Iron Man Daredevil Hulk Man-Thing 1976

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KirkM
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Iron Man Daredevil Hulk Man-Thing 1976

Post by KirkM » Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:00 am

I've got a continuity paradox that has me stumped.

According to the Iron Man index and his timeline here, his appearances in Iron Man 88-91 precede his appearances in Marvel Team-Up 48-51.

The Hulk's appearance in MTU 51, according to his timeline, occur before Hulk 197-198.

Again in the Iron Man index, Man-Thing appears in Hulk 197-198 before Iron Man Annual 3, which occurs before... Iron Man 88.

Help.

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Re: Iron Man Daredevil Hulk Man-Thing 1976

Post by Russ Chappell » Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:52 am

Kirk,

Do you have any of the books?

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Re: Iron Man Daredevil Hulk Man-Thing 1976

Post by Michael » Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:55 am

Kirk, Tony and the Hulk don't interact at all in M/TU 51. There's no reason we can't say that their scenes in M/TU 51 don't take place at different times.

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Re: Iron Man Daredevil Hulk Man-Thing 1976

Post by Russ Chappell » Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:01 am

If we could move M/TU 51 to after H2 198 in Hulk's chronology (and I don't know if that's possible), then we'd have:

H2 197-198
IM@ 3
IM 88-91
M/TU 48-51

Alternatively, If Hulk appears only in the first part of M/TU 51, and Iron Man appears only in the second part of M/TU 51 (with a break of some sort to distance this app from M/TU 48-50), and they don't appear together, then the chronologies can stand. Not likely, I'll admit, but we won't know, until we go to the books.

ETA: Michael's thinking along the same lines.

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Re: Iron Man Daredevil Hulk Man-Thing 1976

Post by Leoparis » Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:10 pm

It's true that Hulk's appearance in #51 is totally disconnected from the other characters but that doesn't solve the paradox. He only appears at the end of #51 alone as a preview for his appearance in #53. So MTU 51 for Hulk belongs just before 53

The loop:
Iron Man: Iron Man 88-91, Marvel Team-Up 48-51.
Hulk: MTU 51, Hulk 197-198.
Man-Thing: Hulk 197-198, Iron Man Annual 3 (which occurs before... Iron Man 88).

This sequence would mean that Hulk's appearance at the tail end of MTU 51 takes place before MTU 48
(MTU 51 [Hulk] < Hulk 197-198 [Hulk, Man-Thing]< Iron Man Annual 3 [Iron Man, Man-Thing]<Iron Man 88-91 < Marvel Team-Up 48-51 [Iron Man, Spider-Man, Pr X, Dr Strange, Moondragon])

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Re: Iron Man Daredevil Hulk Man-Thing 1976

Post by KirkM » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:14 pm

It looks like Hulk is in MTU 51 for all of 3 panels, bounding across the desert "searching for peace." That could be anywhere during any break in his timeline before around issue 270. When is he NOT bounding across the desert looking for peace?

Where moving around timelines gets tricky here is coordinating Hulk's and Power Man's appearances in Defenders and Fantastic Four. According to Hulk's timeline, the 11-part Headmen saga in Defenders 31-40, @1 wraps up before Fantastic Four 166. A look at Luke Cage's timeline has his appearances in Defenders 37-40, @1 occurring after FF 168-170.

(Seriously, why couldn't the new index guys have done Hulk, Fantastic Four, and Daredevil before tackling Ghost Rider, Punisher and Wolverine? WHY?!)

Hulk is absent from Defenders from 37 p.4 - 40 p.7. If that's enough time for Hulk 194-198 to happen, and I think it could be, that would get Man-Thing in Hulk 198 before Iron Man@ 3. Hulk's timeline would be.

Def 26-35
OU 2
Def 36-37
Hulk 194-198
Def 40
Def@ 1
FF 166-167
Hulk@ 5

with his 3 panels in MTU 51 happening whenever, even right before MTU 53. But we still need to reconcile Matt Murdock's appearance in Def 40, which I think must happen before DD shows up in IM 89. It's these long stories that are getting in the way. Spider-man's trip through time in MTU 41-46 that leads directly into MTIO 17 and MTU 47 has to happen before Iron Man's stories in MTU 48-51, which have to work with the Thing's stories in MTIO 13-19, which happen before the Thing loses his powers in FF 167, with FF 166-170 involving Hulk and Power Man, both of whom were in and out with the Defenders. The interrelatedness of the Marvel Universe is a big part of what drew me to it back in '79, but yeesh! And now I'm noticing that, thanks to Hellstorm's appearance in MTIO 14 and Daredevil's appearance in GR 20 before MTU 51, I need them involved too.

I think Def 40 needs to happen earlier in Daredevil's and Cage's timelines. Cage's would be

PM 26-31
MTIO 13
Def 37-40
Def @1
FF 168-170
PM 32-35
Def 42-46

And Daredevil's

DD 137
Def 40
IM 89
DD 138
GR 20
MTU 51

Mashing it all together, including Iron Man, Marvel Team-Up, MTIO, GR, DD, etc., we'd get something like

Def 31-35 ~ PM 28-31
M/Spot 23-24
SoS 1
OU 2 (-5. Spider-man's appearance in OU 5 happens before the time trip. So OU 3-5 happen somewhere in here)
MTIO 13
MTIO 14
M/Prem 28 (with GR during GR 17, M-T before Hulk 197, and Morbius before MTIO 15 in the Legion of Monsters)
GR 17(p2:4-end)-19
Def 36-37 p3
Def 37p4 - 39 ~ Hulk 194-198
Def 40
Def@ 1
IM@ 3
IM 88-91
MTIO 15-16 (These are one-part stories that don't need to be bunched together, they just both need to happen before or during...)
MTU 41-46
MTIO 17
MTU 47
DD 138
GR 20
MTIO 18, 19
MTU 48-51
FF 166-170

The switches would be where the Hulk stories in Hulk 194-198 happen in Defenders continuity and where Defenders 37-40 occur in Cage's and Daredevil's timelines. And of course Hulk's 3 panels in MTU 51 which could be anywhere.

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Re: Iron Man Daredevil Hulk Man-Thing 1976

Post by Michael » Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:31 pm

We previously discussed these issues here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5659

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Re: Iron Man Daredevil Hulk Man-Thing 1976

Post by Ork » Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:01 pm

KirkM wrote:Where moving around timelines gets tricky here is coordinating Hulk's and Power Man's appearances in Defenders and Fantastic Four.
I guess you're having problems because you try to move H2 198 before M/TU 51.
If you move M/TU 51 after H2 198, you have less problems.
Leoparis wrote:It's true that Hulk's appearance in #51 is totally disconnected from the other characters but that doesn't solve the paradox.
It does solve it. You can move the last 3 panels of M/TU 51 after H2 198. And you get the respective chronologies:

Iron Man: Iron Man 88-91, Marvel Team-Up 48-51.
Hulk: Hulk 197-198, MTU 51.
Man-Thing: Hulk 197-198, Iron Man Annual 3.

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Re: Iron Man Daredevil Hulk Man-Thing 1976

Post by KirkM » Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:32 pm

So I looked at the thread that Michael posted. It looks like there's a problem in that I haven't figured in Professor X's appearance in MTU 51 between X-Men 97 and 98. The White King is BTS in X-Men 96 after his first appearance in PM @1 which I haven't yet included anywhere before FF 166.

Is there any reason the end of my proposed timeline couldn't be

FF 166-170
PM 32-35
PM@ 1
X-Men 96, 97
MTU 48-51 (with the exception of the Hulk's 3 panels)

That would move PM@1 before Def 42, making the Cage timeline look like this

PM 26-31
MTIO 13
Def 37-40
Def @1
FF 168-170
PM 32-35
PM@1
Def 42-46

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Re: Iron Man Daredevil Hulk Man-Thing 1976

Post by Leoparis » Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:38 am

Ork wrote:
KirkM wrote:Where moving around timelines gets tricky here is coordinating Hulk's and Power Man's appearances in Defenders and Fantastic Four.
I guess you're having problems because you try to move H2 198 before M/TU 51.
If you move M/TU 51 after H2 198, you have less problems.
Leoparis wrote:It's true that Hulk's appearance in #51 is totally disconnected from the other characters but that doesn't solve the paradox.
It does solve it. You can move the last 3 panels of M/TU 51 after H2 198. And you get the respective chronologies:

Iron Man: Iron Man 88-91, Marvel Team-Up 48-51.
Hulk: Hulk 197-198, MTU 51.
Man-Thing: Hulk 197-198, Iron Man Annual 3.
??? You contradict me but then you make a change I advocated (moving MTU 51 later) in order to solve it? I guess you didn't read my post too well.

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Re: Iron Man Daredevil Hulk Man-Thing 1976

Post by Ork » Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:16 pm

Leoparis wrote:??? You contradict me but then you make a change I advocated (moving MTU 51 later) in order to solve it? I guess you didn't read my post too well.
I say it does solve the paradox and show you the resulting problematic chronologies to prove it.
How does moving the last three panels of MTU 51 later doesn't solve it?

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Re: Iron Man Daredevil Hulk Man-Thing 1976

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:13 pm

I’ve looked over this thread and it’s obvious to me that some changes need to be made.

Man-Thing

First, the easiest solution to the Iron Man/Hulk/Man-Thing loop would be to move IM@ 3 earlier in Man-Thing’s chronology, as follows:...
M/PRM 28
*IM@ 3 [move to here]
H2 197
H2 198
*IM@ 3 [move from here]
FF 187-FB
...

Is there anything to prevent us from doing this? If not, let’s go for it so the general chronology can be: IM@3 > IM 88-91 > M/TU 51 (as in Iron Man’s chronology); M/TU 51 > H2 197-198 (as in Hulk’s chronology). Hulk’s last app before FF 166 can stand as H2 194, as noted in FF Index #10, and there’s no need to insert a gap in M/TU 51.


Luke Cage

KirkM is right – Cage’s appearances in DEF 37-40 and DEF@ 1 need to be moved earlier in his chronology. And he’s right that PM@ 1 needs to be moved earlier, as well. My recommended chronology for Cage is almost the same as his, the exceptions being PM 31 and PM@ 1, as noted below:
...
PM 30
*PM 31 [move from here]
M/TIO 13
*DEF 37 [move to here]
*DEF 38 [move to here]
*DEF 39 [move to here]
*PM@ 1-FB [move to here]
*PM@ 1 [move to here]
*DEF 40 [move to here]
*DEF@ 1 [move to here]
*PM 31 [move to here; Cage’s last app before FF 168, according to FF Index #10]
FF 168
FF 169
FF 170
PM 32
PM 33
PM 34
PM 35
*DEF 37 [move from here]
*DEF 38 [move from here]
*DEF 39 [move from here]
*DEF 40 [move from here]
*DEF@ 1 [move from here]
DEF 42
DEF 43
DEF 44
DEF 45
DEF 46
*PM@ 1-FB [move from here]
*PM@ 1 [move from here]
...

Moving the Defenders issues back maintains the general chronology as: DEF 37-40 > DEF@ 1 > FF 166, as per Hulk’s chronology.

It’s true that White King appears in PM@ 1 before UX 96. PM@1 is set in “summer,” while Olshevsky places UX 96 in September. Olshevsky places FF 168-170 in “mid-November,” so PM@ 1 would have to go before those FF issues, and since FF Index #10 notes Cage’s last previous appearance before FF 166 as PM 31, PM@1 would need to go before PM 31. DEF 40 and DEF@ 1 occur during election season, so they must occur before early November. Given that FF 168-170 occur in mid-November and that PM 31 is Cage’s last appearance before that, DEF 40 and DEF@ 1 would have to occur before PM 31. I placed the “summer” PM@ 1 during the week between DEF 39-40.


Daredevil

KirkM argues that Matt Murdock must appear in DEF 40 after IM 89, but I don’t see why. However, I do have a suggestion for two modifications to DD’s chronology, as follows:
...
M/TU 51
*WBN 42-BTS [move from here]
*DD 139 [move from here]
DD@ 4
*DD 139 [move to here]
DD 140
DD 141
DD 142
DD 143
DD 144
*WBN 42-BTS [move to here]
M/SS 1
...

The reason I suggest moving DD 139 is that Olshevsky’s Daredevil Index placed DD 139 after DD@ 1, and I believe there is a reference in DD 139 to DD@ 1 having occurred “recently.” (I don’t have the issue with me, so I can’t confirm that.)

The reason I suggest moving WGN 42 is purely from a calendar perspective. If you’ll indulge me –- my chronological analysis places WBN 42 in December after Iron Man’s December adventures in A 155-156 through IM 92-94. DD 142 makes a reference to “November.”


Hulk

I suggest moving DEF 41 and M/TE 12 earlier in Hulk’s chronology, as follows:
...
DEF@ 1
*DEF 41 [move to here]
*M/TE 12 [move to here]
H2 194
FF 166
FF 167
H2 195
WWH:GH (5-7)-FB-BTS
H2 196
H2 197
H@ 5
*DEF 41 [move from here]
*M/TE 12 [move from here]
DEF 57-FB
...

The reason for this is that M/TE 12 occurs during an election and so predates FF 166-167, which occur in mid-November according to Olshevsky. Moving DEF 41 as well preserves the integrity of the other Defenders’ chronologies, and placing both issues before H2 194 preserves the placement of Hulk’s last app before FF 166 as related in FF Index #10.


So, for a spine chronology, we have:
PM 30
M/TIO 13
DEF 37-39
PM@ 1-FB
PM@1
DEF 40
M/TU 51
DEF@ 1 [PM 31 occurs between here and FF 168]
DEF 41
M/TE 12
H2 194
FF 166-170
PM 32-35 and H2 195


Does all of this solve problems? Does it create more?
Paul B.

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Re: Iron Man Daredevil Hulk Man-Thing 1976

Post by Leoparis » Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:59 am

Ork wrote:
Leoparis wrote:??? You contradict me but then you make a change I advocated (moving MTU 51 later) in order to solve it? I guess you didn't read my post too well.
I say it does solve the paradox and show you the resulting problematic chronologies to prove it.
How does moving the last three panels of MTU 51 later doesn't solve it?
It's confirmed, you don't read my posts too well. I state that there is indeed a paradox with the existing chronology (i.e. one can't just say that the Hulk parts are disconnected from the other characters in order to solve it as these last three panels would wind up taking place before MTU 48) and then I state one has to move MTU 51's last three panels later in the chronology (before MTU 53). Then you say that Hulk's disconnected panels are enough to solve the paradox but then you just immediately contradict yourself by adding the paradox can be resolved by moving MTU 51 last three panels later. And now you ask "How does moving the last three panels of MTU 51 later doesn't solve it?"

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Re: Iron Man Daredevil Hulk Man-Thing 1976

Post by Ork » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:49 pm

Leoparis wrote:one can't just say that the Hulk parts are disconnected from the other characters in order to solve it as these last three panels would wind up taking place before MTU 48
The paradox can be solved if and only if the last three panels are disconnected. That's a necessary and sufficient condition. Being able to move those three panels later is a consequence of that. Stating that it's not sufficient would logically mean that there is another condition needed.
Another problem is that you start by stating how to solve the paradox and end with showing the paradox. That looks like you're stating that after moving the panels later, there is still a paradox. I accept the claim that I didn't read you well, but I'm not used to read upside down.

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