Two Elizabeth Braddocks?

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Two Elizabeth Braddocks?

Post by Col_Fury » Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:33 pm

We have two listings for Elizabeth Braddock, one under her real name and another under her code name:

BRADDOCK, ELIZABETH
XCAL2 3-FB
CB 28-FB
{CB 14-FB}

PSYLOCKE/ELIZABETH BRADDOCK
XCAL2 3-FB
XCAL@ 2-FB
UX 464-FB
{CB 8}


Her brother Captain Britain also appears in all of these flashbacks:

CAPTAIN BRITAIN/BRIAN BRADDOCK
XCAL2 3-FB
XCAL@ 2-FB
UX 464-FB
DDS 1-FB
CB 28-FB
CB 14-FB
DDS 2-FB


There's not another listing for Brian Braddock. There aren't two Elizabeth Braddocks, right? One one of these isn't from an alternate reality or something, right? Shouldn't these be merged into one listing, based on her brother's chronology:

PSYLOCKE/ELIZABETH BRADDOCK
XCAL2 3-FB
XCAL@ 2-FB
UX 464-FB
*CB 28-FB
*CB 14-FB
{CB 8}
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Re: Two Elizabeth Braddocks?

Post by DonCampbell » Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:49 pm

Brian Braddock's brother James and his sister Elizabeth were both named after their parents, Sir James Braddock and his wife, Lady Elizabeth Braddock. I just checked with the Marvel Comics Database wiki and Lady Elizabeth Braddock is listed as appearing in FBs in the two issues of CB on your list.

So, yes, there ARE (or were) two Elizabeth Braddocks in Reality-616.

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Re: Two Elizabeth Braddocks?

Post by Col_Fury » Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:55 pm

Ah, I didn't think about that possibility. Thanks!

Does Psylocke appear in either CB 14-FB or CB 28-FB?
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Re: Two Elizabeth Braddocks?

Post by DonCampbell » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:59 am

Col_Fury wrote:Ah, I didn't think about that possibility. Thanks!

Does Psylocke appear in either CB 14-FB or CB 28-FB?
Again, according to the Marvel Comics Database wiki, no, she doesn't. Brian, James Sr. and Lady Elizabeth appear in flashbacks in both issues while Jamie appears in flashbacks in CB 14 only. No sign of Betsy.

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Re: Two Elizabeth Braddocks?

Post by loki » Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:38 am


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Re: Two Elizabeth Braddocks?

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:53 am

Thanks for the link, Loki! I see you wrote this article (and related articles), nice work!

I see that CB 29-FB is mentioned in both Captain Britain's parents' histories there, but there's no mention of CB 28-FB. So it looks like we at the MCP (and the wiki Don mentioned) got the issue wrong? Also, there's no mention of Captain Britain's brother in either CB 28-FB or CB 29-FB.

It also looks like we at the MCP have an incomplete chronology for Captain Britain's father and the Mastermind computer.

ALSO, your article mentions that Captain Britain's father was a member of the Captain Britain Corps. This was recently referenced again in Uncanny X-Force volume 1. And yet, we have no mention at the MCP of Brian's father being a Captain Britain.

I haven't fully read all of these related articles yet (I'm running out the door at the moment), but I seem to remember Psylocke being a member of the Captain Britain Corps at some point. Was that just one story where she was helping out or something, or was she actually a full member of the Corps at some point?
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Re: Two Elizabeth Braddocks?

Post by DonCampbell » Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:47 am

Col_Fury wrote:Thanks for the link, Loki! I see you wrote this article (and related articles), nice work!

ALSO, your article mentions that Captain Britain's father was a member of the Captain Britain Corps. This was recently referenced again in Uncanny X-Force volume 1. And yet, we have no mention at the MCP of Brian's father being a Captain Britain.

I haven't fully read all of these related articles yet (I'm running out the door at the moment), but I seem to remember Psylocke being a member of the Captain Britain Corps at some point. Was that just one story where she was helping out or something, or was she actually a full member of the Corps at some point?
Originally, there was no indication that there was anything unusual about James Braddock, Sr. besides the fact that he was intelligent enough to design and build the Mastermind computer. It was not until Captain Britain #7 that the Mastermind computer revealed that James Braddock was from Otherworld where he was one of Merlyn's chosen guard and that he had been sent to Earth-616 to "prepare the way." It was also then that Mastermind revealed that Brian's powers as Captain Britain did not come from his uniform. Instead, the suit was an amplifier for powers that were an intrinsic to the half-human Brian and Betsy, powers derived from the Otherworld genes which they had inherited from their father.

As I recall, there was once a discussion on this board about the implications of James being from Otherworld and how it related to the Captain Britain Corps. After all, many of the Corps are other-dimensional counterparts of Brian which means that all of their parents were counterparts as well. So, if James came from Otherworld to Earth-616, where did all the James who fathered the Brian counterparts on other Earths come from? I suggested that there was only one James, the one from Otherworld, and that he was somehow split into many James so that there would be one for each Earth. Other posters preferred the idea that there had always been a James on each Earth in the multiverse and that Merlyn had simply sent the Otherworld James to Earth-616 because the James who was native to this dimension was either too weak to sire the offspring that Merlyn knew would be needed in the future or had died before he could start a family and pass on his genes. However, as far as I know, this theory was never made canon.

Also, Betsy was active as Captain Britain for several months. At first she worked alongside Captain UK as a team but then went solo and was blinded soon after that by Slaymaster, prompting Brian, who had retired to live with Meggan in the lighthouse, to resume being Captain Britain.

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Re: Two Elizabeth Braddocks?

Post by loki » Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:31 pm

DonCampbell wrote:
Col_Fury wrote:Thanks for the link, Loki! I see you wrote this article (and related articles), nice work!

ALSO, your article mentions that Captain Britain's father was a member of the Captain Britain Corps. This was recently referenced again in Uncanny X-Force volume 1. And yet, we have no mention at the MCP of Brian's father being a Captain Britain.

I haven't fully read all of these related articles yet (I'm running out the door at the moment), but I seem to remember Psylocke being a member of the Captain Britain Corps at some point. Was that just one story where she was helping out or something, or was she actually a full member of the Corps at some point?
Originally, there was no indication that there was anything unusual about James Braddock, Sr. besides the fact that he was intelligent enough to design and build the Mastermind computer. It was not until Captain Britain #7 that the Mastermind computer revealed that James Braddock was from Otherworld where he was one of Merlyn's chosen guard and that he had been sent to Earth-616 to "prepare the way." It was also then that Mastermind revealed that Brian's powers as Captain Britain did not come from his uniform. Instead, the suit was an amplifier for powers that were an intrinsic to the half-human Brian and Betsy, powers derived from the Otherworld genes which they had inherited from their father.
Almost, but not quite. Brian's suit was an amplifier, but the powers were not intrinsic to Brian, or inherited from his father or via his father's Otherworld genes. We saw them quite clearly being shifted from his costume to his body when Merlyn rebuilt him after the Fury slew him.
DonCampbell wrote:As I recall, there was once a discussion on this board about the implications of James being from Otherworld and how it related to the Captain Britain Corps. After all, many of the Corps are other-dimensional counterparts of Brian which means that all of their parents were counterparts as well. So, if James came from Otherworld to Earth-616, where did all the James who fathered the Brian counterparts on other Earths come from? I suggested that there was only one James, the one from Otherworld, and that he was somehow split into many James so that there would be one for each Earth. Other posters preferred the idea that there had always been a James on each Earth in the multiverse and that Merlyn had simply sent the Otherworld James to Earth-616 because the James who was native to this dimension was either too weak to sire the offspring that Merlyn knew would be needed in the future or had died before he could start a family and pass on his genes. However, as far as I know, this theory was never made canon.
It has been confirmed - there was a James Braddock who was killed, and the Otherworld Sir James replaced him. The handbooks confirmed this, reconciling that while we'd been told in one story that Sir James had come from Otherworld and purchased Braddock Manor just after WWII, another had stated that Braddock Manor had been the family home for centuries. Sir James presumably bought back the family home after the Braddocks had been forced to sell it (selling family homes became quite common amongst the British nobility during the 20th century, often down to failing finances combined with crippling levels of inheritance tax).

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Re: Two Elizabeth Braddocks?

Post by loki » Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:47 pm

Col_Fury wrote:Thanks for the link, Loki! I see you wrote this article (and related articles), nice work!
Thanks.
Col_Fury wrote:I see that CB 29-FB is mentioned in both Captain Britain's parents' histories there, but there's no mention of CB 28-FB. So it looks like we at the MCP (and the wiki Don mentioned) got the issue wrong? Also, there's no mention of Captain Britain's brother in either CB 28-FB or CB 29-FB.
I'll have to double check. It might be me who has it wrong, rather than the MCP. It may well be that I mistyped 29 rather than 28 for that fb. Fairly sure Jamie doesn't turn up in either issue though.
Col_Fury wrote:ALSO, your article mentions that Captain Britain's father was a member of the Captain Britain Corps. This was recently referenced again in Uncanny X-Force volume 1. And yet, we have no mention at the MCP of Brian's father being a Captain Britain.
He was a member of the Corps, but not necessarily Captain Britain. I know I'm fighting a losing battle on this one, but for years only the fans ever called them the Captain Britain Corps; the comics just referred to the Corps. After all, most of the members are not called Captain Britain, and don't think of themselves as versions of CB - rather, he is a weird alternate universe version of them. Yes, they've been called the CB Corps in the comics a couple of times more recently, but that makes sense given Brian has now been their leader on and off. Anyway, going back to Sir James, there's no reason to believe he ever used the name Captain Britain. He could have been Squire England, Lord Prydain, etc. for all we know.
Col_Fury wrote:I haven't fully read all of these related articles yet (I'm running out the door at the moment), but I seem to remember Psylocke being a member of the Captain Britain Corps at some point. Was that just one story where she was helping out or something, or was she actually a full member of the Corps at some point?
She was a member. The Corps is very different from most organisations when it comes to membership - as Captain Britain demonstrated, you can be a member without knowing you are a member, without interacting with other members, and without Merlyn or Roma being seen to have any part in your becoming a version of CB (because they frequently do so from behind the scenes).

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Re: Two Elizabeth Braddocks?

Post by Russ Chappell » Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:43 pm

DonCampbell wrote:So, yes, there ARE (or were) two Elizabeth Braddocks in Reality-616.
Sounds like Psylocke should be Elizabeth Braddock II.

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Re: Two Elizabeth Braddocks?

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:55 pm

loki wrote:there's no reason to believe he ever used the name Captain Britain. He could have been Squire England, Lord Prydain, etc. for all we know.
Good point. Linda McQuillan goes by Captain U.K. after all, and she's a "Captain Britain."
loki wrote:
Col_Fury wrote:I haven't fully read all of these related articles yet (I'm running out the door at the moment), but I seem to remember Psylocke being a member of the Captain Britain Corps at some point. Was that just one story where she was helping out or something, or was she actually a full member of the Corps at some point?
She was a member. The Corps is very different from most organisations when it comes to membership - as Captain Britain demonstrated, you can be a member without knowing you are a member, without interacting with other members, and without Merlyn or Roma being seen to have any part in your becoming a version of CB (because they frequently do so from behind the scenes).
DonCampbell wrote:Also, Betsy was active as Captain Britain for several months. At first she worked alongside Captain UK as a team but then went solo and was blinded soon after that by Slaymaster, prompting Brian, who had retired to live with Meggan in the lighthouse, to resume being Captain Britain.
So she replaced Brian *AS* Captain Britain?

Did she go by the name Captain Britain?
Russ Chappell wrote:Sounds like Psylocke should be Elizabeth Braddock II.
OR, Psylocke's mother should be Lady Elizabeth Braddock?
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Re: Two Elizabeth Braddocks?

Post by DonCampbell » Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:31 pm

Col_Fury wrote:
DonCampbell wrote:Also, Betsy was active as Captain Britain for several months. At first she worked alongside Captain UK as a team but then went solo and was blinded soon after that by Slaymaster, prompting Brian, who had retired to live with Meggan in the lighthouse, to resume being Captain Britain.
So she replaced Brian *AS* Captain Britain?

Did she go by the name Captain Britain?
Yes, she did. There's a flashback scene in Captain Britain #13 (as reprinted in the CB TPB) in which Linda and Betsy have stopped a robbery and "Captain UK" congratulates "Captain Britain" on how she handled the thugs.
Col_Fury wrote:
Russ Chappell wrote:Sounds like Psylocke should be Elizabeth Braddock II.
OR, Psylocke's mother should be Lady Elizabeth Braddock?
So, the separate listings for the two characters would be for PSYLOCKE/ELIZABETH BRADDOCK and BRADDOCK, LADY ELIZABETH? Are titles generally included in listing headings?

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