NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Col_Fury » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:44 pm

Frans wrote:Is there a remark of Magneto about being back from space?
No, that was just a marker for me.
FRans wrote:it also seems that #259 does not happen for from the end, because of Ariel as a stowaway.
Yeah, X 250 wants to happen shortly after X 249 and X 259 wants to happen shortly after X 258. So which reference is stronger?

After Age of X (X 247), the X-Club starts cataloguing Legion's personalities and powers (X 249). Legion discovers some of his personalities have gone rogue (still X 249) and the X-Men search for them (X 250). The X-Men get back from space (X 258) and Rogue discovers Ariel is a stowaway split between their bodies when she touches Magneto (X 259).

X-Men: Regenesis #1 references X 258 as recent (and crosses over with X 259).

It really seems like X 244-258 is one big uninterrupted story, doesn't it? How long do the X-Men wait to go after Legion's lost personalities and how long before Rogue touches Magneto?

Well, I found something in X-Men: Legacy #249 I think we can use. In X 249 Legion discovers that his personalities are resisting him, but they haven't left yet (I assumed they already had). By the time of X 250-FB, Legion's persoanlities have already left. So there is some time that we can open up into a gap between X 249 and X 250-FB if we have to.
Frans wrote:Mike Carey said in an interview that the "Five Miles"-arc should happen between Schism and Regenesis. This is not possible, because "Lost Legions" XML #250-253 flows directly into "Five Miles" XML #254-258. Since Magneto, Gambit and Rogue appear in FEAR ITSELF they have to be back before that storyline.
Since we now have a gap we can use between X 249-250, why can't all of X 250-258 happen after Fear Itself?
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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Jason Doty » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:46 pm

Col Fury
Your work between Second Coming and Fear Itself checks out with me thus far.

Now we can work from fear itself to Avengers vs. X-Men, the only question I have right now is are we gonna try to keep the X-Men: To Serve and Protect limited series by or around the Protect and Serve arc in X-Men v3 (v.2 for the MCP) which ended up being after Fear Itself and before Spider-Island?

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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Jason Doty » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:30 pm

I like the idea of putting all of X 250-258 being after Fear Itself.

The only thing is that its actually X 250/2 that comes before X 250-258 its not a FB. The title of the story is "Flashback."

For Frans and your Idea I place X 250/2 just before Serve and Protect and X 250-258 after X2 19 and FF 3-11 because of Magneto and Gambit's appearances in X2.

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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Paul Bourcier » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:14 pm

Jason Doty wrote:
I like the idea of putting all of X 250-258 being after Fear Itself.
That's where I have it.

And shouldn't X-Men: Schism #1 (published Sept 2011) follow very shortly after X 258 (published Aug 2011)? In X-Men: Regenesis #1, Magneto notes, "No sooner than we return from the depths of space [X 258] we find the world of the X-Men falling apart." Schism would surely describe that condition.

Of course, we'd need to squeeze W4 16 (which features Rogue and Magneto) in between X 258 and Schism, given that the end of W4 16 leads right into Schism, as noted in another thread.

But what about Prelude to Schism, whatever the hell that was? Magneto and Rogue appear here, so it's going to have to occur either before X 250-258 or after. A noted chronologist shared a theory with me that the dread that the X-Men feel in Prelude could be attributed to the fear that gripped the world at the start of Fear Itself. If that supposition holds up, then Prelude to Schism should be called "Prelude to Fear Itself." Kitty is fine in Prelude, so we're talking about after UX 538 here.

I like the gap between X 249 and 250. Those two issues really should happen right after Age of X, followed closely be NM3 25-27, another Age of X aftermath arc. And these issues occur before Kitty no longer needs to bubble suit in X 534.1-538, as noted before.

So we'd have the following:

Age of X >> X 248-249 >> NM3 25-27 >> UX 534.1-538 >> Prelude to Schism >> Fear Itself >> X 250-258 >> W4 16 >> Schism

Does this make sense?
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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Jason Doty » Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:00 pm

Paul wrote
And shouldn't X-Men: Schism #1 (published Sept 2011) follow very shortly after X 258 (published Aug 2011)?
I placed X 250/2 as close as I could get after Fear Itself, and X 250-258 after Magneto's last appearance in X2 19 which is before Schism. FF 3-11 have to also take place after X2 19, but the X-Men that appear in the meeting in FF 11, seem to be all from Wolverine's camp after Schism (Except for Namor, who has close ties to the FF. So, wouldn't Schism and Regenesis take place simultaneously with FF 3-10, then FF 11?

So for the X-Men- X2 19 , X 250-258, X: PRELUDE TO SCHISM , X: SCHISM, X: REGENISIS, FF 11?

So for the FF- X2 19, FF 3-11?

Paul wrote
Of course, we'd need to squeeze W4 16 (which features Rogue and Magneto) in between X 258 and Schism, given that the end of W4 16 leads right into Schism, as noted in another thread.
Just the last page.

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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:53 am

Jason Doty wrote:So, wouldn't Schism and Regenesis take place simultaneously with FF 3-10, then FF 11?
F.F. 3-11 & FF 600-604 happen after Schism.
Jason Doty wrote:The only thing is that its actually X 250/2 that comes before X 250-258 its not a FB. The title of the story is "Flashback."
Yeah, X 250/2 is the story told in reverse, and takes place before X 250-FB (Cyclops sends Rogue's team to go after Legion's personalities) and before X 250 (Rogue's team is hunting Legion's personalities).
Paul Bourcier wrote:A noted chronologist shared a theory with me that the dread that the X-Men feel in Prelude could be attributed to the fear that gripped the world at the start of Fear Itself.
Ha! :)
I do like that theory; the dread presented in Prelude does lend itself better to Fear Itself than Schism. And if Prelude is placed before Fear Itself, it's still before Schism.
Paul Bourcier wrote:Age of X >> X 248-249 >> NM3 25-27 >> UX 534.1-538 >> Prelude to Schism >> Fear Itself >> X 250-258 >> W4 16 >> Schism

Does this make sense?
It does to me.
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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:51 am

Emma Forst loses an arm in UX2 1-3. UX2 4 happens shortly, within a few days, after UX2 3 (or rather, UX2 4 happens immediately after UX2 3 and a few days pass between pages of UX2 4 before the X-Men appear again). UX2 5 happens shortly after UX2 4; Emma is noted as recovering from her arm loss. Also, UX2 5 refers to UXFOR 14 as "yesterday" (UXFOR 10-35 crosses over with W&X 4; Psylocke appears in UXFOR 10-35 and UX2 5-8). Sometime later in UX2 9 Emma already has her arm back, but it still itches. In UX2 10, Captain America questions Cyclops' priorities.

In GENH 13-17 (January - May 2012), Emma Frost is just fine. This is the story where Sebastian Shaw returns, but still has no memories. Hope starts to lighten up.

In XCLUB 1-5 (February - June 2012), Emma Frost is just fine. Cyclops is looking for some good publicity. This would suggest a placement after UX2 10.

So for Namor, how does this look:

UX 544 (Schism)
UX2 1
UX2 2
UX2 3 (Emma Frost loses an arm)
UX2 4
UX2 5 (Emma Frost inactive; recovering from her arm loss; UXFOR 14 referred to as “yesterday”)
UX2 6
UX2 7
UX2 8
F.F. 11
FF 600 (Human Torch returns)
FF 604 (May 2012)
UX2 9 (Emma Frost has her arm back, it still itches)
UX2 10 (Cap chastises Cyclops for his priorities) (June 2012)
GENH 13 (Emma Frost active)
GENH 17 (May 2012)
CLUB 4 (Emma Frost active; Cyclops looking for good publicity) (June 2012)
AVX 1 (Avengers vs. X-Men)
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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Jason Doty » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:21 am

Regarding Prelude to Schism,

Of the three possibilities for this series, before Fear Itself just seems wrong given the title. I'm either for it's an unknown threat that happens prior to Schism, but after Fear Itself, or if nothing else Frans' suggestion of it happening between 1 and 2 of Schism itself.

I'm against, tying the unseen threat to anything when its not specifically mentioned, Juggernaut possessed wasn't a threat coming to Utopia itself until after the X-Men engaged him and he offered his choice to the citizens of San Francisco or Utopia and would place this series between pages of Fear Itself.

They're debating about abandoning Utopia in Prelude.

I've never been a fan of Fran's suggestion on this either, because the X-Men in Prelude are not available when the Giant Sentinel threat comes either (which is the threat to the island), they're off facing other Sentinels around the globe or incapacitated.
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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Frans » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:29 pm

Jason Doty wrote:Regarding Prelude to Schism,

Of the three possibilities for this series, before Fear Itself just seems wrong given the title. I'm either for it's an unknown threat that happens prior to Schism, but after Fear Itself, or if nothing else Frans' suggestion of it happening between 1 and 2 of Schism itself.

I'm against, tying the unseen threat to anything when its not specifically mentioned, Juggernaut possessed wasn't a threat coming to Utopia itself until after the X-Men engaged him and he offered his choice to the citizens of San Francisco or Utopia and would place this series between pages of Fear Itself.

They're talking debating about abandoning Utopia in Prelude.

I've never been a fan of Fran's suggestion on this either, because the X-Men in Prelude are not available when the Giant Sentinel threat comes either (which is the threat to the island), they're off facing other Sentinels around the globe or incapacitated.
Let me elaborate a bit further. I didn't see the Giant Sentinel as the actual threat, but Sentinels popping up all over the globe. Between Schism #1 and #2 all X-Men (could) have been on the island, although they are not all shown on panel. At the start of #2 they are all over the globe. This is seen at the end of the series when everyone leaves.

Actually I like the Fear Itself solution as well. Mine I like better of course :lol: Also the title-issue is a bit off then.

I don't like the unknown threat solution. You still have to place it somewhere between UXM #538 (because of Kitty) and Schism (because of the split between teams). In this period a lot of debate is already going around of placing different series. Is it always this hard? :roll:

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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Frans » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:41 pm

Col_Fury wrote:Emma Forst loses an arm in UX2 1-3. UX2 4 happens shortly, within a few days, after UX2 3 (or rather, UX2 4 happens immediately after UX2 3 and a few days pass between pages of UX2 4 before the X-Men appear again). UX2 5 happens shortly after UX2 4; Emma is noted as recovering from her arm loss. Also, UX2 5 refers to UXFOR 14 as "yesterday" (UXFOR 10-35 crosses over with W&X 4; Psylocke appears in UXFOR 10-35 and UX2 5-8). Sometime later in UX2 9 Emma already has her arm back, but it still itches. In UX2 10, Captain America questions Cyclops' priorities.

In GENH 13-17 (January - May 2012), Emma Frost is just fine. This is the story where Sebastian Shaw returns, but still has no memories. Hope starts to lighten up.
I'd rather would replace GENH #13-17, because Zero dies in the last issue of GENH. He's not among the team, that helps Hope fight Unit. The Generation Hope team exists of Pixie, Primal, Velocidad en Transonic. Can't GENH #13-17 happen before UX2 #1? They both are first issues after REGENESIS anyways. Or am I overlooking something here?

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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Frans » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:06 pm

Col_Fury wrote:Well, I found something in X-Men: Legacy #249 I think we can use. In X 249 Legion discovers that his personalities are resisting him, but they haven't left yet (I assumed they already had). By the time of X 250-FB, Legion's persoanlities have already left. So there is some time that we can open up into a gap between X 249 and X 250-FB if we have to.
Frans wrote:Mike Carey said in an interview that the "Five Miles"-arc should happen between Schism and Regenesis. This is not possible, because "Lost Legions" XML #250-253 flows directly into "Five Miles" XML #254-258. Since Magneto, Gambit and Rogue appear in FEAR ITSELF they have to be back before that storyline.
Since we now have a gap we can use between X 249-250, why can't all of X 250-258 happen after Fear Itself?
Excellent I like the solution to have this story closer to Schism AND after Fear Itself. Initially I've made the same assumption as you did, that the personas left Legion already in 249. Between me and you, I think Mike Carey intended this also, but it's now re-interpreted in a better chronological way anyway.

Jason, there is a 250/2 and a 250-FB. The flashback happens 12 hours earlier than the story in 250, which is technically the flashback. That's when Legion a.o. start looking for the missing personas. Also in this flashback Rogue meets with Rachel who nearly fades away. Then in 250/2 Rachel actually leaves, but before is touched by Rogue. The order should be 249 --> 250-FB --> 250/2 --> 250.

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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Jason Doty » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:22 pm

I just looked through the issues of Prelude to Schism.

What ever the threat is, "It is coming from above" and "the X-Men have never faced it before."

Wolverine is in the Avengers' camp throughout Fear Itself, I don't see him leaving the X-Men because of this imminent threat and heading to New York. When what ever the threat is, they're getting ready to go into battle. So if it happens before Fear Itself, It's still an unknown threat and has nothing to do with Fear Itself.

As far as Frans suggestion, the X-Men have faced Sentinels many times, including future Nimrod ones. So that should rule out that because its a threat they haven't faced before.

Why are we forcing this to be tied to anything that is not explicitly stated?

It should come before Professor X and Magneto go to hunt for Legion and before Schism because of the title. At the end of Lost Legions Professor X leaves with Legion and he obviously takes him to Tibet and we don't see him until AvX.
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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Jason Doty » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:30 pm

Fury wrote
The order should be 249 --> 250-FB --> 250/2 --> 250.
That's all good. Thanks.

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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Frans » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:35 pm

This will be my fourth and last post of today...
Col_Fury wrote: UX 540 (Fear Itself)
UX 543
FI: DEEP 1
FI: DEEP 2
FI: DEEP 3
FI: DEEP 4
HFH3 12
FI 7.1 (Fear Itself)
FI: FEARLESS 4
FI: FEARLESS 10
FI: FEARLESS 11
FI: FEARLESS 12 (shortly after Fear Itself, before Spider-Island)
Why have you placed HFH3 12 between issues of Fear Itself? Haven't read the HFH3 series yet, but flipped through #12 and couldn't find any Fear Itself reference (#11 was their last FI-tie in with a definite end to it), so I automatically think it's better to placed after FI.

Can I revert to my admissions in the Utopia-to-Regenesis thread? For easy reading I've copy-pasted this below:
FEAR ITSELF THE DEEP
Fear Itself The Deep v1 #1 (p. 1-6) takes place two days before the rest of the series. I presume Attuma attacks New Atlantis before Vancouver, so this should be placed after the Attuma appearance in Fear Itself #2 and before Alpha Flight #1.
Fear Itself The Deep is also difficult to place, because Namor makes appearances in the Fear Itself Uncanny X-Men issues. Namor appears in #540 and in #543. Namor is confident and his strong self in #540. He also tells Emma Frost he has gathered his allies. Therefore this cannot be placed in the gap after the first pages of Fear Itself The Deep #1. Furthermore the Deep issues #1 through #3 are one continuous battle with the Generals of Attuma, apart from the Flashback in the beginning of #1, which we already have placed. For these reasons Uncanny X-Men #540 has to happen after Fear Itself The Deep #1, #2 and #3. Namor's appearance in Uncanny X-Men #543 has to happen after Fear Itself The Deep #4.

Based on the above my proposed order would look like this for Namor:
FI: DEEP 1-FB
FI: DEEP 1
FI: DEEP 2
FI: DEEP 3
UX540
FI: DEEP 4
UX543
FI 7.1 (although it's a very obscure debatable appearance? or are my eyes crossed)
FI: FEARLESS 4
FI: FEARLESS 10
FI: FEARLESS 11
FI: FEARLESS 12
HFH3 12

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Re: NAMOR, the SUB-MARINER!

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:34 pm

Frans wrote:The order should be 249 --> 250-FB --> 250/2 --> 250.
Yes, you're right. Thanks!
Frans wrote:I'd rather would replace GENH #13-17, because Zero dies in the last issue of GENH. He's not among the team, that helps Hope fight Unit. The Generation Hope team exists of Pixie, Primal, Velocidad en Transonic. Can't GENH #13-17 happen before UX2 #1?
I wanted Cyclops to set up his Extinction Team before all of the other stuff happened. BUT, two weeks pass between pages 9-11 of UX2 1, so how about this:

UX2 1 (1-9) (Cyclops establishes his Extinction Team)
GENH 13 (Emma Frost just fine)
GENH 17 (Zero dies)
UX2 1 (10-27) (Hope's team appears, but not Zero)
UX2 2
UX2 3 (Emma loses an arm)
Jason Doty wrote:It should come before Professor X and Magneto go to hunt for Legion and before Schism because of the title. At the end of Lost Legions Professor X leaves with Legion and he obviously takes him to Tibet and we don't see him until AvX.
Well, let's put those references together and see what it looks like:

Prelude #1-4 (Prof. X appears)
Legacy #250-258 (Prof. X & Legion leave fro Tibet; no more Prof. X appearances until AvX)
Schism #1-5

So we already have at least one other story separating Prelude to Schism and Schism; there's no way around it.
Jason Doty wrote:Wolverine is in the Avengers' camp throughout Fear Itself, I don't see him leaving the X-Men because of this imminent threat and heading to New York. When what ever the threat is, they're getting ready to go into battle. So if it happens before Fear Itself, It's still an unknown threat and has nothing to do with Fear Itself.
Wolverine is with the Avenger DURING Fear Itself, yes. But leading up to Fear Itself the world is gripped by a building and impending sense of dread (as shown in Fear Itself #1, which had started creeping in before Fear Itself #1 starts). When the hammers fall that dread turns into full-blown fear and chaos.

The suggestion here is that Prelude happens before Fear Itself #1 when the sense of dread is creeping in. The X-Men don't know what the threat is, they're just freaked out a bit.
Frans wrote:Is it always this hard? :roll:
If it was easy it wouldn't be so much fun! :)
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