Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by JephYork » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:33 am

I honestly have no idea what this post means.

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Jason Doty » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:13 am

Alright,

You were debating whether this arc comes before or after Fear Itself. So, I looked back at the issues and believe they are after Fear Itself. The books themselves seem to have conflicting character appearances. (Captain America, Colossus, Thor)

So I started with issue 8 in which at the very end Wolverine leaves to extract his revenge on those who sent him to hell. In issue 9, he kills Mystique who tells him where to find the Red Right Hand at the same time as Maverick.

O.k, So with the next arc that is in question, Does Wolverine go immediately to take them out (before Fear Itself) or does some time pass (after Fear Itself)?

With conflicting character appearances in the books, I would suggest after, because in other titles that have Wolverine appearances, he is acting characteristically normal.

In the arc 10-16, Wolverine rampages his way through the Red Right Hand, unknowing to him, killing his children, then quits being Wolverine, then returns. (all which change his perspective, leading up to X-Men Schism)

As for the conflicting Characters in the last issue. If it is after Fear Itself, Captain America is o.k, as is Thor (so long as his adventures in other titles conclude and he returns), and as for Colossus, I think that he was also shown in other books after Fear Itself where he did not look Juggernautish, so I believe that an assumption could be made, with out saying all out art mistake, that the process happened over time after the initial change in Fear Itself issues of Uncanny.

So my suggestion for were to place this arc.

W4 8-9 (before Fear Itself)
Fear itself titles and anywhere else you believed he appeared.
W4 10-16 (p.1-17)
W4 16 (p.18 panels 1,3,5)
Intertwine W4 16 (p.18 panels 2,4) with wherever you believed he appeared at this time.
X-Men: Prelude to Schism limited series
W4 16 (p.18 panel 6)-pg.19
X-Men: Schism limited series

Hopefully that is a little more clear.

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by JephYork » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:07 am

Okay, I guess I understand the process you're using now -- but I have to say that I find it very vague, and it does nothing at all to fill me with confidence that it's the right way to deduce chronologies.

"Wolverine acts characteristically normal in all other appearances"? Well, yeah, of course he does -- he suffers a big trauma in W #14, then works through it and gets over it in W #15-16. His reaction to killing the Mongrels is entirely self-contained within Jason Aaron's arc. In all other appearances in all other books, it's business as usual.

This, to me, is a non-clue. Like before when you said that "Magneto goes into space and then comes back" ... this tells us NOTHING except that the story can't occur in the middle of that other story. I don't think it's relevant.
Does Wolverine go immediately to take them out (before Fear Itself) or does some time pass (after Fear Itself)?
No, in either case, he doesn't "immediately" go and attack the RRH. It's not an option. Why? Because Kitty Pryde is in her power-controlling spacesuit in W #6-8, and she's out of it in W #16. So obviously the story where she gets her power back under control must happen between the two halves of Wolvie's story. And since Wolverine *appears in* that story -- then he must definitely have taken a break between killing Mystique and attacking the RRH.

Noticing clues like this, IMO, is a much more definitive and trustworthy way to chronologize than this "well, his mood in these other books seems normal" business...

Does your entire "hashing out X-Men" chronology thread use that logic? :?
as for Colossus, I think that he was also shown in other books after Fear Itself where he did not look Juggernautish, so I believe that an assumption could be made, with out saying all out art mistake, that the process happened over time after the initial change in Fear Itself issues of Uncanny.
But it didn't. Immediately upon getting the power, he's bald when de-powered, and has a Juggy helmet and "brass knuckles" when he's powered up.

Let's not try to link two unrelated art mistakes together as a "chronology clue", when the books didn't intend them that way. They're art errors -- that's an acceptable answer. It happens.

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Jason Doty » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:56 pm

Hey Jeph,
"Wolverine acts characteristically normal in all other appearances"? Well, yeah, of course he does -- he suffers a big trauma in W #14, then works through it and gets over it in W #15-16. His reaction to killing the Mongrels is entirely self-contained within Jason Aaron's arc.
I wouldn't go as far as a non-clue. This is the start of a change of direction for the character.

Wolverine is manipulated by his own nature into killing his own offspring, quits being Wolverine, saves some children while exiling himself, regains purpose, has a falling out in Schism over children, and then starts a school, which is evidence when taken together of how far or close to place this said arc. I believe they were all written by Jason Aaron, so not completely self contained or a complete non-clue.
Does your entire "hashing out X-Men" chronology thread use that logic? :?
First, that thread is a collaborative project with everyone who has participated in it and meant to rough out placement. While I did use the same logic as you in putting a break between the two arcs because of Kitty, I now believe, that gap is just slightly furthered by the direction the writer of Wolverine has gone with. (Questioning how someone comes to a different conclusion then yourself does not mean their logic is flawed, if that is what you're suggesting by this comment)

You yourself said "It looks like none of the clues from Wolverine #16 are definitive ones." So in trying to be helpful, I looked outside the box.

As for the Colossus thing, I agree with you on the art error though, these things do happen.

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Paul Bourcier » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:31 am

Okay, this week I bought a copy of Wolverine #16 to check things out. Here are my notes:

Captain America -- definitely classic, definitely Steve Rogers -- Cap notes that Logan is "a soldier," and it's more likely such a comment would have come from Rogers than Barnes; Rogers must appear here after he resumes the role of Cap in Fear Itself #4; Cap's shield is here, looking fine -- to my knowledge, the Uru enchantment on it from Fear Itself #7 just wasn't pursued after Fear Itself ended and the shield apears as it usually does in comics thereafter
Colossus -- looks no different that he did in X-Men: Schism, which we know occurs after Fear Itself -- not bald, not Juggernauty, same costume
Hawkeye -- in his classic costume, so he must appear here before Avengers Academy #22, which is after Fear Itself
Puck -- he must appear here after Alpha Flight v4 #2, which occurs during Fear Itself; in that issue he made his first appearance after returning from Hell
Thing -- wears his Future Foundation uniform, so after FF #2, but that issue occurs before Fear Itself anyway
Thor -- there he is, alive and well, but not necessarily included as an active member of the Avengers, just part of a group of people who care for Logan
Wolverine -- appears on page 20 shot full of arrows on Utopia, and that's exactly how he appears at the start of X-Men: Schism #1, so yes, that page happens immediately before Schism #1 with a gap between pages 18 and 20. And that gap doesn't need to be long at all. (How did he get shot full of arrows?)

So, I think Wolverine #14-16 is firmly situated between Fear Itself and Schism. More specifically, since Thor is present, these issues must occur after Thor's return in Mighty Thor #12. The All-Mother welcome Thor back in Mighty Thor #13 (likely the day after issue #12), and Mighty Thor #14-17 occur the day after that. Thus, I'd place Wolverine #14-16 between Mighty Thor #17 and Schism.

The two panels on page 19 that show Logan fighting alongside Avengers Cap and Iron Man and with X-Men Magneto, Colossus, Cyclops, and Emma may not provide documentation of actual events. Within the context these panels are presented, they could easily be interpreted as abstract mental pictures conjured by Logan's mind to represent his camaraderie with his teammates.

I'm trying to figure out whether the content in Wolverine #16 is chronologically presented. Do Melita's interviews with the heroes occur before they all find Logan in the woods? And does her interview with Logan (page 19) occur between pages 18 and 20? (Jason's page notations are incorrect.)
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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Jason Doty » Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:07 am

Paul, you mean Wolverine 10-16, rather than 14-16. 10 through 14 are Wolverine rampaging through the compound to exact his revenge.

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Paul Bourcier » Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:04 pm

Sure, Wolverine v4 #10-16.
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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by JephYork » Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:05 pm

Paul Bourcier wrote:Puck -- he must appear here after Alpha Flight v4 #2, which occurs during Fear Itself; in that issue he made his first appearance after returning from Hell
Not necessarily! Alpha Flight v4 #2 is just where Alpha Flight learns that Puck's back -- he's been back for an indeterminate amount of time. Melita could have interviewed him *before* he got locked up in that AF4 issue.

However, Cap's line about Wolverine being "a soldier" -- yes, I agree that's definitely Steve talking, not Bucky. So that pretty much settles it.
Jason Doty wrote:This is the start of a change of direction for the character.
Right, but it's not the type of "change of direction" that can be quantifiably measured during his appearances in other books. If Wolverine appears in New Avengers, wherein he fights a bad guy with his claws, is that "old Wolverine" before his change of direction, or "new Wolverine" with a compassion for children? Who can tell? Nobody, that's who, unless he actually mentions out loud that he killed his kids or that he runs a school.

It's a "non-clue" in that you can't look at New Avengers and say "hmm, Wolverine seems to be acting normally. Better place this issue before his change of direction!"
Wolverine is manipulated by his own nature into killing his own offspring, quits being Wolverine, saves some children while exiling himself, regains purpose...
Yes, okay, all of which take place within a self-contained storyline with no gaps.
...has a falling out in Schism over children, and then starts a school, which is evidence when taken together of how far or close to place this said arc.
What? No it isn't. He could have killed his kids/regained purpose, THEN made seventeen truckloads of other appearances wherein he "acts normally", THEN had a falling-out/started a school. Two events happening in succession does NOT mean that they need to happen in QUICK succession.
I believe they were all written by Jason Aaron, so not completely self contained or a complete non-clue.
They're a complete non-clue, trust me. All it tells us that Schism (where he's sensitive about kids) happens sometime after W #16 (where he becomes sensitive about kids). And the final page of W #16 tells us that ANYWAY.
Questioning how someone comes to a different conclusion then yourself does not mean their logic is flawed, if that is what you're suggesting by this comment
And just because I think your logic is flawed, doesn't mean that I'm annoyed because your conclusions are different than mine!

Jason, I hadn't even COME to a conclusion until this very post. I wasn't being huffy and saying that since you came to a "different conclusion" than me, then therefore your logic "must be" flawed. This wasn't injured pride talking.

I'm looking at the methods you detailed, and stating flat-out that I think your logic and your methodology is flawed. Even if you came to the SAME conclusion I did (and it looks like you did, actually!), I would still say it. I think the way you came to your conclusion is vague, ill-thought-out, fuzzy and based on nebulous concepts like "he seems to be acting normal". I think it's untrustworthy and full of holes, and I don't think it holds up under any kind of scrutiny. You don't walk slowly through a situation and note things along the way -- you just sweep everything into a big generalization. It makes me uncomfortable.

Also, you don't back up your statements. You say "well, I think Colossus appeared normally after Fear Itself." Okay -- WHERE? If you want me to take your points seriously, you need to back them up with issue numbers, references and logical conclusions. Not just "well I think I seem to remember seeing him maybe looking normal elsewhere, so we can probably just assume that his transformation wasn't immediate." How am I supposed to build a chronological order of events based on THAT?

You said that Steve Rogers appeared in the Cap suit three times before Fear Itself. You then listed two appearances, one of which is the issue in question and the other of which is widely acknowledged as an error. I asked what the third one was -- you never replied.

Should I have taken THAT statement at face value? "Okay doke, I guess Steve sometimes appeared as Cap before Fear Itself, even though I don't actually know where these appearances happened. So I'll just go ahead and place this before Fear Itself too, and maybe later I'll try to synch it up with those other Steve-as-Cap appearancs that I heard about, wherever those are."

Knowing what we know now -- that placement would have been wrong.

And what was the point of bringing up that Magneto went into space and then came back?

Look at Paul's post from yesterday. Look how he goes through each clue, detailing what it means and therefore what other books it logically has to be before/after.

Look at the difference between Paul's post, and your posts in this thread, which are full of vague sweeping statements like "he acts normal" or "he has a change of direction" -- and full of vague and non-backed-up assertations that all start with "I think", like "I think Steve appeared as Cap before FI" and "I think Colossus appeared without his Juggernaut look after FI".

I prefer, and trust, Paul's method. I'm sorry, but I don't trust yours.

-Jeph!

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Jason Doty » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:30 pm

Alright,

Lets take this piece by piece.

Jeph! wrote
Not necessarily! Alpha Flight v4 #2 is just where Alpha Flight learns that Puck's back -- he's been back for an indeterminate amount of time. Melita could have interviewed him *before* he got locked up in that AF4 issue.
I don't agree with this, how would Melita know he's alive. The last we saw Puck was in the "Wolverine Goes to Hell" arc gaining Satan's sword. The next time we see him in Alpha Flight v4, just confirms he escaped. Which leads me to believe that the issues in Alpha Flight v4 no.5-on, which feature Wolverine, also take place before this Wolverine arc where he would know that Puck has returned.

Also the fact that she interviewed Hellstorm before he betrayed the heroes in Fear Itself:The Fearless would suggest to me that this Wolverine arc happens before that also (Wolverine appears in that series too).

Jeph! wrote
It's a "non-clue" in that you can't look at New Avengers and say "hmm, Wolverine seems to be acting normally. Better place this issue before his change of direction!"
We'll just have to disagree on that topic, in lieu of conflicting evidence or lack of it, taking a macro approach can help narrow down an area to focus on.

Jeph! wrote
What? No it isn't. He could have killed his kids/regained purpose, THEN made seventeen truckloads of other appearances wherein he "acts normally", THEN had a falling-out/started a school. Two events happening in succession does NOT mean that they need to happen in QUICK succession.
I'm pretty sure I agreed with your logic on that and left an opening for those truckload of appearances in my earlier post, stating that "whatever else you thought fits here line." It's still in my opinion that they would still be relatively close based on the direction of the series.

Jeph! wrote
I'm looking at the methods you detailed, and stating flat-out that I think your logic and your methodology is flawed.
Yeah, I realize that you found my logic vague and unhelpful to you, but that by no means it might not be helpful to others or insight further investigation. I don't pretend to "know it all," which is why I bother to debate here in the first place. I will acknowledge that I found your "hashing out the X-Men" thread comment to be a personal attack on me. When in truth, It was a collaborative effort in which I repeatedly ask for assistance from others.

I also think that you make an assumption that I only use one method in deducing character placement, when it's just only one tool I could possibly use.

Jeph! wrote
Also, you don't back up your statements. You say "well, I think Colossus appeared normally after Fear Itself." Okay -- WHERE? If you want me to take your points seriously, you need to back them up with issue numbers, references and logical conclusions. Not just "well I think I seem to remember seeing him maybe looking normal elsewhere, so we can probably just assume that his transformation wasn't immediate." How am I supposed to build a chronological order of events based on THAT?
The Colossus issue came up long ago in regards to Avengers: Children Crusade (which no one has come out and placed, which will be decided by which side of Fear Itself it lands on because of Doom), X-Men: Prelude to Schism, and X-Men: Schism. I thought you already knew of the Colossus errors, since they would be considered "art errors"

I also made the assumption that since you index professionally, that you are already working with a rough outline, and already know the many issues involved. I'll try and be more precise in the future.

Jeph! wrote
You said that Steve Rogers appeared in the Cap suit three times before Fear Itself. You then listed two appearances, one of which is the issue in question and the other of which is widely acknowledged as an error. I asked what the third one was -- you never replied.
You are correct, I did not reply, because I made a mistake and did assume Cap was in the wrong outfit in Avenging Spider-Man.

Jeph! wrote,
And what was the point of bringing up that Magneto went into space and then came back?
That had to do with the an article I read where the writer of Legacy did this to keep his characters out of Schism, which was one long arc when connected to "Lost Legions," but those characters also showed up in Schism. After reviewing the Wolverine issues I realized that they had no bearing on where I believed this arc to be placed now, because Magneto and crew would have to be back before Fear Itself.

I also like Paul's method and value his opinion, I'm glad you came to your conclusion and look forward to reading it in the next Index. While, I'm a little disappointed that you don't find value in my method (I thought it was pretty clever considering the evidence of the book), I am glad it brought out enough of the contributors to get us all in the same direction. Until next time.

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:20 am

Jason Doty wrote:
Also the fact that she interviewed Hellstorm before he betrayed the heroes in Fear Itself:The Fearless would suggest to me that this Wolverine arc happens before that also (Wolverine appears in that series too).
Where is this established as "fact?" Don't base any assumptions on Hellstorm. He's been showing up as both ally and adversary. Hellstorm is a good guy in JIM 633-635, which occur after Fear Itself. Hellstorm's most recent ally appearance was in New Avengers v2 #31-34, in which Carol Danvers appears as "Captain Marvel," so this is definitely after Fear Itself. And heck, Hellstorm was even interviewed as a possible teacher at the Jean Grey School in W&X 19!

As Jeph's pointed out, you appear to make assertions of fact based on faulty assumptions. Please spell out your observations and don't assert that something is factual until you have absolute evidence to back it up.
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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Jason Doty » Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:41 am

I'm having trouble trying to articulate all of the issues involved.

I'm pretty sure that Fear Itself: The Fearless limited comes on the heels of Fear Itself, as does the Thor story line, Alpha Flight v4. All of which would have a direct bearing on the characters that appear in the last issue of the Wolverine arc.

All of these issues you've named come much later, so I'm concerning my focus on the issues that came out at that time. Why Hellstorm is portrayed inconsistently after the betrayal have yet to be explained.

I try and and use disclaimers such as "suggest to me," that it is my opinion. I'll try and chose my words more clearly and not use definitive statements. You are correct that I expressed it as a fact as to when the interviews happen, which may be still open to interpretation.

I believe that Melita interviewed the heroes prior to the good majority of them being featured in picking Wolverine up in the wilderness in Wolverine v4 #16.

Since Puck was one of the characters interviewed, I believe that she would have to know that he returned, which I don't believe she would until after Wolverine would know in those issues of Alpha Flight v4, which feature Wolverine.

Hellstorm is also interviewed and he did recently aid Melita while Wolverine was possessed in "the "Wolverine vs. the X-Men" arc.

I believe that the "Fear Itself: The Fearless" limited comes in close proximity to the actual event of Fear Itself. In that series Hellstorm betrays the heroes, Wolverine included. This leads me to believe that that interview happened prior to the betrayal. Which would make the Wolverine arc come before "Fear Itself: The Fearless."

While, you have pointed out that Hellstorm has appeared in many issues that I'm pretty sure happen after Fear Itself: The Fearless portrayed differently. Those issues have not been resolved.

So as a jumping off point, maybe others might consider that the order of events could be

Fear Itself
the Thor issues you explained, with Alpha Flight v4 #5-8 happening around the same time
Wolverine v4 10-16 (p-1-?)
Fear Itself: The Fearless

I'm not suggesting this to be antagonistic, just a jumping off point for the best possible placement for the arc in question.

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:00 pm

Hellstorm betrays his allies in Fear Itself: the Fearless #1-12. (after Fear Itself)

Hellstorm betrays his allies in Venom #13.1-13.4. (published the month before Avengers vs. X-Men #0)

Hellstorm is considered for a teching position at the Jean Grey school in Wolverine & the X-Men #19. (after Avengers vs. X-Men)

So Hellstorm betrays his allies twice. His allies must have learned to trust him again (after Fearless), and he betrayed them AGAIN (in Venom). Then, he must have been trusted AGAIN, because he was considered for a position at the Jean Grey school (W&X 19).

I don't think we can base a universe-wide chronology on Hellstorm.
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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:36 pm

Jason wrote:
I believe that the "Fear Itself: The Fearless" limited comes in close proximity to the actual event of Fear Itself. In that series Hellstorm betrays the heroes, Wolverine included. This leads me to believe that that interview happened prior to the betrayal. Which would make the Wolverine arc come before "Fear Itself: The Fearless."
While, you have pointed out that Hellstorm has appeared in many issues that I'm pretty sure happen after Fear Itself: The Fearless portrayed differently. Those issues have not been resolved.
Exactamundo. Unresolved issues. Yet, you're basing a conclusion on them.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that this Wolverine arc *must* occur before The Fearless. Hellstrorm's a non-issue for two reasons:

1) He has been shown to be a trusted ally in stories set long after Fear Itself. Would you argue that The Fearless must occur after W&X 19? After all, why would the Jean Grey School interview a man who proved to be a traitor in The Fearless? Such an argument just couldn't stand -- too much water goes under the bridge between Fear Itself and W&X 19, and you note (correctly) that The Fearless should occur shortly after Fear Itself. So if W&X 19 can occur after The Fearless, why can't this Wolverine arc?

2) For all we know, the only information Melita had about Hellstorm was that he helped her. She may have no knowledge of his recent actions or behavior in comics in which she does not herself appear.

I'm afraid you're constructing a narrative based on narrow assumptions, then suggesting placement based on your narrative.
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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Jason Doty » Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:27 pm

Paul wrote
He has been shown to be a trusted ally in stories set long after Fear Itself. Would you argue that The Fearless must occur after W&X 19? After all, why would the Jean Grey School interview a man who proved to be a traitor in The Fearless? Such an argument just couldn't stand -- too much water goes under the bridge between Fear Itself and W&X 19, and you note (correctly) that The Fearless should occur shortly after Fear Itself. So if W&X 19 can occur after The Fearless, why can't this Wolverine arc?
No, I'm just concerned with what comes between Fear Itself and Schism, and the best placement of this arc.

I'm pretty sure you believe that this Wolverine arc happens between Fear Itself and Schism? Am I correct?

I'm sure I believe that I Fear Itself: The Fearless limited happens between Fear Itself and Schism? You'll have to let me know if you believe the same.

All of the appearances with Hellstorm that come are more than likely after Schism (and if I miss some, please point them out)

Hellstorm aids Loki (who is not considered a hero, or anyone he betrayed) in Journey Into Mystery #633-635 (This arc is followed by the Exiled storyline which is after Schism because of the New Mutants, so this title could be placed on either side
depending on further clues. my guess is before.)

Hellstorm betrays his allies in Venom #13.1-13.4. (This title also featured X-23, which I personally believe happens between the end of her title and her joining Avengers Academy, so after Schism)

Hellstorm fights against Venom in Venom v2 #23-25 (after Schism because of X-23 appearance in earlier issue)

Hellstorm is considered for a teaching position at the Jean Grey school in Wolverine & the X-Men #19. (after Avengers vs. X-Men)

Hellstorm aids the Avengers in New Avengers v2 #31-34 (after Avengers vs. X-Men)

All of these appearances show me that Hellstorm is doing what serves himself.

So my question to you is in placing this arc is, how would you suggest setting up the Wolverine appearances based on no break in the arc in his book and the interviews that Melita holds, which you may or not believe that happen before the heroes pick up Wolverine in the wilderness? What evidence are you using?

Paul wrote
For all we know, the only information Melita had about Hellstorm was that he helped her. She may have no knowledge of his recent actions or behavior in comics in which she does not herself appear.
You are correct about this, or couldn't the opposite also be true since we don't know either way? I'm not trying to create something. I just want to focus on the books presented between Fear Itself and Schism and the best fit for the issues presented.

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by JephYork » Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:49 pm

What?

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit smoking.

Here's what Paul is saying: the Hellstorm appearance is W #16 isn't a clue either way. It either happens before Fearless, or after Fearless. There's no evidence of either one. He's not acting like a "hero" or a "villain", and none of the other heroes see him or interact with him.

Melita either contacted a hero that everyone loves, and asked him for an interview -- or she contacted a villain that everyone hates, and asked him for an interview. She's a reporter, and she's met him before. I don't think she'd pass up interviewing him just because the Avengers were pissed off at him this week.

There are, simply, no clues here.

So it's not something to be focused on, or used when determining relative placements of the two arcs.

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