Hand ninja experts unite!

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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Hand ninja experts unite!

Post by JephYork » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:43 am

I have Hand ninja questions! Can anyone help?

Wolverine v4 #13 has two flashbacks with the Hand in them, and I'm trying to figure out where the Hand (as a group) appeared before and after each flashback.

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The first is shortly before Fantastic Four #1. According to the Hand's OHOTMU profile, around this time:

- in 1972, a clash between Hand and Chaste leads a ninja named Drake to accidentally kill her own father; she quits the Hand shortly thereafter.

- a Hand ninja saves a young Elektra from being killed. Elektra is impressed by the ninja's sai. (No jokes.)

- Elektra, rejected by the Chaste, tries to infiltrate the Hand but falls under their power.

Obviously the 1972 story occurs before this Wolverine FB. (Right now, the FF debuted in, what, 1998 or thereabouts?)

But the next two scenes -- a ninja saves Elektra; Elektra joins the Hand -- according to Elektra's profile, those both occur shortly after her father is killed. Which is when Matt Murdock was in school with her. Which means, before he became Daredevil.

So, these scenes occur before 1964's DD #1. But how far before? Are they before, or after, Fantastic Four #1??

Also, which issues are being referenced here? Drake isn't in the MCP, but the internet tells me that she's from Elektra v2 #16-21. But which issue(s) contain the flashback with her killing her father and leaving the Hand?

A Hand ninja saving Elektra ... no idea where that's from.

Elektra joining the Hand ... another unknown. We probably first heard about it in Frank Miller's initial DD/Elektra story arc -- but where did we first SEE it on-panel?

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Okay, flashback #2. Wolverine bursts into the Hand's lair and kills everyone he sees. This one occurs during the W3 "Enemy of the State/Agent of SHIELD" arc. I have chronologies for the undead Hand ninjas seen in that arc -- the trouble is, those are creepy undead ninjas! And the ones seen in this flashback are regular Hand ninjas!

I'd like to point out when the last and next times *regular* Hand ninjas appeared, relative to this flashback. According to the OHOTMU entry, that was:

before: new Hand branch founded by shape-shifter Takashi supported politician Lyle Crawford, but Elektra killed Takashi. Months later, Pain, Shadow and Thought attacked Elektra and killed Drake.

after: the Hand sought unions with the Yashida clan and Hydra, though Ronin (Echo) undermined these efforts.

So ... what issues are those stories from?

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Thanks in advance!! Looking forward to learning more about the ever-wily Hand...

-Jeph!

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Re: Hand ninja experts unite!

Post by JephYork » Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:15 am

For FB #2: it looks like the "regular" Hand next appear in Mighty Avengers #16, an issue set just before New Avengers #1. The issue shows "Elektra" (Skrull) finding the demoralized Hand and taking over, promising to revitalize them after their crushing defeat by Wolverine.

That's one down -- and three to go. Can anyone help?

-Jeph!

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Re: Hand ninja experts unite!

Post by Midnighter » Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:33 am

A Hand ninja saving Elektra ... no idea where that's from.
I think it's from Elektra -1 (Flashback month).

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Re: Hand ninja experts unite!

Post by Chris McCarver » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:12 am

Sent this to you via email, Jeph, repeating here for redundancy and solicitation of opinions:

Per the Appendix site, the killing of Drake's father occurred in a flashback in ELEK2 19.

Elektra's leaving the Chaste to infiltrate the Hand only to end up falling under their influence was seen in fbs in DD 190.

Fairly certain the moment where Elektra joins the Hand is post-FF 1, but nailing the placement for certain's a bit tricky. According to M/SAGA 1, Matt and Foggy appear in a one-panel flashback studying in the college library and this is indicated to be placed on the very day of the FF's fateful space launch. The MCP places this flashback prior to Matt meeting Elektra in fbs in DD 168, which would definitely place Matt and Elektra's meeting post-FF 1. What's making this not a 100% clinch (anyone feel free to chime in): the M/SAGA flashback appears to be an rfb and direct replication of a panel from DD 1 (specifically page 10, panel 3) which in and of itself is placed after not only Matt meets Elektra but after the death of Elektra's father as seen in the DD 168 fbs, which would suggest a pre-FF 1 placement. So whether the M/SAGA flashback was deemed to be a new fb (and its similarity to the DD 1 fb ruled a coincidence) or it truly is an rfb from DD 1 is the deciding factor there.
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Re: Hand ninja experts unite!

Post by JephYork » Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:52 pm

Well, let's see here. According to Daredevil's OHOTMU profile, he dated Elektra while in college. After college, he and Foggy went to law school. At "the end of their final year", Jack Murdock was killed and Matt became Daredevil.

Law school takes three years. So Matt and Elektra dated more than three years prior to DD #1. Fantastic Four #1 was also published three years beforehand -- but since Marvel time moves slower, FF #1 must have occurred less than three years before DD #1.

Ergo, Matt dated Elektra before the events of Fantastic Four #1.

-Jeph!

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