Defenders v5

[Paul Bourcier]

If I'm reading this week's final issue of Defenders v5 correctly, the last panel of Fear Itself #7 and the entirety of Defenders v5 #1-12 (except the last page of issue #12) now exist in an alternate reality and any appearances there do not count as Earth-616 appearances by the various characters therein. Is that right?

[Somebody]

Looks that way (well, it unhappened, anyway. Technically it's probably been shunted to an alt-universe)

What does this mean for Hulk (Rulk) #50 though, where the existence of the Defenders involving Dr Strange & She-Rulk affects both the flashback with Betty (it's why she jumps off at the end) and the present involving Dr Strange looking for that FB to start with when in Rulk's mind, and Rulk storming off through Strange's skylight when he realises Strange has formed a group of Defenders including her (which Strange admits)?

[Frans]

These Defenders, Doc Strange, Iron Fist and Silver Surfer also appear in New Mutants #44, as the Defenders?

I've just read Defenders 1-12 and except for the last page of #12 seem to be an alternate universe or the least is negated at the end. What to do with the guest appearances in Hulk 50 and New Mutants 44? And are there more guest appearances in other series?

[Paul Bourcier]

And whatever happened to the threat of Nul? Did Hulk find help to defeat him?

Confusion...

[Somebody]

These Defenders, Doc Strange, Iron Fist and Silver Surfer also appear in New Mutants #44, as the Defenders?

I just had a look at that issue. It's fine - at no point are they called "Defenders". Strange says they're there because his magical "associates" detected a big problem, and Surfer backs him up, saying the problem's also there in space/time. Surfer & Strange are old colleagues and Surfer could come to him, while Iron Fist is Strange's Avengers teammate, ja? I don't think this is reliant on them being (half of) a team of Defenders.

[Col_Fury]

I haven't read any of these Defenders issues yet, but…

At the end of the volume, Dr. Strange travels backwards in time and alters events so that the later events don't happen the same way, right?

This is exactly what Dr. Stange did at the end of the Kulan Gath story from Uncanny #189-191. This created an alternate Earth (Earth-8591), as clarified in the Handbooks and Index. You'll notice that at the MCP, Colossus' chronology jumps from UX 189 to UX 192, because his appearances in UX 190-191 didn't happen on Earth-616.

So yeah, I'd say this current volume of Defenders doesn't happen on Earth-616. Whenever we get around to adding this volume to the MCP, we'll probably add in the alternate versions of the characters like we did with the Mutant X series.

I also haven't read Hulk #50 yet, but it's sounding like that one issue may also take place in the same reality that the Defenders volume takes place in.

[Somebody]

He alters the events of Defenders (2011) #1 so that instead of spelling out "rage", his tea-drips spell out "girl". As such, he goes chasing after the girl he slept with and so isn't in when Hulk comes calling (per FI 7). Instead, Hulk goes off to look for someone else to stop Nul for him.

HULK 50's flashback is a follow-up to the ending of Hulk #48, with Ross & Betty bonding. In the present, it's the first part of a three-part arc guest-starring Strange, the Unforgiven (Gishler's pet vampires from his X3 run) and the Legion of Monsters (Morbius, et al).

[Chris McCarver]

I haven't read any of these Defenders issues yet, but…

At the end of the volume, Dr. Strange travels backwards in time and alters events so that the later events don't happen the same way, right?

This is exactly what Dr. Stange did at the end of the Kulan Gath story from Uncanny #189-191. This created an alternate Earth (Earth-8591), as clarified in the Handbooks and Index. You'll notice that at the MCP, Colossus' chronology jumps from UX 189 to UX 192, because his appearances in UX 190-191 didn't happen on Earth-616.

So yeah, I'd say this current volume of Defenders doesn't happen on Earth-616. Whenever we get around to adding this volume to the MCP, we'll probably add in the alternate versions of the characters like we did with the Mutant X series.

I also haven't read Hulk #50 yet, but it's sounding like that one issue may also take place in the same reality that the Defenders volume takes place in.

Slightly off-topic, Daron, but just to clarify, if a story arc gets temporally erased by someone going back in time and altering events, those stories are considered alt-U and chopped from those characters' chronologies?

[Col_Fury]

Generally speaking, yes. I'm sure there's more than a few exceptions, though.

Here's one exception I can think of off the top of my head:

Spoiler:

One More Day/One Moment in Time

Obscured so this doesn't get TOTALLY off-topic.

But yeah, if the events depicted in say, Uncanny X-Men #190 are erased through time travel, as they were by Dr. Strange in Uncanny #191, then they'd be erased from Earth-616's history. HOWEVER, Dr. Strange lived through those events, and still remembers them, so Uncanny X-Men #190 would still be in Dr. Strange's chronology because the Earth-616 Dr. Strange experienced them. The same would go for anyone he brought back in time with him, like Captain America and Storm (and a few others). Of course, Spider-Man is killed in Uncanny X-Men #191, so there's no way the Earth-616 Spider-Man could have experienced those events… he's still alive.

Which makes me wonder, does Earth-616 Dr. Strange get this volume of Defenders put into his chronology? He's the one who altered the past events, splitting this from Earth-616, right? Does he remember the events of this Defenders volume? Or is that part left as a mystery?

I REALLY need to get caught up on my reading…
.

[Somebody]

Which makes me wonder, does Earth-616 Dr. Strange get this volume of Defenders put into his chronology? He's the one who altered the past events, splitting this from Earth-616, right? Does he remember the events of this Defenders volume? Or is that part left as a mystery?

He absolutely does NOT remember - he tries and fails to "talk" (astrally) to his past self, then resorts to changing this:



to this:



which causes him to be here with "Molly":



...when the Hulk showed up (per FI 7 and issue 1). The resulting Dr. Strange is entirely unaware of any sort of change whatsoever. [Incidentally, note the production glitch - there's no way that's the same article!]

("Tomorrow" is a misnomer, incidentally. Future-Strange describes the scene as "the day of the night the Hulk showed up" in #12.)

[DonCampbell]

Which makes me wonder, does Earth-616 Dr. Strange get this volume of Defenders put into his chronology? He's the one who altered the past events, splitting this from Earth-616, right? Does he remember the events of this Defenders volume? Or is that part left as a mystery?

In Defenders #12, the older Strange went back in time and altered the message that his younger self received from the tea drips, causing younger-Strange to follow a different path than the one which led to the discovery of the Concordance Engine. The older Strange then returned to the future from which he came only to find that things had gotten even worse..."and then everything died."

Meanwhile, back in the past, younger-Strange had dinner with Molly instead of summoning the Defenders to deal with Nul and as a result the Concordance Engines have not yet been found. Thus, younger-Strange only remembers what happened in Defenders #1 up until the reading of the tea drips after which the "new" events from Defenders #12 take over. So, the events of Defenders #1-12 which led to a Cosmic Apocalypse where everything died (and which WAS Earth-616) have been diverted to an alternate Earth. The divergence point between Earth-616 and Earth-Cosmic Apocalypse is between panels 3 and 4 on page 4 of Defenders #1. Of course, if one considers the mere presence of future-Strange`s astral self as being enough to cause a divergence, then Strange`s activities on pages 3-4 of DEF5 1 would have been overwritten by his activities on pages 11-14 of DEF5 12.

The only question left is how to integrate events from issues #1 and 12 which cover the time period between when Molly knocked on Strange`s door and when Strange read the tea drips. It could get messy, mixing panels from both issues in order to make a coherent whole.

Don Campbell

[Somebody]

The only question left is how to integrate events from issues #1 and 12 which cover the time period between when Molly knocked on Strange`s door and when Strange read the tea drips. It could get messy, mixing panels from both issues in order to make a coherent whole.

The interleaving's pretty simple, actually, with Strange, Molly, Hulk and Wong the only notable MU characters appearing. From Molly knocking on Strange's door to the end of the series:

Defenders #12 (11)
Defenders #1 (3)
Defenders #12 (12:2-13:6)
Defenders #1 (4:1-4:3)
Defenders #12 (14)
Fear Itself #7/5 (3:3-4:1)
Defenders #12 (20-21)

[Note that Defenders #12 (12:1) is a slightly erroneous version of Defenders #1 (3:3) - Molly should be wearing her glasses, and end with "again" rather than "anymore". Similarly, the diner looks different from the outside, but future-Strange makes no comment on this, and indeed seems to recognise it as the same place, so it's a straight error.]

[Paul Bourcier]

Fantastic, guys! Thanks for straightening this out.

[Somebody]

Fantastic, guys! Thanks for straightening this out.

Still not got Hulk #50 sorted though - are we just going to fudge it, and assume all the events basically happened even if they didn't happen quite the same way?

[DonCampbell]

The interleaving's pretty simple, actually, with Strange, Molly, Hulk and Wong the only notable MU characters appearing.

Yeah, I guess you're right about that. I was actually thinking that the character of Molly had appeared back in last year's POINT ONE one-shot and that it was that appearance which would have to be integrated into the DEF5 1/DEF5 12 mix but that seems to not be the case. My mistake.

[Note that Defenders #12 (12:1) is a slightly erroneous version of Defenders #1 (3:3) - Molly should be wearing her glasses, and end with "again" rather than "anymore".

Although Gruenwaldian time-travel theory would insist that the mere presence of future-Strange's astral form would be enough to cause a divergence, more recent theories would say that that astral form's presence might have altered the timeline slightly without causing a divergence. Thus, the fact that Molly isn't wearing her glases and ends her sentence with "anymore" in DEF5 12 would just be what happened in the "revised" 616 timeline and not an error at all. Of course, that wouldn't help with the different outside appearance of the diner.

Still not got Hulk #50 sorted though - are we just going to fudge it, and assume all the events basically happened even if they didn't happen quite the same way?

It WOULD be nice if someone would come up with a story that explained what happened with Nul now that the Defenders weren't reformed to stop him. What do you think the chances are that Marvel will bother with such a continuity-fix?

Don Campbell