Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Frans » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:19 pm

In New Avengers 20 Spider-Man says when he sees Ai Apaec: "Ugh, first Spider-Island and now this guy?". Implying that Avengers/New Avengers - Osborn's Dark Avengers arc happens after Spider-Island.

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:20 pm

Franz wrote:
Avengers #18 and #19 refer to Thor being dead. When Captain America needs new Avengers, he addresses the current Avengers in Avengers #18 "...We've lost some dear friends... and Avengers #19 he talks to Iron Man about their team as the santioned authority: ...And now we..we don't have Thor, we don't have Bucky..pause".
Leading directly into 20 through 24, which is rather a continuous story with Osborn. Next issue 25 is AvX.
Avengers #18 does occur right after Fear Itself and before Mighty Thor #8. Cap's reference to losing dear friends should be interpreted as including Thor.

However, I believe there's a gap between Avengers #18 and 19. The latter features the big roster shake-up with the new team announced as Cap, Iron Man, Storm, Quake, Spider-Woman, Vision, Red Hulk, Protector, and Hawkeye. (I believe Avengers: X-Sanction #1-4 occur before Avengers #19 because the latter has the the pre-shake-up roster. I also believe Avengers #19 occurs after Schism. I interpreted Logan's "you here now?" question to Ororo in Avengers #19 as being post-Schism; with the two separated into different X-teams, Logan might find it surprising to see Storm on a team of his now.)

Avenging Spider-Man #5 shows the pre-shake-up roster, suggesting that AvSM 5 occurs before Avengers #19. Avenging Spider-Man #1 shows Thor with the Avengers (including Spidey, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Spider-Woman, Wolverine, Red Hulk, and Steve Rogers in his Super-Soldier costume), and that premier issue of Avenging must occur after Spider-Island since Spidey has his spider-sense back. Because Spider-Island occurs after Fear Itself, we have:
Fear Itself
Avengers #18
Spider-Island
Avenging Spider-Man #1-5
Avengers #19

So Thor appears with the team (but perhaps not as a regular team member) before the roster shake-up of Avengers #19. His return from the dead would need to occur before Avenging Spider-Man #1, and Cap's note that "we don't have Thor" in Avengers #19 doesn't necessarily reflect the fact that Thor's dead, just that he hasn't returned to full participation on the team.

So I think Mighty Thor #8-12 occur after Avengers #8. Then, after coming back to life, Thor decides to postpone his return to the Avengers, appearing with them only once (in Avenging Spider-Man #1) before officially returning in Avengers #25-FB (which follows Avengers #24 and thus occurs after the roster shake-up).

Are there any problems with this arrangement?
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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by JephYork » Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:46 pm

My only problem is, we don't seem to be working on figuring out where Wolverine #10-16 occur anymore... ;)

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:41 pm

Jeph, what's the nature of Thor's appearance? And do you have an idea about how Logan's appearance in these issues fit in with Schism?
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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by JephYork » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:48 pm

No guest appearances in Wolvie #10-15 at all.

In Wolvie #16, Melita Garner interviews a lot of heroes about Wolverine, one by one, including Thor. Each interview is a single panel -- there's no sense of whether the heroes are all gathered in a big room, or whether she's traveled all over to speak with each of them individually.

Later in the issue, Thor and 24 other heroes accompany Melita to the Yukon to find Wolverine and convince him to come home. We see him in one panel, as part of a large group shot of heroes, including some Avengers. Including Cap, in his classic costume and holding a non-golden-crack shield.

(I asked before, but how long is the "cracked shield" a visible thing?)

Here's who gets interviewed:

Captain America (maybe Barnes??), Rogue, Iron Fist, Hulk, Iron Man, Beast, Fantomex, Elektra, Jubilee, Hawkeye, Spider-Woman, Daimon Hellstrom, Thor, Magneto, Iceman, Dr. Strange, Puck, Gambit, Namor, Hope Summers, Thing, Deadpool, Black Panther, Emma Frost, Kitty Pryde, Storm, Cyclops, Professor X.

Here's who goes to the Yukon:

Nick Fury, Black Widow, Iron Man, Psylocke, Fantomex, Storm, Jubilee, Iron Fist, Professor X, Thor, Captain America (Barnes??), Thing, Cyclops, Colossus, Magneto, Iceman, Hope Summers, Beast, Spider-Woman, Emma Frost, Rogue, Gambit, Kitty Pryde, Luke Cage, Dr. Strange.

Hawkeye is in his old costume. Does that help?

The very end of Wolvie #16 leads *directly* into Schism #1. But there's a spot right before the end where time passes. Wolvie comes back from the Yukon ... then as we "hear" his voiceover, we see single panels of Wolvie fighting alongside the Avengers (Cap and Iron Man), and Wolvie fighting alongside the X-Men (Cyclops, Colossus, Magneto, Storm). No visible foes, just both teams charging into action. The next page is the lead-in to Schism #1.

Either this takes place after Thor's return, and Colossus' Juggernaut look is incorrectly missing in both the Yukon crowd shot and the fight scene ... or this occurs before Fear Itself, and Cap is in the wrong costume.

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:15 am

JephYork wrote:(I asked before, but how long is the "cracked shield" a visible thing?)
The crack is never seen in Cap's own book, and I don't recall seeing the crack anywhere outside of Fear Itself. It was very quickly forgotten.

Or, it's magic and we're not supposed to see it.
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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Frans » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:45 am

Paul Bourcier wrote:Frans wrote:
... and Avengers #19 he talks to Iron Man about their team as the santioned authority: ...And now we..we don't have Thor, we don't have Bucky..pause".
So Thor appears with the team (but perhaps not as a regular team member) before the roster shake-up of Avengers #19. His return from the dead would need to occur before Avenging Spider-Man #1, and Cap's note that "we don't have Thor" in Avengers #19 doesn't necessarily reflect the fact that Thor's dead, just that he hasn't returned to full participation on the team.
I do think that Cap meant Thor as well as Bucky to be dead (be aware that Cap already did know in Fear Itself 7.1 that Bucky is alive). Also the scene is in two panels. The second panel is a saddened Cap with his head hanging down.

I agree with the gap between 18 and 19 tough. And for the record I too believe that 19 happens after Schism for the same reason. However IF we want to place Wolverine 10-16 after Fear Itself, we need Thor to be alive.

However your reference to Avenging Spider-Man is worrying at the least. We would have Thor in these issues and then be gone for the whole Osborn saga, which does include Ragnarok (his evil clone). I'm still not convinced..

And Jeph, :D if we can figure out when Thor is back alive, the Wolverine issues could be "easier" placed?

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Jason Doty » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:23 am

If it goes before fear Itself, I'm thinking Captain America might have retaken up the mantel while Bucky was on trial. Bucky loses the Shield, then has it back with at the beginning of Fear Itself. This group of issues need to come after FF no.1 because of Ben's costume, and I think after Rogue's team heads to space in Legacy and gets back because of Magneto being in Fear Itself arc in Uncanny.

I'm for keeping this before Fear Itself because of Thor, having a reason to have Captain America retake up the mantel, and having Colossus not looking "Juggernauty." I ran into almost the same character problems in trying to investigate the Avengers: The Children's Crusade and instead of Dr. Doom, it's Thing that lets you know before or after FF no.1

That would give us 3 instances of Cap using the Shield and taking up the mantel and Thor being alive. Children's Crusade before FF no.1 (because of Doom), this arc after FF no.1 (because of Thing) after the X-Men: Legacy space arc (getting them back) then after UX 539 where Hope and Wolverine come to an understanding and Kitty's out of her containment unit followed by Avenging Spider-Man's first arc with Wolverine back in action, then Fear Itself.

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by JephYork » Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:36 am

I don't understand these last two replies very much.
I do think that Cap meant Thor as well as Bucky to be dead
That's probably what Bendis *meant*, yeah. But can it work? It's been established upthread that, at the moment of Thor's funeral, a spell was cast wiping everyone's memories that Thor ever existed. And that spell was broken *after* Thor returned to life. So the only time when Thor was actually dead, and the Marvel Universe was aware of it, was shortly before his funeral. And yet you want this issue placed after Schism...

Unless. Hmm. Did Thor return to shatter the spell publicly, in front of everyone? Or did Thor return, say, on Asgard, and shatter the spell -- leaving everyone on Earth to *once again* think him dead -- until he traveled there later and reunited with them off-panel?

Is there a small gap right after Thor's return, where references to his being thought dead could fit?
However your reference to Avenging Spider-Man is worrying at the least. We would have Thor in these issues and then be gone for the whole Osborn saga, which does include Ragnarok (his evil clone). I'm still not convinced..
I'm not sure what's "worrying" about this. Why does Thor HAVE to be around for a storyline involving his clone? He could have returned briefly for Avenging Spider-Man #1, told the Avengers that he couldn't rejoin them because he's busy rebuilding Asgardia or something -- then left to do just that, and not returned until Avengers v4 #25-FB.
I'm thinking Captain America might have retaken up the mantel while Bucky was on trial.
Well, first off, it's "mantle." A mantel is that shelf over your fireplace. ;) And secondly, I'm not even convinced that it's Steve Rogers in this Wolverine issue. Whoever it is, they're wearing a Cap costume and holding the shield. If this is pre-Fear Itself, it seems like it's easier to say that it's Bucky, and the costume is an art error -- rather than to invent a scenario where Cap would borrow the shield back and put on his old costume.
I think after Rogue's team heads to space in Legacy and gets back because of Magneto being in Fear Itself arc in Uncanny.
I have absolutely no idea what this means, or how it's relevant. Magneto goes into space at the beginning of a story -- Magneto returns from space at the end of a story. How does this give us ANY placement clues, other than "well, it can't happen in the middle of the story"?
That would give us 3 instances of Cap using the Shield and taking up the mantel
Um, what are they? You list two -- Avengers: Children's Crusade #1, which has been publicly and explicitly labeled an error by editorial (since it was written and drawn long before the creators knew what the characters' status quo would be) -- and this Wolverine cameo.

Did you mean Avenging Spider-Man #1 as the third instance? Because he's in his Super-Soldier costume there...

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by DonCampbell » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:11 pm

JephYork wrote:It's been established upthread that, at the moment of Thor's funeral, a spell was cast wiping everyone's memories that Thor ever existed.
Two things. First, I was mistaken when I stated that Thor's funeral and replacement by Tanarus took place in Mighty Thor #8. Actually, those events took place in Fear Itself: Thor #7.2, right after the All-Mother appears in fallen Asgard. A number of mortal heroes are present, including Iron Man, Spider-Man, Red Hulk, Spider-Woman, Ms. Marvel, Captain America, Wolverine and Iron Fist. As the flames of Thor's funeral pyre rise, Tanarus appears out of them and in an instant everybody has forgotten Thor and his death. Instead, they all (except Loki) remember Tanarus and know him as a hero and an Avenger who has saved the world countless times. However, exactly what happened to Thor (i.e. that he "disappeared into the rift in space-time that he bore in his side") is not revealed until the recap page of Mighty Thor #8.

Second, Mighty Thor #9 contains a four-page scene in which an Avengers team battles and kills Terminus. The seven Avengers shown are Captain America, Hawkeye, Iron Man, Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, Tanarus and that new Kree Marvel Boy (whatever his name is). Once Terminus has been dealt with, Cap has a talk with Tanarus in which he mentions that they have "known each other a long time." Despite this, Cap seems to feel that Tanarus is a bit unsettled by recent events and as Tanarus flies away Cap says to Iron Man, "I need him back. I need my guys back, Tony. Wherever he has to go, whatever he has to do...I need my God of Thunder back."

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:55 pm

Frans wrote:Avengers #18 and #19 refer to Thor being dead. When Captain America needs new Avengers, he addresses the current Avengers in Avengers #18 "...We've lost some dear friends...
Paul Bourcier wrote:Avengers #18 does occur right after Fear Itself and before Mighty Thor #8. Cap's reference to losing dear friends should be interpreted as including Thor.
DonCampbell wrote:Two things. First, I was mistaken when I stated that Thor's funeral and replacement by Tanarus took place in Mighty Thor #8. Actually, those events took place in Fear Itself: Thor #7.2, right after the All-Mother appears in fallen Asgard. A number of mortal heroes are present, including Iron Man, Spider-Man, Red Hulk, Spider-Woman, Ms. Marvel, Captain America, Wolverine and Iron Fist. As the flames of Thor's funeral pyre rise, Tanarus appears out of them and in an instant everybody has forgotten Thor and his death. Instead, they all (except Loki) remember Tanarus and know him as a hero and an Avenger who has saved the world countless times. However, exactly what happened to Thor (i.e. that he "disappeared into the rift in space-time that he bore in his side") is not revealed until the recap page of Mighty Thor #8.

Second, Mighty Thor #9 contains a four-page scene in which an Avengers team battles and kills Terminus. The seven Avengers shown are Captain America, Hawkeye, Iron Man, Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, Tanarus and that new Kree Marvel Boy (whatever his name is). Once Terminus has been dealt with, Cap has a talk with Tanarus in which he mentions that they have "known each other a long time." Despite this, Cap seems to feel that Tanarus is a bit unsettled by recent events and as Tanarus flies away Cap says to Iron Man, "I need him back. I need my guys back, Tony. Wherever he has to go, whatever he has to do...I need my God of Thunder back."
So Avengers #18 happens after Fear Itself #7 and before Fear Itself #7.2?
Frans wrote:Avengers #19 he talks to Iron Man about their team as the santioned authority: ...And now we..we don't have Thor, we don't have Bucky..pause".
Paul Bourcier wrote:Avenging Spider-Man #5 shows the pre-shake-up roster, suggesting that AvSM 5 occurs before Avengers #19. Avenging Spider-Man #1 shows Thor with the Avengers (including Spidey, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Spider-Woman, Wolverine, Red Hulk, and Steve Rogers in his Super-Soldier costume), and that premier issue of Avenging must occur after Spider-Island since Spidey has his spider-sense back. Because Spider-Island occurs after Fear Itself, we have:
Fear Itself
Avengers #18
Spider-Island
Avenging Spider-Man #1-5
Avengers #19

So Thor appears with the team (but perhaps not as a regular team member) before the roster shake-up of Avengers #19. His return from the dead would need to occur before Avenging Spider-Man #1, and Cap's note that "we don't have Thor" in Avengers #19 doesn't necessarily reflect the fact that Thor's dead, just that he hasn't returned to full participation on the team.
JephYork wrote:Is there a small gap right after Thor's return, where references to his being thought dead could fit?
It doesn't look like we need one.
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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:11 pm

Jeph wrote:
Hawkeye is in his old costume. Does that help?
Well, it's problematic.

Hawkeye appears in his NEW costume in Mighty Thor #9, before Thor is resurrected. Hawkeye appears in his OLD costume in Avenging Spider-Man #1 (which is after Spider-Island, which is post-Fear Itself), in which Thor appears! Argh.

Hawkeye still appears in his classic costume in Avengers Academy #21, but "days" later in Avengers Academy #22, he's in his new costume. I suspect that AvAc 22 is the first chronological appearance of the new costume.

(The new costume is shown shortly after FI in Fear Itself: The Fearless #10, but I believe it's an art error. Could Thor #9 also feature a premature apearance of the new costume?)

In Avenging Spider-Man, the costume changes between issues #3 and #4. In Avengers, the costume changes between issues #18 and #19.

The new costume also makes some of its earliest appearances in Secret Avengers #21.1 (in which it's noted as "new") and Captain America #6.

OK...so could the appearance of the old costume in Avenging Spider-Man #1 be attributed to laundry day? Its reappearance in Avenging Spider-Man #5 actually is attributed to laundry day in the comic, but it seems to me like a big deal wouldn't have been made of it in issue #5 if laundry day had already forced Hawkeye to resume the old costume in issue #1.

This isn't helping, is it?
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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by JephYork » Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:05 pm

Not really, no. It looks like none of the clues from Wolverine #16 are definitive ones. That stinks.

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Paul Bourcier » Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:25 am

Just one more comment about Hawkeye -- the appearance of his old costume in Wolverine #16 makes sense, given that Avengers Academy #22 (arguably the earliest actual chronological appearance of the new costume) must occur after Schism (Scott refers to Logan moving students to Westchester in Avengers Academy #22), and Schism occurs after Wolverine #16. But that still doesn't help.

Okay, so to recap: the end of Wolverine #16 leads directly into Schism, so that last bit must occur after Fear Itself since Schism is after Fear Itself. There's a likely gap in Wolverine #16, and we need to determine how long that gap is. Is it a longer gap, placing Wolverine #14-15 and most of #16 before Fear Itself? Or is it a shorter gap, placing those issues after Thor is resurrected sometime after Fear Itself?

So far, clues appear ambiguous. The appearances of classic Cap and Puck suggest placement after Fear Itself. The appearance of Juggernaut Colossus suggests placement before Fear Itself. Other clues are inconclusive.

Can we attribute those panels of Wolverine fighting alongside the Avengers and X-Men in the gap in Wolverine #16 to specific adventures chronicled elsewhere? We'll need to place those panels somewhere too. Oy. Jeph, would it help to post scans from that issue?
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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Jason Doty » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:34 am

Hey Jeph,

After looking at the Wolverine issues again, I'm now leaning more toward after Fear Itself for this arc. After issue 8, Wolverine goes for revenge starting with Mystique, takes it in issue 9 and gets the info he needs to find the Red Right Hand.

Next you could place all of his appearances including Fear Itself, because he is acting characteristically normal. The whole Thor issue can be resolved. (Wolverine hasn't learned the lesson of what his haste could cost him)

After all these adventures he resumes his revenge on the Red Right Hand, issues 10-16 (p.1-?), then whatever adventures, because Wolverine returns to somewhat normal, then Prelude to Schism, the last page of 16, then Schism where Wolverine has his change of heart about the roll of children and splits up the X-Men. This then leads into him getting the dough to build the school in the next couple of issues.

All the way up to Schism, Colossus was drawn inconsistently in many issues, so an assumption could be made that the process of him becoming more Juggernautish happened over time, with no need for art errors anywhere.

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