Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself
Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:33 am
I honestly have no idea what this post means.
-Jeph!
-Jeph!
What Comes Next?
http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/
http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=6860
No, in either case, he doesn't "immediately" go and attack the RRH. It's not an option. Why? Because Kitty Pryde is in her power-controlling spacesuit in W #6-8, and she's out of it in W #16. So obviously the story where she gets her power back under control must happen between the two halves of Wolvie's story. And since Wolverine *appears in* that story -- then he must definitely have taken a break between killing Mystique and attacking the RRH.Does Wolverine go immediately to take them out (before Fear Itself) or does some time pass (after Fear Itself)?
But it didn't. Immediately upon getting the power, he's bald when de-powered, and has a Juggy helmet and "brass knuckles" when he's powered up.as for Colossus, I think that he was also shown in other books after Fear Itself where he did not look Juggernautish, so I believe that an assumption could be made, with out saying all out art mistake, that the process happened over time after the initial change in Fear Itself issues of Uncanny.
I wouldn't go as far as a non-clue. This is the start of a change of direction for the character."Wolverine acts characteristically normal in all other appearances"? Well, yeah, of course he does -- he suffers a big trauma in W #14, then works through it and gets over it in W #15-16. His reaction to killing the Mongrels is entirely self-contained within Jason Aaron's arc.
First, that thread is a collaborative project with everyone who has participated in it and meant to rough out placement. While I did use the same logic as you in putting a break between the two arcs because of Kitty, I now believe, that gap is just slightly furthered by the direction the writer of Wolverine has gone with. (Questioning how someone comes to a different conclusion then yourself does not mean their logic is flawed, if that is what you're suggesting by this comment)Does your entire "hashing out X-Men" chronology thread use that logic?
Not necessarily! Alpha Flight v4 #2 is just where Alpha Flight learns that Puck's back -- he's been back for an indeterminate amount of time. Melita could have interviewed him *before* he got locked up in that AF4 issue.Paul Bourcier wrote:Puck -- he must appear here after Alpha Flight v4 #2, which occurs during Fear Itself; in that issue he made his first appearance after returning from Hell
Right, but it's not the type of "change of direction" that can be quantifiably measured during his appearances in other books. If Wolverine appears in New Avengers, wherein he fights a bad guy with his claws, is that "old Wolverine" before his change of direction, or "new Wolverine" with a compassion for children? Who can tell? Nobody, that's who, unless he actually mentions out loud that he killed his kids or that he runs a school.Jason Doty wrote:This is the start of a change of direction for the character.
Yes, okay, all of which take place within a self-contained storyline with no gaps.Wolverine is manipulated by his own nature into killing his own offspring, quits being Wolverine, saves some children while exiling himself, regains purpose...
What? No it isn't. He could have killed his kids/regained purpose, THEN made seventeen truckloads of other appearances wherein he "acts normally", THEN had a falling-out/started a school. Two events happening in succession does NOT mean that they need to happen in QUICK succession....has a falling out in Schism over children, and then starts a school, which is evidence when taken together of how far or close to place this said arc.
They're a complete non-clue, trust me. All it tells us that Schism (where he's sensitive about kids) happens sometime after W #16 (where he becomes sensitive about kids). And the final page of W #16 tells us that ANYWAY.I believe they were all written by Jason Aaron, so not completely self contained or a complete non-clue.
And just because I think your logic is flawed, doesn't mean that I'm annoyed because your conclusions are different than mine!Questioning how someone comes to a different conclusion then yourself does not mean their logic is flawed, if that is what you're suggesting by this comment
I don't agree with this, how would Melita know he's alive. The last we saw Puck was in the "Wolverine Goes to Hell" arc gaining Satan's sword. The next time we see him in Alpha Flight v4, just confirms he escaped. Which leads me to believe that the issues in Alpha Flight v4 no.5-on, which feature Wolverine, also take place before this Wolverine arc where he would know that Puck has returned.Not necessarily! Alpha Flight v4 #2 is just where Alpha Flight learns that Puck's back -- he's been back for an indeterminate amount of time. Melita could have interviewed him *before* he got locked up in that AF4 issue.
We'll just have to disagree on that topic, in lieu of conflicting evidence or lack of it, taking a macro approach can help narrow down an area to focus on.It's a "non-clue" in that you can't look at New Avengers and say "hmm, Wolverine seems to be acting normally. Better place this issue before his change of direction!"
I'm pretty sure I agreed with your logic on that and left an opening for those truckload of appearances in my earlier post, stating that "whatever else you thought fits here line." It's still in my opinion that they would still be relatively close based on the direction of the series.What? No it isn't. He could have killed his kids/regained purpose, THEN made seventeen truckloads of other appearances wherein he "acts normally", THEN had a falling-out/started a school. Two events happening in succession does NOT mean that they need to happen in QUICK succession.
Yeah, I realize that you found my logic vague and unhelpful to you, but that by no means it might not be helpful to others or insight further investigation. I don't pretend to "know it all," which is why I bother to debate here in the first place. I will acknowledge that I found your "hashing out the X-Men" thread comment to be a personal attack on me. When in truth, It was a collaborative effort in which I repeatedly ask for assistance from others.I'm looking at the methods you detailed, and stating flat-out that I think your logic and your methodology is flawed.
The Colossus issue came up long ago in regards to Avengers: Children Crusade (which no one has come out and placed, which will be decided by which side of Fear Itself it lands on because of Doom), X-Men: Prelude to Schism, and X-Men: Schism. I thought you already knew of the Colossus errors, since they would be considered "art errors"Also, you don't back up your statements. You say "well, I think Colossus appeared normally after Fear Itself." Okay -- WHERE? If you want me to take your points seriously, you need to back them up with issue numbers, references and logical conclusions. Not just "well I think I seem to remember seeing him maybe looking normal elsewhere, so we can probably just assume that his transformation wasn't immediate." How am I supposed to build a chronological order of events based on THAT?
You are correct, I did not reply, because I made a mistake and did assume Cap was in the wrong outfit in Avenging Spider-Man.You said that Steve Rogers appeared in the Cap suit three times before Fear Itself. You then listed two appearances, one of which is the issue in question and the other of which is widely acknowledged as an error. I asked what the third one was -- you never replied.
That had to do with the an article I read where the writer of Legacy did this to keep his characters out of Schism, which was one long arc when connected to "Lost Legions," but those characters also showed up in Schism. After reviewing the Wolverine issues I realized that they had no bearing on where I believed this arc to be placed now, because Magneto and crew would have to be back before Fear Itself.And what was the point of bringing up that Magneto went into space and then came back?
Where is this established as "fact?" Don't base any assumptions on Hellstorm. He's been showing up as both ally and adversary. Hellstorm is a good guy in JIM 633-635, which occur after Fear Itself. Hellstorm's most recent ally appearance was in New Avengers v2 #31-34, in which Carol Danvers appears as "Captain Marvel," so this is definitely after Fear Itself. And heck, Hellstorm was even interviewed as a possible teacher at the Jean Grey School in W&X 19!Also the fact that she interviewed Hellstorm before he betrayed the heroes in Fear Itself:The Fearless would suggest to me that this Wolverine arc happens before that also (Wolverine appears in that series too).
Exactamundo. Unresolved issues. Yet, you're basing a conclusion on them.I believe that the "Fear Itself: The Fearless" limited comes in close proximity to the actual event of Fear Itself. In that series Hellstorm betrays the heroes, Wolverine included. This leads me to believe that that interview happened prior to the betrayal. Which would make the Wolverine arc come before "Fear Itself: The Fearless."
While, you have pointed out that Hellstorm has appeared in many issues that I'm pretty sure happen after Fear Itself: The Fearless portrayed differently. Those issues have not been resolved.
No, I'm just concerned with what comes between Fear Itself and Schism, and the best placement of this arc.He has been shown to be a trusted ally in stories set long after Fear Itself. Would you argue that The Fearless must occur after W&X 19? After all, why would the Jean Grey School interview a man who proved to be a traitor in The Fearless? Such an argument just couldn't stand -- too much water goes under the bridge between Fear Itself and W&X 19, and you note (correctly) that The Fearless should occur shortly after Fear Itself. So if W&X 19 can occur after The Fearless, why can't this Wolverine arc?
You are correct about this, or couldn't the opposite also be true since we don't know either way? I'm not trying to create something. I just want to focus on the books presented between Fear Itself and Schism and the best fit for the issues presented.For all we know, the only information Melita had about Hellstorm was that he helped her. She may have no knowledge of his recent actions or behavior in comics in which she does not herself appear.