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Doctor Strange chronology

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:42 am
by lettsmonster
I have a question about Doctor Strange's chronology in late 1993, early 1994. It seems that Doctor Strange's Sanctum Sanctorum was destroyed during the Siege of Darkness crossover in Doctor Strange Sorcerer Supreme #60. However, in Secret Defenders #11, we see Nova visit Doctor Strange's destroyed home which your chronology lists as an event that occurs before DSSS #60. Thank you for your time, M Bradley Letts.

Re: Doctor Strange chronology

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:52 am
by Col_Fury
It sounds like Secret Defenders #11 needs to be moved to after the Siege of Darkness crossover.

I'm unfamiliar with Dr. Strange's chronology around this area. Could the masked Strange character that first appears in Dr. Strange #61 have anything to do with the Secret Defenders placement?

For what it's worth, Secret Defenders #11 was published the month after Dr. Strange #60 (#61 is the last Dr. Strange Siege of Darkness crossover issue).

Re: Doctor Strange chronology

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:13 am
by Paul Bourcier
Lettsmonster is correct. SECDEF 11, which is a Starblast crossover, must occur after DRSTR3 61.

Re: Doctor Strange chronology

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:00 am
by lettsmonster
I believe the Secret Defenders #11 appearance occurs sometime between Doctor Strange 60 and 61, while Doctor Strange is still fighting in the Siege of Darkness. He appears to Nova in his astral form and seems very busy. But his astral form still shows his old non-masked costume, so this could not have been after Doctor Strange 61, which is where he first adopts this costume. Lettsmonster

Re: Doctor Strange chronology

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:35 am
by Paul Bourcier
That makes sense, and both SECDEF 11 and DRSTR3 61 were published the same month. Are there larger MU implications for having Starblast and Siege of Darkness occur at the same time? Does this work out in the grand scheme of character chronologies?

Re: Doctor Strange chronology

Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:39 am
by SanctumSanctorumBlog
For continuities sake, the events of Secret Defenders needs to be happening some time directly AFTER the destruction of the Sanctum in Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme # 61, but NOT before the LAST PAGES of # 62.

You see, it seems there are a few items of contention here that, if you'll permit me to clarify, need to be answered.

First off, the masked version of Strange that is being mentioned was NOT actually Doctor Strange, but a simulacrum (1 of 2 such entities) created magically by Doctor Strange to serve as his earthly emissaries while he was underground.

The destruction of the Sanctum Sanctorum took place in Doctor Strange : Sorcerer Supreme # 60 & 61 - the effects of which was also seen in many other issues in the Marvel books of that time.
A few among them are: Secret Defenders # 11, Marvel Comics Presents # 146, Spectacular Spider-Man # 207 & 208.
(Heck. it was ALSO seen in at least ONE title from DC Comics as well: Green Lantern v3 # 57 !)

Secret Defenders does show the Sanctum in rubble and Dr Strange appears to Nova in Astral Form (his body being in a dimensional pocket HQ "The Forge" as he builds a new form of magic).

However, Doctor Strange, as pictured therein looked about the same as he did in any comic prior to his mansion's destruction - wearing the Cloak and having a full head of HAIR - (however, the art by Tom Grindberg, Mike DeCarlo & co is so sloppy we can't tell if Doc has his mustache - which we will find to be an important detail).

In DS:SS (or in your nomenclature: DRSTR3) # 62 Doc finally appears on the last page (having called Morbius to Doc's new pocket dimensional Sanctum) and has foregone wearing the Cloak and has shaved his head AND mustache.

DRSTR3 60 and 61 show the destruction of the Sanctum and the emergence of "STRANGE" (who, remember is NOT DOCTOR Strange). At the start of #61 Dr Strange looks normal, but by the time "Strange" is summoned, when seen in an other-dimensional realm OUTSIDE of the passage of time (with the pregnant-with-Chthon, Victoria Montesi) DOC has already shaved off his mustache, but still has a full head of hair. By the last page of # 62 he has shaved his head as well.
(This white timeless realm is important to slow down the passage of time to prevent the birth of Chthon, but also gives us a little wiggle room as to when the sequence of events therein take place - but really is not important overall unless you need a little time with which to play.)

So, Secret Defenders # 11 occurs after the Sanctum is destroyed in # 61 (and the rest of the Midnight Sons run off and away from the site) and BEFORE the end of # 62.

I detailed this series of events in an informative series detailing each and every time the Sanctum Sanctorum was destroyed and rebuilt.
The post with THIS event (among a few others) is in PART V :
http://sanctumsanctorumcomix.blogspot.c ... rt_28.html

Thanks for entertaining my detailed explanation.
And feel free to check out that series of posts detailing the Many Rise(s) and Fall(s) of the Sanctum Sanctorum - for your convenience here is the final addendum post that gives a checklist of links to all the other 8 parts of the series:
http://sanctumsanctorumcomix.blogspot.c ... torum.html

Sanctum Sanctorum Comix

Re: Doctor Strange chronology

Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:14 pm
by Paul Bourcier
So, if Dr. Strange's appearance in SECDEF 11 is between DRSTR3 61 and 62, then his other appearances in the Starblast saga should be there too.
SECDEF 11 [move from here]
MG:I 1
MG:I 2
MG:I 3
MG:I 4
SS3 87 [move from here]
WCHRON 7 [move from here]
WIW 24 [move from here]
T 470 [move from here]
SS3 88 [move from here]
WCHRON 8 [move from here]
WIW 25 [move from here]
T 471 [move from here]
GR3 44
M/CP 143
SOV 17
NS 15
M/CP 145/2
M/CP 146/3
SECDEF 11 [move to here]
SS3 87 [move to here]
WCHRON 7 [move to here]
WIW 24 [move to here]
T 470 [move to here]
SS3 88 [move to here]
WCHRON 8 [move to here]
WIW 25 [move to here]
T 471 [move to here]
NS 16
NS 17
NS 18

Does this look right?

Re: Doctor Strange chronology

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:47 pm
by lettsmonster
I believe that the Doctor Strange chronology from SS3 87 to T 471 is part of the Blood and Thunder saga and not the Siege of Darkness. As such, I feel they are fine where they are in the timeline. As for SECDEF 11 chronology, I still feel it entirely occurs before DRSTR3 61. The mansion is completely destroyed in DRSTR3 60. And in DRSTR61, page 6, panel 1, Doctor Strange and Victoria Montesi return to a completely destroyed mansion. I believe Nova visits sometime between these two issues, while Doctor Strange is still battling the Siege of Darkness. One theory for the appearance of his astral form is that Strange is still guarding his arcane objects, which he does not remove until DRSTR61, page 17, panel 2, in order to protect them from Salome (although admittedly he didn't protect them very well in PPTSS 207-208). And as for a moustache, you can see the little squiggle in SECDEF 11, page 4, panel 4, if this helps to place this issue before DRSTR3 61.

Re: Doctor Strange chronology

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:39 pm
by Paul Bourcier
Lettsmonster, do you have a proposed placement of specific pages/panels in DRSTR3 61 between which Dr. Strange should appear in SECDEF 11? SanctumSanctorumBlog, what do you think of the placement of SECDEF 61 during DRSTR3 61? Does anyone else have an opinion vis-a-vis Strange's chronology specifically or about larger MU chronology at this time that would bear on this discussion?

Re: Doctor Strange chronology

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:22 pm
by SanctumSanctorumBlog
The other items Paul Borcier mention are indeed BLOOD and THUNDER issues and as such were perfectly fine in their original positions.
They would have to occur BEFORE DRSTR3 # 61, since Strange is still a powerful Sorcerer Supreme in those issues (despite being easily knocked unconscious by a bonk to the head :roll: ).

Secret Defenders 11 should take place AFTER DRSTR3 61 since if NOVA showed up DURING the issue he would have met the rest of the Midnight Sons and maybe even been party to the battle at the Sanctum.
No, he appeared AFTER the rest of the Midnight Sons LEFT the site, which was on the past page of # 61.
So, some time BETWEEN DRSTR3 61 and 62 is when Secret Defenders 11 takes place.

(Luckily, that sequence of events I mentioned - in the white-astral realm outside of time's flow - can work both ways, and can easily be factored so that Doc's shaven mustache can be within DRSTR3 61, but have occurred at a slightly later time, AFTER the issue - since time there was drastically relative.)


Re: Doctor Strange chronology

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:42 pm
by SanctumSanctorumBlog
I just read the many crossover issues of SIEGE OF DARKNESS that crossed over between the events from DRSTR3 60 up until after DRSTR3 61 and there is simply NO time for Strange to aid NOVA at all during the bulk of the time he is engaged therein.
As soon as he destroys his Sanctum, he goes off with the Spirits of Vengeance & Nightstalkers, is running around fighting Zarathos, gets sucked into a battle with demons to save Victoria Montesi and then engages Nightmare in a battle against Salome (he's in an altered state of consciousness during this) and THEN goes into the events of DRSTR3 61.
During the issue, he is almost immediately beset upon by the Darkhold agent and then Salome - and the battle rages until he pulls back into his pocket dimension for escape.

Only once he is safely ensconced within his "FORGE" dimension does he even have the time to plan ahead or assist others (this is when he calls Morbius to him). He could have briefly aided NOVA before Morbius' arrival, so any time AFTER DRSTR3 61 and BEFORE the end of DRSTR3 # 62 is when Secret Defenders 11 can occur.

I just re-read the MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS # 146 (Devilslayer story) & NIGHTSTALKERS # 16 and in both of those tales there are heroes (Devil Slayer and Frank Drake respectively) who go to Doc's Sanctum (or the rubble where it USED to be) looking for Doc's help and there is NO sign of him. No astral self, No "leave a mystic message after the beep"... nothing.
M/CP #146 took place BEFORE DRSTR3 61 but Nightstalkers 16 takes place AFTER.

So, when Doc meets up with Drake later in the issue (Darkstalkers 16) Doc says that he could not reply to Drake's plea for aid because Doc himself was too busy with ...other matters.
Those "other matters" (while probably mostly dealt with his own itinerary) COULD have included NOVA's side-project in SECRET DEFENDERS 11.

I hope this helps.


Re: Doctor Strange chronology

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:12 pm
by lettsmonster
Actually, there is an unknown amount of time in which Doctor Strange is unaccounted for. We see the unconscious from of Doctor Strange in NS 15, page 12, panel 5. His next appearance is rescuing Victoria Montesi in the very last panel of MC/P 145/2. I would place the SECDEF 11 appearance of Doctor Strange between these two issues. One of my points is that he BARELY has time to help Nova. This is also the time between the banishment of the Lilin and the major battle with the Fallen, a slight yet significant lull in action. I feel that in the "Forge dimension" he would have more time to help Nova than he does. The whole storyline in SECDEF 11 could take place in a couple hours real time. After transporting the Hulk to the final battle in the issue, Doctor Strange doesn't even wait five minutes to transport him home. Clearly a man with a lot else going on! The mansion could have been guarded by a mystic signal when his arcane artifacts were still there and not after he removed them in DRSTR3 61. Hence, Frank Drake found no evidence of Doctor Strange at his mansion because there was nothing left to protect, just an empty lot as Frank Drake relates in NS 16. Just some thoughts, thanks!

Re: Doctor Strange chronology

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:32 pm
by SanctumSanctorumBlog
I understand what you're saying. Truly. But when reading the events of the Seige crossover up to that point, Doc is totally immersed in absolute chaos.
Even in times of calm, when others have come to Strange for aid, he might be home and just not help them (obviously for editorial reasons, so that the titular star can get himself out of the jam) but also because Doc doesn't always have time to help everyone every time.

So, with all the cluster**** going on around him during the Seige, AND his magic acting all wonky, he truly wouldn't have a moment (not really to care) for Nova's relatively minor problem.

Not until he is away from the madness of the Siege and able to gather his thoughts can he be afforded the time to astrally chat with Nova.
Otherwise, mightn't Doc tell Nova that he is in the MIDDLE of something, instead of taking his leisurely lotus-position stance?
Doc in Secret Defs 11 is fairly calm, cool and collected. He's obviously outside of the events of the Seige, but still relatively busy working on his own project (rebuilding a source for magic).

So, really if Secret Defenders NEEDS to be during the time of DRSTR3 61 that's fine, but I truly believe it happens just afterwards (after the Sons depart the scene and Doc is in his FORGE).

Of course that's just my take on it.

Re: Doctor Strange chronology

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:33 am
by Col_Fury
The point Paul is making, though, is that Secret Defenders #11 is part of the Starblast crossover, and that because of larger Marvel Universe concers, the Starblast crossover occurs *right before* (essentially at the same time as) the Blood and Thunder crossover.

If Secret Defenders (a Starblast issue) is moved in Dr. Strange's chronology, then the Blood and Thunder issues need to be moved as well. Starblast needs to occur before Blood and Thunder.

Do we see Dr. Strange's house in any Blood and Thunder issues?

Can Dr. Strange appear in the Blood and Thunder crossover during or after Dr. Strange #61?

Re: Doctor Strange chronology

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:33 am
by SanctumSanctorumBlog
In Silver Surfer 87, Surfer & Warlock go to Doctor Strange's Sanctum and it is intact and he is still Sorcerer Supreme.
Definitely BEFORE DRSTR3 60.

No way for Blood & Thunder to be before DRSTR3 60.
(Maybe in the moments right BEFORE # 60, as the span between DRSTR3 59 and #60 is the last possible place for this to occur.)
But Secret Defenders 11 happens afterward (at least as far as publishing date and sequence of events for DOC).
Sorry. Don't know how to help you on this.