DOCTOR DOOM

[Col_Fury]

Dr. Doom’s been all over the place lately, hasn’t he?

Starting with where the MCP currently leaves off, adding in the before and after appearances from the Avengers Index and Thor Index, and adding in the appearances that extend from that, we end up with this (with notes):

DOCTOR DOOM/VICTOR VON DOOM
…
PEN:REL 4
FNSM 24
[FF 558-FB]
[FF 557]
[FF 558]
[FF 559]
[FF 560]
[FF 561]
[FF 562] (imprisoned before Secret Invasion)
[SECINV:DR 1 (1 - 7)]
[SECINV 8 (24)
[SECINV 8 (25 - 26)] ~ [SECINV:DR 1 (8)] ~ [DARKA 1 (1 - 2)] ~ UX@2 2 (11)
[SECINV:DR 1 (9 - 27)]
UX@2 2 (12)
[DR:CABAL 1]
[DARKA 1-FB] (after Secret Invasion)
[DARKA 2]
[DARKA 3]
[DARKA 4]
[FF 566] (directly references Dark Avengers #1-4)
[FF 567]
[FF 568-FB]
[FF 569-FB]
[FF 562] (time travel)
[FF 563]
[FF 566]
[FF 567]
[FF 568]
[FF 569]
[CB&MI13 10]
[CB&MI13@ 1]
[CB&MI13 14] (from Thor Index)
[DR:CABAL 1/5]
T 600
T 601
T 602
[DR:HOOD 2] (from Thor Index)
[MA 24] (from Avengers Index)
NA 53
[DARKA 6] (from Avengers Index)
[DR:MM 1/2] (aftermath of Dark Avengers #6)
[BP5 1-FB]
[BP5 2-FB]
UTOPIA
CA:REBORN 4
[DRV 1] (from Captain America Index)
[DRV 3]
[DRV 4]
[DRV 5]
[BP5 9] (from Uncanny X-Men Index)
[BP5 10]
[BP5 11]
[BP5 12]
T 603
T:GSFINALE
T 604
T 605
T 606
[DOOMWAR 1]
[DOOMWAR 2]
[DOOMWAR 3]
[DOOMWAR 4]
[DOOMWAR 5]
[DOOMWAR 6] (Thor Index says before T 603 but must occur after T 606 because of Tony Stark; the last page occurs after Siege)
[H2 606] (from Thor Index)
[H2 607]
[H4 20]
[H2 608]
[H4 22]
[H2 609] (Doom is brain damaged)
[SIEGE:CABAL-VO] ~ [A: I 30-BTS] (Thor’s chronology says Siege happens after WWHulks)
[FF 583] (directly references WWHulks, must happen after Siege & before Fear Itself)
[FF 588]
[F.F. 1] (before Fear Itself; this is where the FF get the new uniforms they’re wearing in Fear Itself)
[F.F. 2]
[F.F. 3]
[F.F. 4]
[F.F. 5]
[F.F. 8]
[F.F. 9]
[F.F. 10] (Steve Rogers appears as Captain America, so after Fear Itself)
[FF 600]
[F.F. 12]
[F.F. 13]
[F.F. 14]
[F.F. 16] (Doom is exiled; no appearances for him between this issue & FF 611)
[FF 611-FB]
[FF 611]

Here are the rest of Dr. Doom’s appearances that I can find (I’m not caught up on my reading, so I haven’t read most of these) :

X-Factor #201-202 (March-April 2010)
-What happens here?

Strange #4 (April 2010)
-A cameo appearance by Doom. Strange has to heal Eternity so magic will work correctly again; Strange asks several magic users not to do anything for an hour.

X-Force #25 (May 2010)
-What happens here?

Girl Comics #2/3 (July 2010)
-What happens here?

Deadpool #1000/6 (October 2010)
-What happens here?

Namor: the First Mutant #7-9 (March-May 2011)
-What happens here? Is Doom’s tunic green or white?

X-Men #16-19 (September-December 2011)
-Doom is a member of the Future Foundation and is going on missions with them. After Fear Itself because of Ghost Rider.

Avengers: Children’s Crusade #2-9 (November 2010-May 2012)
-The Captain America Index says this happens shortly after Siege and before Chaos War, but that’s wrong. Children’s Crusade has to happen after Chaos War because Stature appears in Chaos War, but dies in Children’s Crusade. Also, the bulk of Children’s Crusade happens before the Human Torch “dies”… but after Siege and before Human Torch “dies” is while Doom has brain damage.

Winter Soldier #1-5 (April-July 2012)
-What happens here? Is Doom’s tunic green or white? Published during Doom’s exile.

Dark Avengers #176-178 (August-September 2012)
-What happens here? Is Doom’s tunic green or white? Published during Doom’s exile.

Hulk #7 (June 2012)
Hulk #7.1 (July 2012)
Hulk #13 (November 2012)
Hulk #15 (December 2012)
-What happens here? Is Doom’s tunic green or white? Published during Doom’s exile.

There has to be a break in the early F.F. issues to accommodate the X-Men #16-19 appearances (and Fear Itself, not that Doom appears in that crossover), but where is it? And can we use that break to shove in some other stuff?

Also:
Vengeance #1-6 (September 2011-February 2012)
-No Doom appearance, but it takes place “three months” after Fear Itself, and Kristoff is running Latveria. Published before Doom’s exile.

Daredevil #14-16 (August-October 2012)
-No Doom appearance, but Daredevil is a member of the Avengers (so after Fear Itself) and Doom is “gone.” Published during Doom’s exile.

Thoughts?

[Jason Doty]

Col Fury wrote

There has to be a break in the early F.F. issues to accommodate the X-Men #16-19 appearances (and Fear Itself, not that Doom appears in that crossover), but where is it? And can we use that break to shove in some other stuff?

The only place I can see is after Doom's mind is "backed up" in FF v1 #2 and before they start their mission to stop the "bad" Reed's in FF v1 #3.

Dark Avengers #176-178 (August-September 2012)
-What happens here? Is Doom’s tunic green or white? Published during Doom’s exile.

This takes place in the past, while the Thunderbolts are time traveling, they come across Doom after he was sent to the past in Millar's run by his Master.

[Col_Fury]

Dark Avengers #176-178 (August-September 2012)
-What happens here? Is Doom’s tunic green or white? Published during Doom’s exile.

This takes place in the past, while the Thunderbolts are time traveling, they come across Doom after he was sent to the past in Millar's run by his Master.

Oh, really? OK, so around FF 569-FB, then. Neat!

There has to be a break in the early F.F. issues to accommodate the X-Men #16-19 appearances (and Fear Itself, not that Doom appears in that crossover), but where is it? And can we use that break to shove in some other stuff?

The only place I can see is after Doom's mind is "backed up" in FF v1 #2 and before they start their mission to stop the "bad" Reed's in FF v1 #3.

I've flipped through the first five issues, and here's what I see:

F.F. #1
-Spider-Man joins the Future Foundation and gets a new uniform. They decide to go fix Doom.

F.F. #2
-The Future Foundation fixes Doom. Doom reveals he'll hold up his end of the bargain he made with Valeria and help Reed defeat his counterparts, and suggests they go do that.

F.F. #3
-Doom taunts Mr. Fantastic as the Future Foundation leaves to invite a bunch of big thinking villains to a symposium on "Conquering the Mount Fantastic: How to Finally Defeat Reed Richards" in "two days." "Two days later," the gathered villains, Doom, Reed and Valeria hold a meeting to find a way to defeat the alternate Reeds. The Watcher appears.

F.F. #4
-The meeting, with the Watcher still present, is interrupted by an alarm. This sends the Future Foundation on a mision where they encounter an alternate Reed.

F.F. #5
-The Future Foundation battles the alternate Reed and Alex Power's arm is broken. Later, as the Future Foundation and the alternate Reed seperately recover (Alex's arm is still broken), the Inhumans return to Earth. This leads directly into a continuous string that ends with FF #604 & F.F. #16, where Steve Rogers is Captain America again (so after Fear Itself) and Doom is exiled. It's also spelled out that Nathaniel Richards had a very strict timetable for the events of the Inhumans returning (and battling the Kree), Johnny's return, the alternate Reeds' defeat, Galactus coming to Earth and the Celestials battling Galactus to ensure that Earth wasn't destroyed. So once the Inhuamsn arrive we really can't put any breaks into the story.

In all of that, I'm only seeing three options for a break:

1) Between F.F. #2-3, after Doom is fixed and before the Future Foundation recruits the villains (as Jason suggests). This would require us to believe that Doom was willing to wait to hold up his end of the bargain, even though he seemed eager to get it over with (of course he's eager to get it over with, he's Dr. Doom. He doesn't like owing anyone anything, let alone a Richards).

2) During F.F. #3, after the villains are invited to the symposium and before the symposium starts. This would require us to ignore the "two days" and pretend it's "two weeks" or "two months."

3) During F.F. #5, after the battle and before the Inhumans arrive. This would require us to ignore Alex's broken arm (but I'm pretty sure it's in a cast in later issues).

I'm leaning toward the first option; it only requires us to ignore an implication of time passed, instead of an explicit "two days later" or "Alex's arm is broken."

Thoughts?

[Somebody]

[DOOMWAR 1]
[DOOMWAR 2]
[DOOMWAR 3]
[DOOMWAR 4]
[DOOMWAR 5]
[DOOMWAR 6] (from Thor Index; the last page occurs after Siege)
T 603
T:GSFINALE
T 604
T 605
T 606
[H2 606] (from Thor Index)
[H2 607]
[H4 20]
[H2 608]
[H4 22]
[H2 609] (Doom is brain damaged)
[SIEGE:CABAL-VO] ~ [A: I 30-BTS] (Thor’s chronology says Siege happens after WWHulks)

Wait... how does this place Tony Stark's appearance in Doomwar? Still between IM5 24 (23) and Siege? I was under the impression that Blake/Thor's appearances in that IM5 arc were after T 606 - do you have them before T 600?

X-Factor #201-202 (March-April 2010)
-What happens here?

Franklin & Valeria hire X-Factor to look for a missing Sue. Turns out a left-over alternate Reed from Millar's arc - who turns out to be an alternate Doom-in-Reed's-body - has switched places with MU-Reed, and is nominally working with Doom (who doesn't really give a crap about him). Meanwhile, Sue's in Doom's custody just to keep her away from Reed-Doom.

Oh, and Layla Miller turns out to have been staying in Castle Doom "for the past year. Her foreknowledge has been exceptionally useful" since she dumped her memories in her past self [c. HoM] in XF3 50. Green tunic, Hitch-F4 costumes.

Hulk #7 (June 2012)
Hulk #7.1 (July 2012)
Hulk #13 (November 2012)
Hulk #15 (December 2012)
-What happens here? Is Doom’s tunic green or white? Published during Doom’s exile.

White throughout IH4, but also always based in Latveria (earlier, he cuts up Hulk's brain to stick Banner's mind in a Banner clone in a flashback to the immediate aftermath of Fear Itself). IH4 13-15 is Doombots-only, explicitly while Doom's off-world playing around with his Infinity Gauntlet. IH4 7-7.1 relate to the scooping up of Banner's Hulked-out animals from the previous arc.

[Col_Fury]

I was under the impression that Blake/Thor's appearances in that IM5 arc were after T 606

Good catch! Thor's chronology in the Thor Index says his IM5 appearances happen after T 606; since Tony Stark's Doomwar appearance has to happen after those IM5 issues, Doomwar has to happen after T 606. I fixed this above.

But now I wonder: does Doomwar #1 continue directly from Black Panther #12? Does Black Panther #9-12 need to be moved to after Thor #606 as well? I need to check on that.

Franklin & Valeria hire X-Factor to look for a missing Sue. Turns out a left-over alternate Reed from Millar's arc - who turns out to be an alternate Doom-in-Reed's-body - has switched places with MU-Reed, and is nominally working with Doom (who doesn't really give a crap about him). Meanwhile, Sue's in Doom's custody just to keep her away from Reed-Doom.

Oh, and Layla Miller turns out to have been staying in Castle Doom "for the past year. Her foreknowledge has been exceptionally useful" since she dumped her memories in her past self [c. HoM] in XF3 50. Green tunic, Hitch-F4 costumes.

So a fairly standard appearance for Doom, then.

X-Factor #201-202 were published the same months as Doctor Voodoo #4-5, Black Panther #12 & Doomwar #1, Thor #606-607, Siege #1-2 and Incredible Hulk #606-607.

If Layla has been staying at Castle Doom "for the past year," well, Castle Doom was destroyed in what, FF 566-567? Assuming he rebuilt it quickly after FF 569 and she showed up shortly after that, we should probably push this as close to WWHulks as possible to get her staying in Castle Doom for as long as we can, right? (I doubt a year passes between the first part of FF 569 and WWHulks, though) How does after Doomwar #6 and before Incredible Hulk #606 for X-Factor #201-202 sound?

When does WWHullks fall for the X-books?

White throughout IH4, but also always based in Latveria (earlier, he cuts up Hulk's brain to stick Banner's mind in a Banner clone in a flashback to the immediate aftermath of Fear Itself). IH4 13-15 is Doombots-only, explicitly while Doom's off-world playing around with his Infinity Gauntlet. IH4 7-7.1 relate to the scooping up of Banner's Hulked-out animals from the previous arc.

How soon after Fear Itself does this volume of Hulk start? Also, what issue is the flashback in?

[Somebody]

Franklin & Valeria hire X-Factor to look for a missing Sue. Turns out a left-over alternate Reed from Millar's arc - who turns out to be an alternate Doom-in-Reed's-body - has switched places with MU-Reed, and is nominally working with Doom (who doesn't really give a crap about him). Meanwhile, Sue's in Doom's custody just to keep her away from Reed-Doom.

Oh, and Layla Miller turns out to have been staying in Castle Doom "for the past year. Her foreknowledge has been exceptionally useful" since she dumped her memories in her past self [c. HoM] in XF3 50. Green tunic, Hitch-F4 costumes.

So a fairly standard appearance for Doom, then. X-Factor #201-202 were published the same months as Doctor Voodoo #4-5, Black Panther #12 & Doomwar #1, Thor #606-607, Siege #1-2 and Incredible Hulk #606-607.

If Layla has been staying at Castle Doom "for the past year," well, Castle Doom was destroyed in what, FF 466-467? Assuming he rebuilt it quickly after FF 469 and she showed up shortly after that, we should probably push this as close to WWHulks as possible to get her staying in Castle Doom for as long as we can, right? (I doubt a year passes between the first part of FF 469 and WWHulks, though)

+100 for all those FF issue numbers, ja?

There's something I'm wondering here. We never, ever see any fallout from the destruction in Latveria at the end of Millar's run - this X-Factor arc is one of the few places to acknowledge any part of it, but both Latveria in general and Castle Doom in particular are fine.

Now, in Dark Avengers #4, Castle Doom has been destroyed again, from when Doom was captured in Mighty Avengers. And what does Doom do? He cheats and pulls a Castle Doom from elsewhen (an alternate past, possibly?) with his time machine. I'm wondering if it's possible Layla was actually in Castle Doom when Millar 'sploded it, and he just rebuilt it - and in the process, "resurrected" her - in the same way (and, possibly, lots & lots of other stuff too). Because, as I say, Layla's presence there is meant to explain what she'd been doing since she dumped her memories into her younger self at some point around HoM (explaining how she Knew Stuff for the first four - real-time - years of the book).

How does after Doomwar #6 and before Incredible Hulk #606 for X-Factor #201-202 sound?

Fine.

When does WWHullks fall for the X-books?

Vague. Beast, Iceman & Cyclops appear in FotH/WWHulks (it's one storyline with two names) in pre-UX 500 costumes, which is probably an error - plus Storm, who's wearing her original costume for no apparent reason other than "McGuiness likes it" - but there's no real cues to narrow it down. Any placement will have to be based on how they relate to other stuff that's reference in FotH.

I did a quick run-down of FotH itself once here, but never expanded on it. Paul B did, but there were a few bits he missed that I pointed out, and I never checked it all.

White throughout IH4, but also always based in Latveria (earlier, he cuts up Hulk's brain to stick Banner's mind in a Banner clone in a flashback to the immediate aftermath of Fear Itself). IH4 13-15 is Doombots-only, explicitly while Doom's off-world playing around with his Infinity Gauntlet. IH4 7-7.1 relate to the scooping up of Banner's Hulked-out animals from the previous arc.

How soon after Fear Itself does this volume of Hulk start? Also, what issue is the flashback in?

Well, put it this way - the extensive flashbacks with Doom, which are in IH4 5 & 6 (plus a teaser in #3), take place between Fear Itself 7/3 ["Epilogue 2: Saturday"] (3:2) and (3:4), dovetailing into/repeating the last part [first, the Hulk allegedly asked a lot of others. He says Doom wasn't his first choice, and Doom says 'must have been everyone then' and says he'd heard the Tinkerer, Red Ghost, Mad Thinker & Baron Zemo (!) had been asked already].

The present-day of the volume itself starts "weeks" after the separation.

[Col_Fury]

+100 for all those FF issue numbers, ja?

Oops! Fixed now.

Well, put it this way - the extensive flashbacks with Doom, which are in IH4 5 & 6 (plus a teaser in #3), take place between Fear Itself 7/3 ["Epilogue 2: Saturday"] (3:2) and (3:4), dovetailing into/repeating the last part [first, the Hulk allegedly asked a lot of others. He says Doom wasn't his first choice, and Doom says 'must have been everyone then' and says he'd heard the Tinkerer, Red Ghost, Mad Thinker & Baron Zemo (!) had been asked already].

The present-day of the volume itself starts "weeks" after the separation.

Sweet.

does Doomwar #1 continue directly from Black Panther #12? Does Black Panther #9-12 need to be moved to after Thor #606 as well?

As it turns out, Doomwar #1 takes place "two days" after Black Panther #12. So yeah, it looks like Black Panther #9-12 needs to be moved to after T 606 as well.

In Girl Comics #2, Doom is wearing pink slippers, reading a gossip magazine and chats on the phone with Ben & Johnny about how Doom has a crush on Sue Storm.

In Deadpool #1000/6, Doom un-friends Deadpool on facebook.

Also, X-Force v2 #25 is the end of the Necrosha story. I seem to remember this happens shortly after Utopia. Doom, Strange and Voodoo all have cameos.

As it turns out, it's Namor #6-8, not #7-9. Also, he's explicitly referenced as brain damaged in #8. So that's nice.

Any thoughts on Strange #4? Does Strange's chronology dictate a placement anywhere, or is this mini fairly freestanding? (aside from that it has to happen after Brother Voodoo becomes Doctor Voodoo, of course) How does after Doomwar #6 and before X-Factor #201 sound?

Winter Soldier #1-5 feature Doom in a green tunic and Lucia von Bardas is trying to frame him. It looks to me like Winter Soldier #1-5 are Doom's latest appearances to date, following Doom's release from exile in FF 611.

[Jason Doty]

I just altered my post as to not derail your discussion and make myself more clear.

Your placement for X-Factor v1 #201-202 is fine.

Layla Miller drops off Madrox and heads farther back in time to give herself information. (X-Factor v3 #50)

Then appears in Nation X: X-Factor, which happens pretty close to after the set up of Utopia and before Emma Frost is freed of the Void in Uncanny X-Men. (before Uncanny X-Men v1 #518)

Then reunites with X-Factor in the "Second Coming" arc of X-Factor. (X-Factor v1 #204-206)

So without making any assumptions on what happened behind the scenes, she couldn't have been with Doom the whole time between traveling back in time in X-Factor v3 #50 and her return in X-Factor v1 #204-206.

[Col_Fury]

Thanks for the responses, people!

Putting all of the above together, we're now looking at this:

DOCTOR DOOM/VICTOR VON DOOM
…
PEN:REL 4
FNSM 24
[FF 558-FB]
[FF 557]
[FF 558]
[FF 559]
[FF 560]
[FF 561]
[FF 562]
[SECINV:DR 1 (1 - 7)]
[SECINV 8 (24)
[SECINV 8 (25 - 26)] ~ [SECINV:DR 1 (8)] ~ [DARKA 1 (1 - 2)] ~ UX@2 2 (11)
[SECINV:DR 1 (9 - 27)]
UX@2 2 (12)
[DR:CABAL 1]
[DARKA 1-FB]
[DARKA 2]
[DARKA 3]
[DARKA 4]
[FF 566]
[FF 567]
[FF 568-FB]
[DARKA2 176]
[DARKA2 177]
[FF 569-FB]
[FF 562]
[FF 563]
[FF 566]
[FF 567]
[FF 568]
[FF 569]
[CB&MI13 10]
[CB&MI13@ 1]
[CB&MI13 14]
[DR:CABAL 1/5]
T 600
T 601
T 602
[DR:HOOD 2]
[MA 24]
NA 53
[DARKA 6]
[DR:MM 1/2]
[BP5 1-FB]
[BP5 2-FB]
UTOPIA
CA:REBORN 4
[XFOR2 25]
[DRV 1]
[DRV 3]
[DRV 4]
[DRV 5]
T 603
T:GSFINALE
T 604
T 605
T 606
[BP5 9]
[BP5 10]
[BP5 11]
[BP5 12]
[DOOMWAR 1]
[DOOMWAR 2]
[DOOMWAR 3]
[DOOMWAR 4]
[DOOMWAR 5]
[DOOMWAR 6]
[STRANGE2 4]
[XF 201]
[XF 202]
[H2 606]
[H2 607]
[H4 20]
[H2 608]
[H4 22]
[H2 609]
[SIEGE:CABAL-VO] ~ [A: I 30-BTS]
[A:CC 2]
[A:CC 3]
[A:CC 4]
[A:CC 5]
[A:CC 6]
[A:CC 7]
[A:CC 8]
[A:CC 9]
[DPOOL 1000/6]
[N3 6]
[N3 7]
[N3 8]
[FF 583]
[FF 588]
[F.F. 1]
[F.F. 2]
[H5 5-FB]
[H5 3-FB-VO]
[H5 6-FB]
[X2 16]
[X2 17]
[X2 18]
[X2 19]
[H5 6]
[H5 7]
[H5 7.1]
[F.F. 3]
[F.F. 4]
[F.F. 5]
[F.F. 8]
[F.F. 9]
[F.F. 10]
[FF 600]
[F.F. 12]
[F.F. 13 (1-19:3)]
[F.F. 14-FB]
[F.F. 16-FB]
[F.F. 13 (19:4-20)]
[F.F. 14]
[F.F. 16]
[FF 611-FB]
[FF 611]
[WS 1]
[WS 2]
[WS 3]
[WS 4]
[WS 5]

The only thing that sticks out as strange at a glance is Children's Crusade, but this is really the only place for it to go. Maybe Doom's fiance Scarlet Witch was unknowingly reversing Doom's brain damage, and when she left it "came back?" Or, maybe his brain damage wasn't really that bad at first, but progressivley got worse over time, and he finally admits it to himself in FF 583? (he's trying to go about his normal routine in Namor #6-8, but other characters notice he's not as sharp as he used to be, and he has to ask for help to do certain things)

Comments, thoughts and suggestions welcome!

[Paul Bourcier]

I have this more precise sequence for Doom circa F.F. 13-14:
...
F.F. 13 (1:1-19:3)
F.F. 14 (16:1-16:3)-FB
F.F. 16-FB
F.F. 13 (19:4-20)
F.F. 14
...

[Col_Fury]

Thanks!

[Somebody]

Didn't we agree that the Loeb/Rulk series was HULK, not H4 (so as to avoid H2 & H4 running simultaneously)?

Or, maybe his brain damage wasn't really that bad at first, but progressivley got worse over time, and he finally admits it to himself in FF 583?

See attached.

[Col_Fury]

Didn't we agree that the Loeb/Rulk series was HULK, not H4 (so as to avoid H2 & H4 running simultaneously)?

I love that idea, but we've been using H4 in the listings.

See attached.

Then I'll blame the Scarlet Witch.

[Somebody]

Then I'll blame the Scarlet Witch.

If that was the case and he was restored by the time of Children's Crusade, even inadvertently, wouldn't his F4 583 flashback assert the Life Force was to blame for his diminished condition, rather than the Leader's machinations and Banner's prompting?

[Col_Fury]

Maybe. *shrug*

The problem is, there's nowhere else for Children's Crusade to go. We can't put A:CC after Doom gets his brains fixed, because A:CC takes place before the Human Torch "dies." And we can't place A:CC before Doom gets brain damage because A:CC takes place after Chaos War.

WWHulks -> Siege -> Chaos War -> A:CC -> Human Torch "dies" -> Doom gets his brains fixed

A:CC has to happen while Doom has brain damage. Unless, of course, some future comic reveals that Doom time-traveled from some point after he got his brains fixed back to the events of A:CC. But good luck with that.