NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:15 pm

Jason Doty wrote:UX 518-519 Magneto comes up with the idea while Cyclops is busy with the Void situation. By UX 520 the pillar construction work is well underway and Atlanteans are starting to come.
Is Atlantis mentioned at all in XvATLAS 1-2?
Frans wrote:Rise and Fall of the New Mutants
NM3 #15 happens right after Second Coming. X-Men are seen rebuilding Utopia. Cannonball looks through a big hole in the wall, when Cyclops says to take his team on a recreational leave. Karma gets her leg. Hellion is seen with his hands still in bandage. Warlock purges the life glow of Hodge's man he absorbed. NM3 #16-21 follow from that. Rogue, Cyclops, Magneto, Namor, Hope appear in end fight.
Collision
XML #238-241 Rogue and Magneto take Indra and other New X-Men to India as instructed by Cyclops. Hellion still has his hands in bandage.
Fables of Reconstruction
XML #242-243 Hellion receives his new metal hands. X-Men still rebuild Utopia, but now also help San Francisco rebuilding. Hope is still around (without her Lights). Cyclops, Frost, Rogue appear.
Five Lights
UXM #526-529 Hope and Rogue search for the first light, X-men are already keeping track of the Lights. Iceman and Angel are in Vancouver, while Wolverine is in Japan. In #526 Cyclops travels to Japan to accompany Wolverine. Cypher also appears. Cyclops is in Japan with Wolverine during #527-529. #529 has to be split to make room for GENHOPE #1-4.
Future is a Four Letter Word
Generation Hope #1-4 Cyclops, Wolverine, Rogue, Hope and 4 Lights are in Japan to search and heal the fifth Light, Zero (Kenji Uedo). In #4 they arrive back on Utopia.
Quarantine
#530-534 Actually this arc begins in #529 where Frost, Pryde and Fantomex take Sebastian Shaw to China to leave him there, amnesiac. The Lights are already on Utopia.
Ah, Hellion. Hellion has to get his hands before Age of X. Thanks!

So we have:

NM3 15-21 -> X 238-243 -> Age of X -> NM3 25-28

So what's stopping NM3 25-28 from happening before UX 526-534? Does Cannonball appear in X-Men: Legacy #238-243?
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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Frans » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:35 pm

Col_Fury wrote:So we have:

NM3 15-21 -> X 238-243 -> Age of X -> NM3 25-28

So what's stopping NM3 25-28 from happening before UX 526-534? Does Cannonball appear in X-Men: Legacy #238-243?
Huh? Isn't NM3 25-28 after Age of X and UX 526-534 before? No Cannonball does not appear in XML 238-243.

Rogue and Cyclops appear in all arcs; they are the bottle neck, and Hope of course.

What order do you prefer then?

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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Jason Doty » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:24 pm

Is Atlantis mentioned at all in XvATLAS 1-2?
No, Namor is labeled as King of his people. He's annoyed that he has to help the X-Men stabilize the island, which is being held afloat by some kind of buoyancy machine that has malfunctioned, because he was busy trying to rebuild his nation.

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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:19 am

Jason Doty wrote:Namor is labeled as King of his people. He's annoyed that he has to help the X-Men stabilize the island, which is being held afloat by some kind of buoyancy machine that has malfunctioned, because he was busy trying to rebuild his nation.
How does this look?

[UX 515] (right after EXODUS)
CA: REBORN 3
NATX: XF 1 (before Necrosha for Onyxx, before UX 518 for Emma Frost)
XFOR3 22 (Necrosha, Onyxx dies)
[DRL: X 1] (Namor helps X-Men w/Utopia)
XvATLAS 1 (X-Men teleporting their stuff from Greymalkin to Utopia)
XvATLAS 2 (Atlanteans not yet living under Utopia, Namor helping w/Utopia)
TORCH 3 (Atlanteans not yet living under Utopia)
TORCH 4
TORCH 5
UX 517
UX 519 (Atlanteans beginning to live under Utopia)
NATX 1/3 (Namor attending Utopia meetings)
UX 520
UX 522
NATX 4/2 (Namor attending Utopia meetings)
NATX 4/4 (Namor at Utopia, chats w/Storm)
BP5 9 (doesn't say anything about Atlanteans)
BP5 11
BP5 12 (before WWHulks for Doom)
H2 607 (WWHulks)
H2 608
FOTH: SSH 2
FOTH: SSH 3
H2 610 (WWHulks; before Siege)
X: SECC 1 (Second Coming; after Siege)
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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:41 am

Frans wrote:
Col_Fury wrote:So we have:

NM3 15-21 -> X 238-243 -> Age of X -> NM3 25-28

So what's stopping NM3 25-28 from happening before UX 526-534? Does Cannonball appear in X-Men: Legacy #238-243?
Huh? Isn't NM3 25-28 after Age of X and UX 526-534 before? No Cannonball does not appear in XML 238-243.

Rogue and Cyclops appear in all arcs; they are the bottle neck, and Hope of course.

What order do you prefer then?
I don't have a preference yet, but I'm leaning toward this:

NM3 15-21 happen in the immediate aftermath of Second Coming. Cannonball is injured and NM3 21 ends with Canonball in the infirmary.
X 238-243 happen after shortly after Second Coming. San Francisco is being rebuilt and Hellion gets new robot hands. No Cannonball.
X 245-247/NM3 22-24 is Age of X; this is a reality warp so it doesn't matter that Cannonball appears.
NM3 25-28 starts with Cannonball in the infirmary, still recovering from his wounds from NM3 15-21. Cannonball is fine after this.
UX 526-529/GENH 1-4/UX 530-534 happen shortly after Second Coming. Cannonball appears and is flying around and stuff.

So, is there any reason why UX 526-534 can't happen after Cannonball recovers in NM3 25-28? Are there any comics where Cannonball appears that have to occur after UX 534 and before Age of X? (I'm almost positive there's not)

* * *

Also, I just noticed that UX 535 refers to UX 534.1 as "yesterday," so there's that. Also, UX 534.1-538 (where Kitty Pryde is restored) references Curse of the Mutants and a bunch of other stuff as in the past. Should Uncanny X-Force #9 happen before or after UX 534.1-538?
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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Jason Doty » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:33 am

Col Fury wrote
How does this look?
Its acceptable from my point of view thus far between Exodus and Second Coming. I've added this order in on the "Hashing out X-Men thread" to make sure nothing glaring stood out.

I think that Osborn will end up being the deciding factor for this time period.

I'll look over what you and Frans have been working between Second Coming and Fear Itself next.

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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Frans » Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:39 pm

Col_Fury wrote:I don't have a preference yet, but I'm leaning toward this:

NM3 15-21 happen in the immediate aftermath of Second Coming. Cannonball is injured and NM3 21 ends with Canonball in the infirmary.
X 238-243 happen after shortly after Second Coming. San Francisco is being rebuilt and Hellion gets new robot hands. No Cannonball.
X 245-247/NM3 22-24 is Age of X; this is a reality warp so it doesn't matter that Cannonball appears.
NM3 25-28 starts with Cannonball in the infirmary, still recovering from his wounds from NM3 15-21. Cannonball is fine after this.
UX 526-529/GENH 1-4/UX 530-534 happen shortly after Second Coming. Cannonball appears and is flying around and stuff.

So, is there any reason why UX 526-534 can't happen after Cannonball recovers in NM3 25-28? Are there any comics where Cannonball appears that have to occur after UX 534 and before Age of X? (I'm almost positive there's not)
It's a long stretch, but anything's possible. If you would like to let UXM 526-534 happen after NM3 25-28, then no Five Lights can appear in Age of X or anywhere before that either. Let's have a look.

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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Frans » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:10 pm

Kitty, Kitty Pryde is why this sequence you propose doesn't work. I knew there was something.

During Second Coming Kitty Pryde is in her stasis chamber, unable to speak, she can't unphase. This continues in UXM #526-528, where Emma establishes a link so she can speak with Colossus. Nearly at the end of UXM #529, Pryde tries on her "space suit with the bubble helmet" for the first time. Right after this there should be a break to let GENHOPE #1-4 happen. At the end of #4 she's seen with the bubble. Then the remainder of the issue and UXM 530-534 should happen. Kitty Pryde doesn't appear in NM3 #15-21 nor in XML #238-243.
She is seen in NM3 #25 with her bubble helmet. That's one reason the order you suggest can't work.

Also in NM3 #25 Cyclops shows Moonstar the Sublime Corporation, the villains of Quarantine on a screen as a threat already happened. That's a second.

The reason for Cannonball being in the infirmary in NM3 #21 as well as a continuation of that sick bed in NM3 #25 is not an extremely valid argument. Sunspot lies in a hospital bed in #21 as well (while Cannonball still walks), but he is fighting again in #25. Also Moonstar and Magma have bandages, but also they fight at the start of #25. My explanation would be (as also stated) that Cannonball needs psychiatric help in the closed ward from events from Fall of the New Mutants AND Age of X. While in #21 he wasn't that far down the road, Age of X pushed him over the edge.

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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:23 pm

I've checked into this and I think we can place NM3 28 before UX 526 for Cannonball's sake. The publication order is way off, but I can't see other evidence that prevents us from doing this. Let's remember to place Namor in X 247 right before NM3 24.
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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Frans » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:40 pm

Paul Bourcier wrote:I've checked into this and I think we can place NM3 28 before UX 526 for Cannonball's sake. The publication order is way off, but I can't see other evidence that prevents us from doing this. Let's remember to place Namor in X 247 right before NM3 24.
Sorry guys, I still don't understand why we have to? Could you please explain why do we have to go this route.

Here's another point. NM3 #28 has Magik as prisoner. In Age of X she's also a prisoner in Fortress X. I know this is an alternate reality, but hey Tempo died for real there.

In Curse of the Mutants: Storm and Gambit #1, Magik teleports a team of X-Men to Vampire Island. Curse of the Mutants happens before Age of X, right? In your order would that not imply, first Age of X --> NM3 #28 --> UXM #526-534 --> Curse of the Mutants?
Last edited by Frans on Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:55 pm

Col_Fury wrote:
Should Uncanny X-Force #9 happen before or after UX 534.1-538?
Based solely on publication order of story arcs, I think UXFOR 9 would go between A4 12 and UX@2 3.

A4 7-12 (Jan-June)
UXFOR 5-9 (Mar-July)
UX@2 3/SR:SS@ 1/N@2 1 (May-July)
N3 9-11 (June-Aug)
UX 534.1-538 (June-Aug)

I can't see any evidence that would prevent such a placement. Does anyone else?
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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:07 pm

Frans wrote:Kitty Pryde is why this sequence you propose doesn't work. I knew there was something.

During Second Coming Kitty Pryde is in her stasis chamber, unable to speak, she can't unphase. This continues in UXM #526-528, where Emma establishes a link so she can speak with Colossus. Nearly at the end of UXM #529, Pryde tries on her "space suit with the bubble helmet" for the first time. Right after this there should be a break to let GENHOPE #1-4 happen. At the end of #4 she's seen with the bubble. Then the remainder of the issue and UXM 530-534 should happen. Kitty Pryde doesn't appear in NM3 #15-21 nor in XML #238-243.
She is seen in NM3 #25 with her bubble helmet. That's one reason the order you suggest can't work.
Hmn. That's a good point.
Frans wrote:Also in NM3 #25 Cyclops shows Moonstar the Sublime Corporation, the villains of Quarantine on a screen as a threat already happened. That's a second.
And that's another one.

Give me a bit.
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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:22 pm

Yup, those are good points that certainly outweigh Cannonball's condition, and we have made the "relapse" argument a number of times in the past.

Col_Fury should have something for us all to ponder sometime soon. Good input, guys!
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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Col_Fury » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:58 am

Frans wrote:Cannonball needs psychiatric help
And this is followed up in X-Men: Regenesis #1, where Cannonball still needs prychiatric help. Cannonball also appears in Uncanny X-Men Annual v2 #3, which needs to happen after New Mutants v3 #21 and before X-Men: Regenesis #1. So for Cannonball we at least have:

NM3 15-21 -> UX@2 3 -> X: REGEN 1

That means the situation Cannonball is in in NM3 25 is an ongoing issue, so that's not a placement clue for UX 526-529.

For Kitty, she gets her bubble suit in UX 530-534, already has it in NM3 25, and no longer needs it as of UX 534.1-538. So for Kitty Pryde we at least have:

UX 530-534 -> NM3 25 -> UX 534.1-538

For Magik, she does bad stuff in NM3 15-21, is still active in Curse of the Mutants (which has to happen after NM3 15-21) and is finally imprisoned in NM3 25. So for Magik we have:

NM3 15-21 -> Curse of the Mutants -> NM3 25

Kitty is already in her bubble suit in W4 5-8, which happens VERY SHORTLY after Curse of the Mutants, so Curse of the Mutants has to happen after UX 534.

Putting all of this together we get:

NM3 15-21 -> UX 526-529/GENH 1-4/UX 530-534 -> Curse of the Mutants -> NM3 25 -> UX 534.1-538

NM3 22-24/X 244-249 is Age of X and leads into Magneto going off into space in X 250-258. Age of X has to happen before NM3 25 because of publication order, and NM3 25 has to happen before UX 534.1-538 because of Kitty Pryde. However, Magneto appears in NM3 25. Luckily, NM3 25 doesn't take very long to happen. So:

NM3 15-21 -> UX 526-529/GENH 1-4/UX 530-534 -> Curse of the Mutants -> Age of X -> NM3 25 -> X 250-258 -> UX 534.1-538

And for Namor, we end up with this:

X: SECC 2 (Second Coming)
NM3 20 (immediately after Second Coming)
NM3 21 (Magik does bad things)
UX 527 (shortly after Second Coming)
UX 528
UX 531 (Kitty gets bubble suit)
DOOMWAR 6 (only appears on last page; after Second Coming)
INV4 1 (after Doomwar for Cap)
INV4 2
INV4 4
INV4 5 (before Chaos War for Captain America)
X2 2 (Curse of the Mutants; after Chaos War, Magik still active)
N3 1
X2 3
N3 2
N3 3
N3 4
X2 5 (Curse of the Mutants)
N3 5
W4 5 (Wolverine Goes to Hell; shortly after Curse of the Mutants)
W4 6
W4 7
N3 6-FB (right after Wolverine Goes to Hell)
N3 6
N3 7
N3 8 (before FF 588 for Doom)
X: TS&P 1-FB
H4 27 (after X: TS&P for Cap, which is after Curse of the Mutants)
H4 28
FF 584 (after H4 27 for Cap)
FF 585
FF 586
FF 587
FF 588 (Human Torch “dies”)
A4 8 (after Human Torch “dies” for Cap)
A4 9
A4 10
A4 11
A4 12
KLAWS 4 (Feb 2011)
UXFOR 9 (Magneto appears) (July 2011)
UX@2 3 (not covered in Cap Index, so should be after A4 12, Magneto appears)
SR: SS@ 1 (between UX 534-534.1)
N@2 1 (before N3 9) (July 2011)
X 245 (Age of X)
X 247
NM3 24
X 248 (immediately after Age of X; leads into Magneto & Rogue going off into space in X 250-258) (July 2011)
NM3 25 (Kitty in bubble suit, Magik imprisoned, Magneto appears so X 250-258 is after this) (July 2011)
N3 9 (June - August 2011)
N3 10
N3 11 (before Fear Itself)
UX 534.1 (references Curse of the Mutants and a bunch of other stuff, Magneto back from space)
UX 535 (day after UX 534.1)
UX 538 (Kitty Pryde restored, no more bubble suit) (June - August 2011)
UX 540 (Fear Itself, Magik already imprisoned)

How's that look?

Great feedback everyone! Thanks!
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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Frans » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:23 pm

Looks fine to me now :)

Hmmm.... I've got one "thing" in your explanation section. XML 250-258 is one long story which ends in space. Mike Carey said in an interview that the "Five Miles"-arc should happen between Schism and Regenesis. This is not possible, because "Lost Legions" XML #250-253 flows directly into "Five Miles" XML #254-258. Since Magneto, Gambit and Rogue appear in FEAR ITSELF they have to be back before that storyline.

I always assumed that UXM 534.1-538 happened before XML 250-258. Haven't got clues by hand. One of the most important is the bringing back of Havok and Polaris. They don't appear in Fear Itself nor Schism, but do after Regenesis. Thought it would be best for them to come back as short as possible before Regenesis. I've put a break between 249 and 250? And it also seems that #259 does not happen for from the end, because of Ariel as a stowaway.

Is there a remark of Magneto about being back from space?

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