H3 106-FB

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Russ Chappell
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H3 106-FB

Post by Russ Chappell » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:19 pm

H3 106 includes a flashback with the Champions intercepting the Hulk as he tries to take Jen Walters to the hospital.

Present with the Champions are Angel, Black Widow, Darkstar, Ghost Rider, Hercules & Iceman. The Champions are "at UCLA, about to be honored by the President for saving the world." Thoughts on placement?

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Re: H3 106-FB

Post by Jason Doty » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:59 am

Maybe the Giant-Size Hulk v2 #1 from 2006.

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Re: H3 106-FB

Post by wolframbane » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:28 am

Russ Chappell wrote:H3 106 includes a flashback with the Champions intercepting the Hulk as he tries to take Jen Walters to the hospital. Present with the Champions are Angel, Black Widow, Darkstar, Ghost Rider, Hercules & Iceman. The Champions are "at UCLA, about to be honored by the President for saving the world." Thoughts on placement?
This event retells events from Giant-Size Hulk #1 (2006).

For the Champions it occurs between Champions #16-17 (1977-1978), according to the Ghost Rider Index TPB.

For Hulk it occurs between Marvel Two-In-One #46 (1978) and Hulk Magazine #10 (1978), according to the Hulk Bibliography at:
http://marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Bibli ... -Hulk_2007

For Jennifer Walters, Jen says that she is "an attorney here in L.A.," placing it after her graduation from UCLA in Savage She-Hulk #25 (1982) flashback, but apparently before she became She-Hulk in Savage She-Hulk #1 (1980). Note that Jennifer is aware Bruce is the Hulk in this story, however in Savage She-Hulk #1, Jennifer had not seen Bruce since he left for Medical School and was unaware he was the Hulk. This would seem the indicate Giant-Size Hulk #1 was after Savage She-Hulk #1, but there was no indication Jen was yet the She-Hulk, and the Champions disbanded (according to Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #17, 1978 fb) before Jen became She-Hulk. Also note that according to She-Hulk #13 (2006) fb, it was revealed that Jen was "still in law school" circa Avengers Annual #7 (1977).

For the President, he is BTS and mentioned as President Clinton (although Hercules thinks it is the topical President Carter, the POTUS during the Champrions series run). Any guesses where his appearance goes?

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Re: H3 106-FB

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:32 am

The only thing I remember about Giant-Size Hulk v2 #1 is that it was published, so I have no idea if the Champions save the world in it.

BUT

The recent Ghost Rider Index entry for Champions #16 says that Angel, Black Widow, Darkstar, Ghost Rider, Hercules and Iceman appear in GSHulk #1, '06 between Champ #16-17. If this Hulk #106-FB takes place after that, the order would be:

CHAMP 16
GSH2 1
H2 106-FB
CHAMP 17

The Index says nothing about H2 106-FB, but the team roster lines up between H2 106-FB, GSHulk v2 #1 and Champ #16-17. Also, I guess the Champions wouldn't necessarily have had to have saved the world *in* GSHulk v2 #1, just at some point between Champions #1 and H2 106-FB... and the Presidnet is finally getting around to honoring the Champions in H2 106-FB (if they didn't save the world in GSHulk v2 #1).

Obviously, it would be nice if the Champions saved the world in GSHulk v2 #1. Did they?

Ack! Wolframbane beat me to it. :)
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Re: H3 106-FB

Post by wolframbane » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:47 am

The Champions saved the world from Doctor Doom's mind controlling gas in SVTU #14 (1977) and Champions #16 (1977). And it was President Carter in Champions #16... (probably an in-joke the Hercules could not remember if it was Clinton or Carter)

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Re: H3 106-FB

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:14 am

So you're saying that the H2 106-FB repeats information already given in GSHulk v2 #1? Is there any new information in H2 106-FB?

For some reason, I'm not too worried about Jen knowing Bruce is Hulk in GSHulk v2 #1 before she doesn't know that Bruce is Hulk in Savage She-Hulk #1. It's the kind of soft retcon that happens here and there from time to time.

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Re: H3 106-FB

Post by wolframbane » Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:34 am

Col_Fury wrote:So you're saying that the H2 106-FB repeats information already given in GSHulk v2 #1? Is there any new information in H2 106-FB?
The plot is that the Champions have arrived at UCLA to recieve a medal from President Clinton/Carter. There is a Hulk sighting so the Champions investigate. They find the Hulk and attack, but Hulk escapes carrying a car with Jennifer (who is having an appendicitis attack) and takes her to a hospital. The Champions later visit Jennifer who reprimands them for their actions.

H3 106 (9:1)-FB
The Champions arrive at UCLA. Same as GSH2 1 (1-3).

H3 106 (9:2-9:5)-FB
The Champions battle Hulk. Jennifer Walters is in car (BTS). Same as GSH2 1 (4-14).

H3 106 (10:1)-FB
Hulk flees the battle with the car holding Jennifer (BTS). Same as GSH2 1 (15-16:1).

H3 106 (10:2)-FB
Jennifer is depicted in car in severe pain. NEW SCENE.

H3 106 (10:2)-FB
Hulk takes Jennifer to a hospital. Same as GSH2 1 (16:2-16:7).

The only new scene is Jennifer in H3 106 (10:2)-FB, which occurs between GSH2 1 (1-16:1) and GSH2 1 (16:2-18).

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Re: H3 106-FB

Post by wolframbane » Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:39 am

Col_Fury wrote:When did the world find out that Bruce Banner is the Hulk?
In Tales to Astonish #77 (1966), Rick Jones thought Hulk was dead and told Colonel Talbot that Banner was the Hulk. Word probably got out sometime after that but I do not exactly when it became public knowledge.

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Re: H3 106-FB

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:29 am

wolframbane wrote:The only new scene is Jennifer in H3 106 (10:2)-FB, which occurs between GSH2 1 (1-16:1) and GSH2 1 (16:2-18).
Thanks!
wolframbane wrote:
Col_Fury wrote:When did the world find out that Bruce Banner is the Hulk?
In Tales to Astonish #77 (1966), Rick Jones thought Hulk was dead and told Colonel Talbot that Banner was the Hulk. Word probably got out sometime after that but I do not exactly when it became public knowledge.
That early? Wow. Well, Jen HAD to know Bruce was Hulk in Savage She-Hulk #1 then, didn't she? Does she actually say she didn't know in Savage She-Hulk #1?
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Re: H3 106-FB

Post by Russ Chappell » Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:34 am

Thanks, guys!

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Re: H3 106-FB

Post by Kevin W. » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:03 am

Col_Fury wrote:That early? Wow. Well, Jen HAD to know Bruce was Hulk in Savage She-Hulk #1 then, didn't she? Does she actually say she didn't know in Savage She-Hulk #1?
Bruce confesses to her that he's the Hulk in Savage She-Hulk #1.

Bruce: "Jen, I'm a wanted man! The police are after me! The army! Sometimes I think - the whole human race!"

Jen: "I - can't believe it! Not you! Not YOU! What- what have you done?

Bruce: "It's not what I've done! It's what I've become! I'll tell you the whole story - it began a few years ago! After leaving med school, I devoted myself to working on the awesome G-Bomb!"

Skip ahead after the short flashback to Hulk #1...

Jen: "You really mean it! You really are - the green-skinned monster! But how?"

So yeah, it's pretty hard to swallow that GSH2 1 occurred before that. I don't believe Hulk's identity was "public knowledge" to the masses at this point during this period, it was more "public knowledge for those in the know" (aka military, government, and superheroes).

Still, how to rectify H3 106/GSH2 1? I'm hoping to find a way to insert GSH2 #1/H3 106 inbetween the pages of Savage She-Hulk #1. Or to put back the early issues of Savage She-Hulk to circa 1977 (there's only a 3 year difference from 1977 to 1980, when those early issues of She-Hulk occurred).

In GSH2 1, Jen Walters tells the Champions in the hospital: "My name is Jennifer Walters. I'm Bruce Banner's cousin. I'm an attorney here in L.A. He was visiting me." She goes on to relate they were stuck in traffic when her appendix ruptured. It could be rationalized that doesn't warrant a transformation into the She-Hulk (it's early in her career and her transformations are in flux. Also, how does the She-Hulk's healing factor cure an appendix rupturing? It's a useless organ, the body with a healing factor would probably prefer to expel it...)

Ignoring real years (1977 vs. 1980) I would like to see GSH2 1 occur as it was written: after Jen knows that Bruce is the Hulk. I'd suggest inbetween Savage She-Hulk #5 and 6. Issue #5 brings an end to the initial story arc of the first five issues, and Issue #6 guest stars Iron Man (placing that in 1980). So maybe nothing happened between Issue #5 and 6 for "3 years" real Earth time (a few small months, Marvel time).

My other proposal would be to put GSH2 1 in the middle of Savage She-Hulk #1, but that's a lot messier...
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Re: H3 106-FB

Post by wolframbane » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:26 pm

Well it is possible that Jen knew that Bruce was the Hulk, but Bruce did not know that Jen knew he was the Hulk.

A simpler explanation would be that Jen simply learned that Bruce was the Hulk in GSH2 1 (or possibly before), but kept her knowledge of this secret from Bruce for her own reasons. When Bruce became the Hulk in GSH2 1, he would not necessarily have retained his memories of these events as Hulk when he later returned to Bruce, and thought that perhaps due to her medical condition that Jen would not remember him becoming the Hulk. Later when he met Jen again in Savage She-Hulk #1, he told that he was the Hulk (unaware she already knew) and Jen feigned ignorance of her knowledge.

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Re: H3 106-FB

Post by loki » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:32 pm

A big problem with placing the fb after Jen becomes the She-Hulk is that the Champions had long since split up. Also, I have little doubt that an appendix rupturing would trigger any stress-activated transformations, based on personal experience of the former. And we can't go with the Champions temporarily reforming. Though the flashback mentions the Champions were in UCLA to be honored, allowing for that to be a team reunion, we also have Hercules mentioning the Champions saved the world "last week" and identifying that as being when Doom took over the world with mind-control gas (with editorial box identifying it as Champions #16). Even without that, it can't work as being after Jen became the She-Hulk - we have an explicit scene where we see her and the Hulk meet for the first time since she got her powers, set after she joined the Avengers. The Hulk had Banner's brain by the time he and She-Hulk met, then he was exiled off dimension, and by the time he returned She-Hulk was stuck in her transformed state, etc, so the first time she could have been in Jen Walters form and he could have been in his best known green form again wasn't until around 2004, by which time Angel was Archangel and blue.

The only indicator that would suggest the story takes place later is Jen's dialogue that shows she knows Bruce is the Hulk. Without that, I don't think anyone would be in doubt as to the story taking place much earlier. And when the handbooks did the She-Hulk's entry, we queried what was said with editorial, who went with the solution that the scene where Jen confirms she knows Bruce is the Hulk didn't happen quite as depicted - basically, Jen didn't know.

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Re: H3 106-FB

Post by Kevin W. » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:45 pm

loki wrote: The only indicator that would suggest the story takes place later is Jen's dialogue that shows she knows Bruce is the Hulk. Without that, I don't think anyone would be in doubt as to the story taking place much earlier. And when the handbooks did the She-Hulk's entry, we queried what was said with editorial, who went with the solution that the scene where Jen confirms she knows Bruce is the Hulk didn't happen quite as depicted - basically, Jen didn't know.
So wait...Marvel editorial decided that in GSH2 1 that Jennifer somehow DID NOT know Bruce was the Hulk? Something like, the appendix rupturing made her have a hazy memory of Bruce transforming into the Hulk? Well, if that's what editorial went with...

One other problem: In Savage She-Hulk #1, Jen says to Bruce "I haven't heard from you since you quit Med School for Nuclear Physics!" AKA "since before Bruce became the Hulk"...but maybe Jen was having hazy memories then as well...
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Re: H3 106-FB

Post by loki » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:43 pm

Kevin W. wrote:
loki wrote: The only indicator that would suggest the story takes place later is Jen's dialogue that shows she knows Bruce is the Hulk. Without that, I don't think anyone would be in doubt as to the story taking place much earlier. And when the handbooks did the She-Hulk's entry, we queried what was said with editorial, who went with the solution that the scene where Jen confirms she knows Bruce is the Hulk didn't happen quite as depicted - basically, Jen didn't know.
So wait...Marvel editorial decided that in GSH2 1 that Jennifer somehow DID NOT know Bruce was the Hulk? Something like, the appendix rupturing made her have a hazy memory of Bruce transforming into the Hulk? Well, if that's what editorial went with...
Yes. The options were pretty much to either ignore that section of dialogue in GSH, ignore her dialogue in Savage She-Hulk #1, or assume that she was lying in Savage She-Hulk #1. Given the options, editorial opted to preserve the earlier version of events, and assume that between the appendicitis and whatever medication she was given in the hospital, Jen's memory of events was hazy to say the least. Not ideal, but there wasn't an option that let everything fit, so something was going to have to give.

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