Avengers Academy v1 #24-FB

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Avengers Academy v1 #24-FB

Post by Frans » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:36 am

In Avengers Academy v1 #24 on page 1 there is a flashback in which Iron Man and Storm fight Dire Wraiths. Also the army is present and also Wraithworld is visible. I presume this has to be part of ROM v1 #65 where all the heroes help ROM the Spaceknight. I think Storm was not present there, but I don't have the issue by hand.

As far as I'm aware Storm and Iron Man never fought Dire Wraiths together. Storm also is in her oldest costume. She fought Dire Wraiths with the X-Men in her old costume in ROM #17 and #18. Iron Man was not present and if I do remember correctly the X-Men fought Hybrid and not several Dire Wraiths.
The next time Storm encounters Dire Wraiths on panel is Uncanny X-Men v1 #187 and #188. She has her mohawk and no powers, so this couldn't be around then.

Is this an off panel fight or did I miss some issues?

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Re: Avengers Academy v1 #24-FB

Post by Michael » Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:10 pm

The problem is that Rom 65 explicitly takes place after Storm lost her powers, so it can't be Rom 65.
The other problem is that the Wraiths appear to be female Wraiths and by the time the heroes saw the female Wraiths without their cloaks, Storm had gone mohawk. (Note Storm seems to have no clue what a female Wraith is when she first gets attacked by one in UX 187.)

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Re: Avengers Academy v1 #24-FB

Post by Frans » Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:53 pm

Thanks, any idea when this takes place? Can we be certain this is an error or could the fight be on off-panel one.

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Re: Avengers Academy v1 #24-FB

Post by Michael » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:35 am

The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that this is supposed to be Rom 65 and the artist forgot Storm had no powers and a mohawk at the time. Maybe we should assume this is an illusion of Storm created by Xavier to fool the Wraiths.
The alternative would be to retcon in an encounter between Iron Man, Storm and the female Wraiths before Storm went mohawk and assume that Storm never learned much about the Wraiths before UX 187.

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Re: Avengers Academy v1 #24-FB

Post by Paul Bourcier » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:26 am

I like the explanation of an illusion cast by Xavier.
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Re: Avengers Academy v1 #24-FB

Post by Leoparis » Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:32 pm

The illusions cast by Xavier are theoretically only visible in the mind but maybe he helped Captain Marvel [Monica Rambeau] cast one. Iron Man also used to be able to cast holograms (of himself)

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Re: Avengers Academy v1 #24-FB

Post by Frans » Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:22 pm

Wraithworld (or its Black Sun) is also seen on the panel in Avengers Academy #24, indicating that the worlds were merging. Another factor taking into account that this happens around or during ROM #65. The Iron Man appearing then is James Rhodes. Was James Rhodes also able to cast holograms?

I'm also thinking an illusion would work better then a retcon. A retcon would give more problems, because it would also indicate another moment where the merging Earth and Wraithworld is the threat.

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Re: Avengers Academy v1 #24-FB

Post by Col_Fury » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:43 pm

Who's remembering the fight? Could they just be remembering it wrong, meaning, they remember Storm being there when she really wasn't?
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Re: Avengers Academy v1 #24-FB

Post by DonCampbell » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:04 am

Col_Fury wrote:Who's remembering the fight? Could they just be remembering it wrong, meaning, they remember Storm being there when she really wasn't?
On page 1, Reptil (actually Adult Reptil in his younger self's body) asks Juston Seyfert, "Do you know what a Dire Wraith is?" Juston answers with the question, "You mean like those aliens who change shape and shove their spiky tongues into your brain?" The flashback you've been discussing is the panel accompanying Juston's answer but I don't think that it qualifies as a true flashback. After all, neither Reptil nor Juston were present at that final battle so they couldn't actually be "remembering" what happened. Also, as you've pointed out, it contains elements which are inconsistent with what "really happened" during the final battle in Rom #65.

I don't believe that this can be considered a true flashback. In my opinion, that panel would best be described as what Juston imagined might have happened during that battle. It's a scenario that he created using information that he'd heard/read about various battles fought against the Wraiths but he's gotten his facts mixed together (like taking what Storm looked like when she and the X-Men fought Hybrid and adding that image of her into the final battle in which Iron Man took part but where Storm wasn't even present).

As I understand it, "real" flashbacks are either a) memories of the past as recalled by someone who was present at that past time or b) objective scenes of past events that took place prior to the issue's first page. Since this is neither, it shouldn't be counted as a FB.

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Re: Avengers Academy v1 #24-FB

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:48 am

DonCampbell wrote:After all, neither Reptil nor Juston were present at that final battle so they couldn't actually be "remembering" what happened.
Sweet. That's what I was hoping for.

I agree that this problematic flashback is unreliable and that we shouldn't worry about it.

Thanks, Don!
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Re: Avengers Academy v1 #24-FB

Post by Frans » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:04 pm

I'm relatively new at this. Pardon my ignorance.

But, does this mean that we neglect the panel altogether? Or treat it as an "illusion" that never happened?

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Re: Avengers Academy v1 #24-FB

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:55 pm

Frans wrote:I'm relatively new at this. Pardon my ignorance.
No worries.
Frans wrote:But, does this mean that we neglect the panel altogether?
That's what I'm suggesting, yes.
Frans wrote:Or treat it as an "illusion" that never happened?
Sort of.

The panel we're talking about is a reference to Rom #65. We know Storm wasn't there and couldn't have been there as depicted in this panel. The two people talking about Rom #65, Reptil and Juston, weren't there and don't have first hand knowledge of Rom #65. But as they talk about it, they think that Storm WAS there, as evidenced in the panel. But I (and Don) are suggesting that they're wrong, she wasn't there.

If we have to call this panel anything, I'd say that Storm and Iron Man are in Reptil and Juston's thoughts. They're picturing an event that didn't happen. It wouldn't strictly be a flashback in this case.

Here's a comparison: A few days ago, Johnny tripped in the supermarket parking lot. His face landed on a parking block and he got a black eye. Later, Sally sees that Johnny has a black eye. A few days later, Sally tells Sue that Johnny got into a fight with Rick, and that's why Johnny has a black eye. Sally and Sue weren't there, they don't have first hand knowledge of Johnny being in the parking lot. The "scene" that Sally and Sue are talking about, Johnny fighting Rick, didn't happen, but they think that's what happened. But they're wrong, Rick wasn't there and there was no fight.

I hope I'm making sense...
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Re: Avengers Academy v1 #24-FB

Post by lkseitz » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:09 pm

Man, a Rom/Dire Wraith discussion and I missed most of it. (Nevermind that I somehow missed that Storm's presence in the flashback was impossible.) FWIW, everything said about Iron Man being Rhodey and Storm being without powers in ROM 65-66 is correct. (For confirmation, the MCP shows ROM 65-66 taking place between UX 192 & 193; Storm lost her powers in UX 185.) I also reviewed ROM #65 and no, Storm isn't there.

I was going to invoke the "rehashback" rule of flashbacks, except Storm appearing during these events would be new information. Drat! So whatever works for not counting this flashback, I'm for.
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Re: Avengers Academy v1 #24-FB

Post by Frans » Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:55 am

Thanks everyone for the clarifications. I'll treat this as sort of an illusion.

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Re: Avengers Academy v1 #24-FB

Post by metaldragon » Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:25 pm

lkseitz wrote:Man, a Rom/Dire Wraith discussion and I missed most of it. (Nevermind that I somehow missed that Storm's presence in the flashback was impossible.) FWIW, everything said about Iron Man being Rhodey and Storm being without powers in ROM 65-66 is correct. (For confirmation, the MCP shows ROM 65-66 taking place between UX 192 & 193; Storm lost her powers in UX 185.) I also reviewed ROM #65 and no, Storm isn't there.

I was going to invoke the "rehashback" rule of flashbacks, except Storm appearing during these events would be new information. Drat! So whatever works for not counting this flashback, I'm for.
ROM 65-66 had art issues. Defenders 142 makes a dialogue and footnote reference to ROM 65-66 so the Defenders appearance there takes place between DEF 142 & 143. Problem is- Moondragon is drawn wearing her old green outfit & still wearing the power limiting headband Odin put on her but she was freed of that headband a few issues before DEF 142 and had recently created a new black & white costume for herself right after losing the headband. I'm not surprised they messed up the flashback. lol!
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