avengers (Stature, Vision), and the Avengers Academy staff (Quicksilver, Justice) gather socially at Avengers Mansion. An apprehensive Ant-Man silently arrives and observes the gathering while ant-size. Pietro finds him and tells him everyone has detected his presence. Quicksilver tells O’Grady that he is an Avenger now and belongs with the others. The Avengers welcome Eric. Green trees in New York.

I AM AN AVENGER #5/3
One day. Since the Young Avengers are stifled by the formality of Avengers Mansion, it’s likely this story occurs after NA2 1 (1-7), and it probably occurs before ASM 644, when New Avengers are seen in the building. The Young Avengers decide to take a break from training in Avengers Mansion, but when Thor arrives, they decide to resume their training. Green trees in New York.

[Frans]

Hi Jason,

I think you're focussing too much on ACC now, by moving it all around to fit it in. Five Lights, The Future is a Four letter Word, Quarantine... it all happens before Curse of the Mutants. Can't we move everything back as it was, before you did the re-shuffling, all because to fit all inconsistencies in ACC?

If we stick with ACC after Fear Itself (as it was intended) and we put the Avengers Annuals in the place Paul Bourcier mentions. We have also make sure we put ACC before FF #1. Then we're fine, aren't we? Or am I missing something?

[Jason Doty]

No Frans.
Doom joins the FF after Children's Crusade. That happens right after the death of the Human Torch. He appears in the last issue of Fear Itself having already joined. "Three" the Death of the Torch is a small window between Daken and X-23 issues which spin out of Wolverine goes to hell.

The Avengers Annuals have to take place before Fear itself and from the description by (Spider-Man) they take place before Children's Crusade because nobody knows the Scarlet Witch is back.

Why do we have to move those stories up? Those three arcs stay together for the reasons you explained earlier. If we have to, I'll adjust. Are the Lights in Curse of the Mutants? I can't remember right off the top of my head or is that story mentioned in the issues you want me to move?

I think were pretty close to nailing Children's Crusade down.

[Paul Bourcier]

Jason Doty wrote:

The Avengers Annuals have to take place before Fear itself and from the description by (Spider-Man) they take place before Children's Crusade because nobody knows the Scarlet Witch is back.

Jason, would you post that description by Spidey? I was under the impression Wonder Man finally attacked the Avengers in the annuals after the encounter with Wanda in ACC.

[Jason Doty]

Spider-Man Wrote in Children's Crusade thread

Tom Brevoort said that Children's Crusade takes place before Doom joins the Future Foundation in FF #1. So that would mean that it takes place before X-Men 16-19 too.

As for the Avengers/New Avengers annuals, they specify on the recap page that they take place before Fear Itself, and thus before Children's Crusade too. I know it doesn't make a lot of sense considering Simon's behavior, but it wouldn't the other way around either, since characters in the annual still treat Wanda's disappearance like some unexplained mystery.