Hashing out X-Men post utopa-pre regenesis (now expanded)

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

Moderators: Col_Fury, michel, Arthur, Somebody, StrayLamb

Locked
Frans
Big Bad
Big Bad
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 1:18 pm
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands

Re: Hashing out X-Men post utopa-pre regenesis

Post by Frans »

Another small "update"

HERC
Herc v1 #4 (p. 13-20), #5 and #6 are one continuous story. There is one gap in the story and that's the passing out of Hercules, this is before #4 (page 13). The only visible link to Fear Itself after that is the fight of Null and Angrir with Thor in New York. The placing for these issues now is a bit dubious. Herc #5 and #6 simultaneous with Fear Itself #5 (p. 6-22) can't be right, because there Angrir is wounded by Thor in nearly the first panel on page 6 or 7. It's better if this particular scene in Herc is simultaneous with Fear Itself #5 (p. 1-2). My proposal is:

FEAR ITSELF v1 #4 (p.21-22)
HERC v1 #4 (p.13-20)
HERC v1 #5 (p. 1-10)
FEAR ITSELF v1 #5 (p.1-2) / HERC v1 #5 (p. 11-14)
HERC v1 #5 (p. 15-20)
HERC v1 #6


YOUTH IN REVOLT and MONKEY KING
Fear Itself The Monkey King v1 #1 has no real clues for Fear Itself continuity, so it can be placed easily, as long as it's after the Iron Man 2.0 issues. The placing you did is fine.
For Youth in Revolt the only factor to Fear Itself is Black Widow at the body of Bucky Barnes. Black Widow is with him in the early pages of Fear Itself #4, with Iron Man and Nick Fury. The placing here could work, because Black Widow could have been with Bucky before that particular scene; it's plausible
Frans
Big Bad
Big Bad
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 1:18 pm
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands

Re: Hashing out X-Men post utopa-pre regenesis

Post by Frans »

Pfff....and another attempt to make the tie-ins work. :evil:

BLACK PANTHER
Black Panther Man Without Fear #521, #522 and #523 is one continuous story. No other clue then hammers falling, and Hate Monger travels among the hammer that's intended for the Thing. Placing is fine, it works.

HEROES FOR HIRE
As far as Heroes for Hire is concerned, there are no gaps in this tie-in. In #10 there are inconsistencies in the chronology. . One panel shows Bucky Barnes and Falcon fighting together and the next panel the X-Men fighting Juggernaut, the third panel shows Iron Man fighting Grey Gargoyle. This never can happen at the same time. Bucky's scene and the Iron Man scene can, but the X-Men are involved much later... The only reason to proper solve this, would be to treat the scenes all as flashbacks and not as "in the mean time"? Then these issues should be placed somewhere after Uncanny X-Men #541. Does this work?

UNCANNY X-MEN
Uncanny X-Men #540 happens before Fear Itself #4, where the X-Men battle the Juggernaut. This FI X-Men battle with Juggernaut happens in Uncanny X-Men #541, in New Mutants #29, in Heroes for Hire #10 and in other places. There could be a gap between #541 and #542. No gap between #542 and #543. In #543 the Serpent summons Kuurth/Juggernaut, which happens in Fear Itself #6 (p. 9).

NEW MUTANTS
New Mutants #29 (p. 6-9) happens simultaneous with the fight scene in Uncanny X-Men #541. New Mutants #30 and #31 happen right after each other. There is space between #31 and #32. New Mutants #32 has to happen after Uncanny X-Men #543, because Hela wants to join Asgard in the end battle (before Fear Itself #7) and Magik is already back in her prison in the X-brig. New Mutants #30 also contains scenes of other battles that cannot be. Scenes with X-Men fighting Juggernaut (same as UXM 541) and Bucky Barnes fighting Sin, same discrepancy as in Heroes for Hire. Is probably down to the same writers of these series? Also treat them as flashbacks is the answer...

FEAR ITSELF THE DEEP
Fear Itself The Deep is also difficult to place, because Namor makes appearances in the Fear Itself Uncanny X-Men issues. Namor appears in #540 and in #543. Namor is confident and his strong self in #540. He also tells Emma Frost he has gathered his allies. Therefore this cannot be placed in the gap after the first pages of Fear Itself The Deep #1. Furthermore the Deep issues #1 through #3 are one continuous battle with the Generals of Attuma, apart from the Flashback in the beginning of #1, which we already have placed. For these reasons Uncanny X-Men #540 has to happen after Fear Itself The Deep #1, #2 and #3. Namor's appearance in Uncanny X-Men #543 has to happen after Fear Itself The Deep #4.

Place this part before HULK v1 #37 (p.1-12)
FEAR ITSELF: THE DEEP v1 #1 (p.7-20)
FEAR ITSELF: THE DEEP v1 #2
FEAR ITSELF: THE DEEP v1 #3
UNCANNY X-MEN v1 #540
NEW MUTANTS v3 #29 (p. 1-5)
UNCANNY X-MEN v1 #541 (p.1-5)
FEAR ITSELF v1 #4 (p.3-4) / UNCANNY X-MEN v1 #541 (p. 6-22) / NEW MUTANTS v3 #29 (p. 6-9)
NEW MUTANTS v3 #29 (p. 10-20)
NEW MUTANTS v3 #30
NEW MUTANTS v3 #31


Place this part before FEAR ITSELF v1 #6 (p.9)
UNCANNY X-MEN v1 #542
FEAR ITSELF: THE DEEP v1 #4
UNCANNY X-MEN v1 #543
NEW MUTANTS v3 #32
JephYork
Comic Pro
Comic Pro
Posts: 4657
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:10 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Hashing out X-Men post utopa-pre regenesis

Post by JephYork »

Is there anywhere there has to be a break?
Yes. Because Kitty is in her spacesuit in early issues of Wolverine v4, and out of it in later issues. And IIRC Wolverine appears in the Uncanny X-Men story where she's freed from the suit.

-Jeph!
Frans
Big Bad
Big Bad
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 1:18 pm
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands

Re: Hashing out X-Men post utopa-pre regenesis

Post by Frans »

Hi Jason, this is probably my final comment on FEAR ITSELF. Could you please see if we didn't forget some points or views. Anyone else is also welcome to put in their efforts, of course. I can't see straight anymore, because of this chronology nightmare. :willynilly:

AVENGERS v4
This is a tricky one. IMO Avengers #17 does not happen at the same time as Fear Itself #5 (p. 1-3). This Avengers issue has the Avengers (Ms Marvel, Protector, Hawkeye, Spider-Woman) at the ruins of Avengers Tower. Sin/Skadi appears and these Avengers fight her. Then the New Avengers come to help (Wolverine, Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, Iron Fist, Daredevil, Spider-Man, Mockingbird). Captain America is nowhere to be seen. Another note on this is that Sin says in Fear Itself #4 (p. 18) "Do I really get to kill Captain America twice?". Avengers #17 is more likely to be placed after Fear Itself #4 (p. 5-8). First Avengers battle Sin (without Captain America, after Avengers Tower), then Captain America lands in Manhattan, then Captain America battles Sin with the Avengers.

FEAR ITSELF v1 #4 (p.5-8)
AVENGERS v4 #17-FB (p.1-2, 4-20)
FEAR ITSELF v1 #4 (p.9-14)


NEW AVENGERS #16
We shouldn't forget to place the Daredevil scene with Luke and Jessica (where he received the ID-card) somewhere down the line. Time indication is three weeks later.

SECRET AVENGERS #15
I always assumed that this issue takes place after Black Widow returned from Paris/Marseille. Don't know any hard evidence, but I think her timeline flows better this way... We can place it immediately after the Black Widow one-shot.

INVINCIBLE IRON MAN
Invincible Iron Man #507 happens after Fear Itself #5, because on page 3 Thor has fallen; Captain America, Spider-Man and Protector? run towards him. The running towards scene is a bit sketchy, because at the end of Fear Itself #5 Cap America has sent Spider-Man away, so how he can be running towards Thor is dubious. Let's take it down as artistic impression. Anyways, as follows. Between #507 and #508 there are no gaps.

FEAR ITSELF v1 #5 (p.6-22)
INVINCIBLE IRON MAN v1 #507
INVINCIBLE IRON MAN v1 #508 (p.1-19)


JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY
In Journey into Mystery #626 last pages Dark Asgard hoovers already over Newark. This happens in Fear Itself #5 p. 11. There aren't that many gaps in Journey into Mystery #624-626. And we know that #624 has to be placed immediately after Odin has sent Thor back to Earth. Luckily I've found one that fits, the only indication is a few hours, but maybe we could think this lasts litte longer. It's in #626, starting page 14. Basically it comes down to this.

GHOST RIDER v7 #3 (p.1-18)
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY v1 #624
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY v1 #625
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY v1 #626 (p. 1-13)


And:
FEAR ITSELF v1 #5 (p.6-22)
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY v1 #626 (p. 14-20)


GHOST RIDER VS JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY
I always assumed that Journey into Mystery #627 happened after Ghost Rider #4, but it doesn't matter that much, I think. There are no clues which issue should happen first.

FEAR ITSELF HULK VS DRACULA
The Fear Itself Hulk vs Dracula issues have to be placed closer to Fear Itself #7 and not #6. It's one continuous story with no gaps, as far as I could see. In Fear Itself #7 (p. 5) Hulk/Nul is seen fighting Dracula, which happens in Fear Itself Hulk vs Dracula #3. I'm proposing the following:

FEAR ITSELF: HULK VS. DRACULA v1 #1
FEAR ITSELF: HULK VS. DRACULA v1 #2
FEAR ITSELF v1 #7 (p.1-30)/JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY v1 #628-629 / FEAR ITSELF: HULK VS. DRACULA v1 #3


FEAR ITSELF HOME FRONT (OTHER)
As for all those other Fear Itself Home Front issues other than the Speedball stories and the Chosen stories, it doesn't matter that much where to place them. I suppose they can be better placed near the Fear Itself issue which came out at the same time. But this also works fine.

FEAR ITSELF BLACK WIDOW
This one-shot is better placed around Fear Itself #5 in stead of #6. At the end of #6 Black Widow is again with the Avengers. It's best to place it:

FEAR ITSELF v1 #5 (p.4-5) / INVINCIBLE IRON MAN v1 #506 (p.1-2)
FEAR ITSELF: THE BLACK WIDOW v1 #1


UNCANNY X-MEN #541
There is a double post for UNCANNY X-MEN v1 #541 (10-22). This line before UNCANNY X-MEN v1 #542 has to be deleted.

FEAR ITSELF #7, #7.1, #7.2, #7.3 and AVENGERS ACADEMY #20 + JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #630
These issues have a lot of overlap and flashbacks. I'll try to keep your order as consistent as possible, Jason :wink:

Avengers Academy #20 can be split into parts matching Fear Itself #7:
(p. 1-3) Friday: Right after the battle when Giant-Man comes too late.
(p. 4-8:4) Saturday: Speedball returns to the Academy and Veil talks to Hazmat
(p. 8:5-14) Sunday: Academy rounds up villains and Academy teachers try to convince Veil not to leave
(p. 15-17) Monday: Speedball and Justice leave Academy, as well as Veil
(p. 18-20) Tuesday: Veil at Briggs Chemicals and Avengers Academy in Los Angeles

Fear Itself #7 can be split into parts matching the same days:
(p. 1-30) Friday: Battle with Serpent
(p. 31-33) Saturday: Funeral Thor
(p. 34:1) Sunday: Funeral Bucky
(p. 34:2-34:3) Monday: Iron Man returns Asgardian weapons and receives Cap's shield from Splitlip
(p. 34:4-34:5) Tuesday: Captain America receives shield back from Iron Man
(p. 35-36) Wednesday: Avengers promise to rebuild Asgard
(p. 37) Thursday: Broxton residents and subsequent days for epilogues

Fear Itself #7.1
This issue deals with Bucky and his funeral.
Flashbacks
(p. 4-5) Black Widow and Nick Fury notice there's a thread of life in Bucky
(p. 9-10) Black Widow and Nick Fury use an LMD to keep Bucky's alive a secret
(p. 11-12) Black Widow agrees to using the Infinity Formula to keep Bucky alive
(p. 13) Black Widow's at Bucky's bed when he awakes

Flashbacks should be placed as follows:
FEAR ITSELF v1 #7.1-FB (p. 4-5, 9-10) after FEAR ITSELF v1 #3 (p.17-22) or even a bit later, but at least before FEAR ITSELF #4 (page 5).
FEAR ITSELF v1 #7.1-FB (p. 11-12) after FEAR ITSELF v1 #4 (page 8)
FEAR ITSELF v1 #7.1-FB (p. 13) just before FEAR ITSELF: THE BLACK WIDOW v1 #1


(p. 1-3, 6-8 and 14-17) is about Captain America finding out from Fury that Bucky is alive and he meets Bucky, who asks him to keep his secret
(p. 18-20) is after Bucky's funeral where Bucky rides away with Black Widow.

Fear Itself #7.2
This issue deals with Thor's funeral. The issue can be broken down into two parts.
(p. 1-10) Odin preparing Thor's body for his funeral
(p. 11-20) Thor's funeral and Odin closing Asgard to be alone with this brother

Fear Itself #7.3
This is down into two parts. Iron Man quarreling with Odin and Odin bringing the people from Paris back to life. And Iron Man visiting Grey Gargoyle in his holding cell.
Yesterday: (p. 3-4,6-7,9-10,15-20:2)
Today: (p. 1-2,5,8,11-14,20:3-20:4)

All above making the following chronology for the last part of Fear Itself:

AVENGERS ACADEMY v1 #20 (p.1-3)
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY v1 #630
FEAR ITSELF v1 #7.2-FB (p. 1-10)
FEAR ITSELF v1 #7.3-FB (p. 3-4,6-7,9-10,15-20:2)
FEAR ITSELF v1 #7 (p.31-33) / FEAR ITSELF v1 7.2 (p.11-20)
AVENGERS ACADEMY v1 #20 (p. 4-8:4)
FEAR ITSELF v1 #7.1 (p. 1-3,6-8,14-17)
AVENGERS ACADEMY v1 #20 (p. 8:5-14)
FEAR ITSELF v1 #7 (p. 34:1)
FEAR ITSELF v1 #7.1 (p. 18-20)
FEAR ITSELF v1 #7.3 (p. 1-2,5,8,11-14,20:3-20:4)
FEAR ITSELF v1 #7 (p. 34:2-34:3)
AVENGERS ACADEMY v1 #20 (p. 15-20)
FEAR ITSELF v1 #7 (p. 34:4-34:5)
FEAR ITSELF: YOUTH IN REVOLT v1 #6 (p.16-17)
FEAR ITSELF v1 #7 (p.35-36)
FEAR ITSELF v1 #7 (p.37-38)
FEAR ITSELF: YOUTH IN REVOLT v1 #6 (p.18-20)
FEAR ITSELF v1 #7 (p.39-42)
FEAR ITSELF v1 #7 (p.43-46)
FEAR ITSELF v1 #7 (p.47-50)
FEAR ITSELF v1 #7 (p.51-54)
FEAR ITSELF: THE HOME FRONT v1 #7/3 (J. JONAH JAMESON)
Jason Doty
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 9619
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:24 pm
Location: Milton, Florida

Re: Hashing out X-Men post utopa-pre regenesis

Post by Jason Doty »

Frans, Doesn't Hulk have to free himself of his entity before the final fight. If not wouldn't he have been called back for the final battle? I'm gonna start your corrections right now.

Jeph, would you put the break between pages of the recovery at the end of "Wolverine vs. the X-Men" in Wolverine, or completely after he kills Mystique?
Jason Doty
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 9619
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:24 pm
Location: Milton, Florida

Re: Hashing out X-Men post utopa-pre regenesis

Post by Jason Doty »

Russ, Jeph or any of the other moderators. I've added a "Please remove" on some of my posts that were a heads up on what I changed that really don't have to do with chronological issues. I was hoping weeding these out will make it easier for others to follow the important points.

Also is there any way to split my first post at "Fear Itself" down, to right under it, with me still having the ability to edit? I'm unsure about how much space I have as I add things in.

Thanks to Frans and Paul for all their hard work on Fear Itself, it's been a monster.
Frans
Big Bad
Big Bad
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 1:18 pm
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands

Re: Hashing out X-Men post utopa-pre regenesis

Post by Frans »

Jason Doty wrote:Frans, Doesn't Hulk have to free himself of his entity before the final fight. If not wouldn't he have been called back for the final battle? I'm gonna start your corrections right now.
Actually that was bugging me also. But in Fear Itself #7 it's clearly Nul fighting Dracula. He holds a hammer and he has the lining on his body. In Fear Itself Hulk vs Dracula #3 he crumbles the hammer and is his old green self. I don't know why he didn't follow up on the Serpent's call, it's not explained for as far as I know.
Frans
Big Bad
Big Bad
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 1:18 pm
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands

Re: Hashing out X-Men post utopa-pre regenesis

Post by Frans »

Jason Doty wrote:Jeph, would you put the break between pages of the recovery at the end of "Wolverine vs. the X-Men" in Wolverine, or completely after he kills Mystique?
I would say after he kills Mystique is a good break.
User avatar
Russ Chappell
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5667
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:40 pm
Location: Tuscaloosa, AL
Contact:

Re: Hashing out X-Men post utopa-pre regenesis

Post by Russ Chappell »

Jason Doty wrote:Russ, Jeph or any of the other moderators. Is there any way to split my first post at "Fear Itself" down, to right under it, with me still having the ability to edit? I'm unsure about how much space I have as I add things in.
You are not near the limit. Your first post is fine.
I can't promise you that things will improve, if we make changes;
I can promise you that they won't improve, if we don't.

Image
Adventures in the Marvelous Zone! A Girl's View of the Marvel Universe
JephYork
Comic Pro
Comic Pro
Posts: 4657
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:10 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Hashing out X-Men post utopa-pre regenesis

Post by JephYork »

Frans wrote:
Jason Doty wrote:Jeph, would you put the break between pages of the recovery at the end of "Wolverine vs. the X-Men" in Wolverine, or completely after he kills Mystique?
I would say after he kills Mystique is a good break.
Agreed, between W4 #9-10 is the best spot for the break.

-Jeph!
Jason Doty
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 9619
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:24 pm
Location: Milton, Florida

Re: Hashing out X-Men post utopa-pre regenesis

Post by Jason Doty »

I just updated "Curse of the Mutants," Please let me know what you think about the intertwining of the issues.
Jason Doty
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 9619
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:24 pm
Location: Milton, Florida

Re: Hashing out X-Men post utopa-pre regenesis

Post by Jason Doty »

I added in X-23 and Namor: The First Mutant.

I placed the X-23 no.1-19, the final two issues take place after schism. The entire run of X-23 no.1-19 has to come between Wolverine goes to hell and Age of X, in order to have Gambit back, who was her traveling partner throughout those issues.

Namor started during Curse of the Mutants and had to end prior to Escape from the Negative Zone.
Jason Doty
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 9619
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:24 pm
Location: Milton, Florida

Re: Hashing out X-Men post utopa-pre regenesis

Post by Jason Doty »

I placed Daken: Dark Wolverine no.1-20 (I believe all of these issues must take place before "Fear Itself." Right before Daken moves to L.A, he stops by Avengers Tower which is standing. Before he leaves L.A he figures out Nefaria is in charge of the underworld. Nefaria is taken down by the Avengers which include Thor in Moon Knight no.12. Thor "dies" at the end of Fear itself. Anybody got any concerns about this placement. The final 3 issues take place after the return of the Human Torch and after Wolverine forms his school.
Lucifer
Henchman
Henchman
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:13 pm

Re: Hashing out X-Men post utopa-pre regenesis

Post by Lucifer »

There is a problem with the placement of Necrosha. Check this thread for details: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4602&hilit=necrosha. It involves Necrosha happening immediatly after Messiah War. In Messiah War Beast is present, but Beast leaves Utopia in UX 519. This caused both Messiah War and Necrosha to be placed between UX 517 and 518.
Lucifer
Henchman
Henchman
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:13 pm

Re: Hashing out X-Men post utopa-pre regenesis

Post by Lucifer »

I think a gap between UX 526-529 (Birth of Generation Hope) and UX 530-534 (Quarantaine) is awkward. In 529 we see the first signs of sickness, which is followed up on in Quarantaine. Also we see Fantomex, Kitty and Emma leaving Utopia in E.V.A. with Shaw. In Quarantaine they are still in E.V.A. and that storyline ends in 534 when Shaw is left in China without his memories.

I'd place UX 526-534 before Gen Hope 1-4.
Locked