VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:53 am

Russ Chappell wrote:Doesn't matter that he isn't called Royal Turntable in BS 31. Likewise, if he first appears without a name in BS 31 and is in the next consecutive 100 issues of BS, before finally receiving a name in BS 132.
Good point. Cyclops' son first appeared in UX 201 but didn't get a name until UX 239. It's not like we list him as "SUMMERS BABY" until UX 239.

OK, but what about when we run into things like TOXIN?

TOXIN [DEVIANT]
TOXIN II/PATRICK MULLIGAN
TOXIN [SYMBIOTE]

The Deviant Toxin appeared first, then Patrick Mulligan, then the Toxin symbiote. Would the Toxin symbiote be TOXIN III? Also, Eddie Brock has been wearing the Toxin symbiote recently, so the suit has made appearances seperate from Patrick Mulligan, meaning we really should split up the listing between TOXIN II and the symbiote.

Maybe just drop the brackets around the symbiotes?

TOXIN [DEVIANT]
TOXIN II/PATRICK MULLIGAN
TOXIN III [SYMBIOTE]
TOXIN IV/EDDIE BROCK

Or

TOXIN [DEVIANT]
TOXIN II/PATRICK MULLIGAN
TOXIN III/EDDIE BROCK
TOXIN SYMBIOTE

If we go with that:

VENOM/EDDIE BROCK
VENOM II/PATRICIA ROBERTSON
VENOM III/ANGELO FORUNATO
VENOM IV/MACDONALD GARGAN
VENOM SYMBIOTE
VENOM SYMBIOTE II [CLONE]

CARNAGE/CLETUS KASADY
CARNAGE SYMBIOTE
CARNAGE SYMBIOTE II

etc.
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Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by Somebody » Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:31 am

⇑ Definitely the last set, Fury.
Col_Fury wrote:Using the green one as an example, here's how it would look like with a chronology:

GREEN SYMBIOTE
See also Carl Mach
[...]
See Hybrid symbiote

HYBRID SYMBIOTE
From green symbiote, indigio [sic] symbiote, orange symbiote & violet symbiote
[...]
See Agony, Lasher, Phage & Riot

LASHER [SYMBIOTE]
From Hybrid symbiote
That's not particularly intuitive - how do you get from "green symbiote" to "Lasher" as opposed to "Agony"?

I'll call your own "SUMMERS BABY" example and say the green one needs to be "LASHER" or "LASHER SYMBIOTE" all the way through. Unless you want to rake over the whole Erista fiasco again ;)
Russ Chappell wrote:I would prefer to call it VENOM [SYMBIOTE], and list the chronology there.
But the symbiote isn't "Venom" - it doesn't have a name as such - the host PLUS the symbiote are. Just as Claudette St. Croix wasn't M and Nicole St. Croix wasn't M, *but the two merged were M* and our listing reflects that.

It's described as "the Venom symbiote" repeatedly. That's as close to a name as it gets, so it should be under "VENOM SYMBIOTE".
Russ Chappell wrote:In the case of Venom, the name is Venom, regardless of who the symbiote bonds with.
Not true - in V:SA 3, the symbiote briefly bonds to a random trucker, and distains him as "weak and scared", saying that it needs to get back to Eddie so it can be Venom again (again, see attached). In Planet of the Symbiotes, it bonds with Ben Reilly, who doesn't call himself Venom (or Spider-Venom). And as mentioned already, Ann Weying was "She-Venom" when bonded rather than just "Venom".
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VenomSANameofthesymbiote.jpg
V:SA 2 (1), 3 (5 excerpt), 3 (6:4-7:3) and 3 (7:4:1-8:1:1)
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Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by Russ Chappell » Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:30 am

Somebody wrote:It's described as "the Venom symbiote" repeatedly. That's as close to a name as it gets,
Not true. It's described as "Venom" much more frequently than "the Venom symbiote." How often has THAT_THING crashed through a plate-glass window, only to have Spider-Man exclaim "Oh, no! It's the Venom symbiote!"?

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Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by JephYork » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:07 pm

Well -- in fairness -- how many times has the symbiote crashed through a plate-glass window, and Spider-Man exclaimed "oh no, it's Venom!"?

Really, how many times? Let's not ask leading questions with assumed answers, let's count.

Going by memory, it seems to me that Spider-Man's most common reaction was "oh no, it's the symbiote!"

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Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by Somebody » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:29 pm

Often just "the symbiote" (whichever one is most apposite at the time), yeah, but also "the Venom/etc symbiote". I've never, ever seen him refer to just the symbiote without a host as Venom (various names, including but not limited to "the alien", the "alien symbiote", "the creature", "his other" and "the Venom symbiote", but never "Venom" alone).
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Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by Leoparis » Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:39 pm

"Venom symbiote" is better than symbiote (Venom) but I guess we'll need both entries.

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Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:28 pm

Somebody wrote:That's not particularly intuitive - how do you get from "green symbiote" to "Lasher" as opposed to "Agony"?
True. Hmn.
Somebody wrote:I'll call your own "SUMMERS BABY" example and say the green one needs to be "LASHER" or "LASHER SYMBIOTE" all the way through.
It may just be a technicality, but it wasn't "named" Lasher until after it was split from the Hybrid symbiote, the process of which changed it (I guess lobotomized would be the closest thing to call it). I'm thinking this is closer to Scott Washington (Guardsman #6) listed seperately but linked to Hybrid II; he had one job (a Guardsman) but took a new name (Hybrid) after a big change in his life (when he became bonded to a symbiote).

Howsabout

LASHER/GREEN [SYMBIOTE]
From Hybrid symbiote
CARNAGE USA 2


OR

LASHER [GREEN SYMBIOTE]
From Hybrid symbiote
CARNAGE USA 2


OR

LASHER/GREEN SYMBIOTE (I'm leaning toward this one)
From Hybrid symbiote
CARNAGE USA 2


OR

LASHER [SYMBIOTE]
From Hybrid symbiote
CARNAGE USA 2


:mrgreen:
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Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:49 am

As far as I can tell, here's where we're sitting at the moment:

AGONY II/VIOLET SYMBIOTE
From Hybrid symbiote
[CARNAGE2 2]

BROCK, EDDIE ALLAN CHARLES
From Venom
M/KSM 7
M/KSM 8
SENSM2 38-FB
ASM 533
SENSM2 38
SENSM2 39
ASM 568-FB
ASM 568
ASM 568/2
ASM 569
See Anti-Venom

CARNAGE/CLETUS KASADY

ASM 359
*See also Carnage symbiote
ASM 360

WTS 13
*See also Carnage symbiote II
WTS 14


CARNAGE II/COL. JOHN JAMESON
See Col. John Jameson

CARNAGE COSMIC/NORRIN RADD
See Silver Surfer

CARNAGE SYMBIOTE
ASM 345
ASM 359
See also Carnage
ASM 360
ASM 361
ASM 362
ASM 363
ASMU 1
WOSM 101
ASM 378
S-M 35
PPTSS 201
WOSM 102
ASM 379
S-M 36
PPTSS 202
WOSM 103
ASM 380
S-M 37
PPTSS 203
ASMU 2
ASM@ 28
WOSM 117
ASM 394
PPTSS 217
V:CU 1
V:CU 2
V:CU 3
V:CU 4
ASMSS 1
S-MSS 1
VSS 1
PPTSSSS 1
WOSMSS 1
PPTSS 223
ASM 403
C:MB
ASM 410
See also Col. John Jameson
See also Spider-Man II
S-M 67
PPTSS 233
C:WL
V:OT 2
V:OT 3
ASM 430
See also Silver Surfer
ASM 431
PPSM2 10

CARNAGE SYMBIOTE II
See also Carnage
WTS 14
VVC 1
VVC 2
VVC 3
VVC 4
ALIAS 26-BTS
NA 2

*INDIGO SYMBIOTE/TREVOR (change name to COLE, TREVOR)
*See also indigo symbiote
V:LP 4

V:SA 4
**V:ACS 1/2 (delete)

*VIOLET SYMBIOTE/LESLIE (change name to GESNERIA, LESLIE)
*See also violet symbiote
V:LP 4

V:SA 3
*V:ACS 1/2 (delete)

GREEN SYMBIOTE
See also Carl Mach
V:LP 4
V:LP 5
V:SA 2-FB
V:SA 1
V:SA 2
V:SA 3
V:SA 4
V:ACS 1/2
See Hybrid symbiote

*ORANGE SYMBIOTE/RAMON (change name to HERNANDEZ, RAMON)
*See also orange symbiote
V:LP 4

V:SA 3
**V:SA 4 (delete)
**V:ACS 1/2 (delete)

*HYBRID II (change name to HYBRID II/SCOTT WASHINGTON)
*From Scott Washington
*See also Hybrid symbiote
V:ACS 2/2

V:HUNTED 3/2
*[VENOM2 15]

HYBRID SYMBIOTE
From green symbiote, indigo symbiote, orange symbiote & violet symbiote
See also Hybrid II
V:ACS 2/2
V:ACS 3/2
V:ACS 4/2
V:HUNTED 1/2
V:HUNTED 2/2
V:HUNTED 3/2
[VENOM2 15]
See Agony II, Lasher II, Phage II & Riot III

INDIGO SYMBIOTE
See also Trevor Cole
V:LP 4
V:LP 5
V:SA 2-FB
V:SA 1
V:SA 2
V:SA 3
V:SA 4
V:ACS 1/2
See Hybrid symbiote

JAMESON, COL. JOHN (Also MAN-WOLF)

ASM 410
*See also Carnage symbiote
S-M 67


LASHER II/GREEN SYMBIOTE
From Hybrid symbiote
[CARNAGE2 2]

*GREEN SYMBIOTE/CARL (change name to MACH, CARL)
*See also green symbiote
V:LP 4

V:SA 4
**V:ACS 1/2 (delete)

NAVY SYMBIOTE
See also George Strickland
V:HUNTED 2

ORANGE SYMBIOTE
See also Ramon Hernandez
V:LP 4
V:LP 5
V:SA 2-FB
V:SA 1
V:SA 2
V:SA 3
V:SA 4
V:ACS 1/2
See Hybrid symbiote

PHAGE II/ORANGE SYMBIOTE
From Hybrid symbiote
[CARNAGE2 2]

RIOT III/INDIGO SYMBIOTE
From Hybrid symbiote
[CARNAGE2 2]

ROBERTSON, PATRICIA

VENOM 10
*See Venom II
**VENOM 14 (delete rest of chronology)

SCORPION III/MACDONALD GARGAN

M/KSM 9
**See also Venom (delete)
*See Venom IV
**M/KSM 10 (delete rest of chronology)

*YELLOW SYMBIOTE/DONNA (change name to SCREAM/DONNA DIEGO)
See also Scream symbiote
V:LP 4

V:TC 3
*[VENOM2 15]

SCREAM SYMBIOTE
See also Scream
V:LP 4
V:LP 5
WOSM 118
WOSM 119
S-M 52
S-M 53
V:SA 1
V:SA 2
V:SA 3
V:SA 4
V:HUNTED 1
V:HUNTED 2
V:HUNTED 3
V:TC 1
V:TC 2
V:TC 3
[VENOM2 15]

SHE-VENOM/ANN WEYING
See Ann Weying

SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD

ASM 430
*See also Carnage symbiote
ASM 431


SPIDER-CARNAGE/BEN REILLY [SPIDER-MAN CLONE]
See Spider-Man II

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER

M/SHSW 8
*See also Venom symbiote
M/SHSW 9


SPIDER-MAN II/BEN REILLY [SPIDER-MAN CLONE]

ASM 410
*See also Carnage symbiote
S-M 67


*NAVY SYMBIOTE/GEORGE (change name to STRICKLAND, GEORGE)
*See also navy symbiote
V:HUNTED 2

TOXIN II/PATRICK MULLIGAN
VVC 1
*See also Toxin symbiote
VVC 2


TOXIN SYMBIOTE
See also Toxin II
VVC 2
VVC 3
VVC 4
TOXIN 1
TOXIN 2
TOXIN 3
TOXIN 4
TOXIN 5
TOXIN 6

WEYING, ANN

V:STA 2
*See also Venom symbiote
V:STA 3


*BROCK, EDDIE ALLAN CHARLES (change name to VENOM/EDDIE ALLAN CHARLES BROCK)
*See also Venom (delete)
V:SOD -1

UO 7 (7)
*See also Venom symbiote
ASM@ 26/2 (3 - 8)

M/KSM 6
*See Eddie Brock
**M/KSM 7 (delete rest of chronology)

VENOM II/PATRICIA ROBERTSON
From Patricia Robertson
See also Venom symbiote II
VENOM 14
VENOM 15
VENOM 16
VENOM 17
VENOM 18

*FORTUNATO, ANGELO (change name to VENOM III/ANGELO FORUNATO)
M/KSM 6
*See also Venom symbiote
M/KSM 7
M/KSM 8

VENOM IV/MACDONALD GARGAN
From Scorpion III
See also Venom symbiote
M/KSM 10
M/KSM 11
M/KSM 12
TB2 1-FB
SECWAR 3
SECWAR 4
SECWAR 5-FB
CS:CS /6-BTS
BEYOND 1-BTS
BEYOND 2-BTS
BEYOND 4-BTS
BEYOND 5-BTS
BEYOND 6
SMFAM2 3/2
CW:CS 1
CW 4
CW 5
CW 6
CW 7 (1 - 3)
MSM2 14-FB-FB
CW:FL 10
CW 7 (8 - 12:1)
ASM 538
CW:I
NO4 2
NO4 3
TB 110
TB 111
TB 112
WWH:ADAMCON 1
WWH:ADAMCON 2
TB:DM-FB
TB 113
TB 114
TB 115
TB:BP (1 - 7)
SUB-M3 2-FB
SUB-M3 3-FB
SUB-M3 4-FB
TB:BP (14 - 22)
PEN:REL 1
PEN:REL 3
TB 116
TB 118
TB 119
TB 120
TB 121-BTS
TB:II
TB:RM
MK6 22
ASM 568
ASM 569
ASM 570
ASM 571
ASM 572
ASM 573
MK6 23
MK6 24
MK6 25
[TB 125]
[DARKA 1-FB]
NA 48
NA 49 (1 - 19)
[DARKA 1] ~ NA 49 (20 - 22)
[DARKA 2 (1 - 8)]
[DARKA 2 (9 - 10)] ~ NA 50 (10)
NA 50 (11 - 19)
[DARKA 2 (11 - 13)]
NA 50 (20 - 37)
[DARKA 2 (14 - 22)]
[W:O 34]
FCBD09:A 1
[S-H5 1]
[MA 21]
CA5 48
T 600
WARM2 11
[DARKW 75]
[HERC5 128]
ASM 596
[DARKA 6]
UTOPIA
[X 226]
UX 513
[DARKA 7]
UX 514
[DARKA 8]
EXODUS
[DARKA 9]
[DARKA 12]
NA 56
NA 57
NA 58
NA 59
NA 60
CA:REBORN 1
CA:REBORN 2
DRL:A 1
NA@ 3
[MA 32]
[SIEGE 3 (2 - 5)]
NA 63 (1 - 2)
[SIEGE 3 (8:1)] ~ [A:I 34 (13:3 - 14:1)]
NA 63 (3 - 9)
[SIEGE:SM 1]
[SIEGE 3 (16:2 - 16:3)]
NA 64
[SIEGE 4 (24:1 - 24:2)] ~ [DARKA 16 (2:1 - 2:2)-FB]
[DARKA 16 (2:4 - 11)-FB]

*VENOM [SYMBIOTE] (change name to VENOM SYMBIOTE)
SMF2 1-FB
SPECSM3 4-FB
VSS 1-FB
*M/SHSW 8
*See also Spider-Man
*M/SHSW 9
*M/SHSW 10
*M/SHSW 11
*M/SHSW 12
*{ASM 252 (1 - 7)} (first appearance)
*ASM 252 (8) ~ M/TU 141 (13 - 14:3)
*ASM 252 (9 - 22)
*PPTSS 90
*M/TU 141 (14:4 - 22)
*1985 5
*1985 6
*1985 6-FB
*PPTSS 91 (1 - 7)
*ASM 253
*PPTSS 91 (8 - 22)
*H2 300
*ASM 254
*PPTSS 92
*M/TU 142
*M/TU 143
*ASM 255
*M/TU@ 7
*PPTSS 93
*M/TU 144
*M/GN 17
*PPTSS 94
*PPTSS 95
*M/TU 145
*KOP2 6
*ASM 256 (1 - 14)
*VSS 1/2-FB
*ASM 256 (15 - 22)
*ASM 257
*ASM 258 (1 - 10)
*M/TU 146
*PPTSS@ 4
*PPTSS@ 4/2
*ASM 258 (11 - 23) (not the first appearance)
S-H2 29
ASM 259

UO 7 (7)
*See also Venom
ASM@ 26/2 (3 - 8)

V:STA 2
*See also Ann Weying
V:STA 3

M/KSM 6
*See also Venom III
M/KSM 7
M/KSM 8
M/KSM 9
*See also Venom IV
M/KSM 10


*VENOM II (change name to VENOM SYMBIOTE II [CLONE])

VENOM 10
*See also Patricia Robertson
VENOM 14


VIOLET SYMBIOTE
See also Leslie Gesneria
V:LP 4
V:LP 5
V:SA 2-FB
V:SA 1
V:SA 2
V:SA 3
V:ACS 1/2
See Hybrid symbiote

How's that look?
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Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by michaelyuri » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:19 am

Col_Fury wrote:How's that look?
I generally like the way you've listed and named the entries, but I have a few questions about the cross-references.

Specifically, "See" and "See also" seem a little confusing to me. Right now, the MCP uses "See" for two related but distinct purposes: (1) to indicate that the character is listed by the MCP under a different name, and (2) to indicate that a listing is continued under a different name. I think it would be helpful to distinguish these. Right now, when a listing is continued from a previous name, it's preceded by a "From" link, which is very transparent. I think the second type of "See" link should be changed to "To" or "Go to" or something similarly analogous.

I also find "See also" a little confusing. It wasn't immediately clear to me what that meant. Unlike the "see" links, it's not something you need to follow to find (or continue) the chronology you're interested in. Instead, it's just providing additional information about the current listing (e.g., if you're looking at the entry for Spider-Man, you see the point at which he bonds with the Venom Symbiote, or vice versa). I would suggest changing "See also" to "Merges with" or something similar that makes clear what the relationship is. It also seems odd to me to include only the start point. I suggest also adding an "Unmerges from" entry to indicate where the two listings diverge again.

Just my two cents as a casual user of the site.

Incidentally, my personal preference would be to not split a single character's listing over multiple entries (thus eliminating almost all "To" and "From" links), but based on the "Naming conventions" thread, it looks like I'm on the losing side of that issue. That being the case, it would be nice to make the divided listings as user-friendly as possible.
-Mike

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Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by Russ Chappell » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:42 pm

My personal preference would be to do away with the "See also", as opposed to adding "merges with" and "unmerges with."

Sometimes I get this queasy feeling that we're deviating from our mandate. It really shouldn't matter to us when a character's status changes. It doesn't matter when they marry, when they die, when they change identies. It doesn't matter what their race is, and when you get right down to it, it doesn't even matter what their "real" name is, underneath the mask. Some of these things we use to help us identify which character we're talking about, in the cases of multiple iterations, and that's fine.

But there are two kinds of people who use the Project. Those who have the books, and those who don't. For those who have the books, it's readily apparent whether the character is dead, or a skrull, or whether it's Ant-Man or Giant-Man (this week), because they can just go to the book and see for themselves. For those people who don't have the books, none of these questions really matter.

The whole purpose behind the project is to identify What Comes Next? What's the previous appearance? What's the next appearance? Everything else is just...clutter.

And sometimes, I just feel like we spend of lot of time and energy debating things that are really outside of our raison d'être. And at those times, it makes me want to pull back a little. Kind of like removing the "See Also's." Honestly I'm not sure why we have them.

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Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:26 am

For some reason I was under the impression that "See also" was for related/linked characters (a bad assumption I made when seeing Janus II and Golden Angel here. A little bit of research now tells me that these two characters were merged at one point (like the St. Croix sisters were merged as M, or Penance, depending on when you're talking about). Or did one possess the other? I'm not sure, actually). Of course, now that I'm thinking about "See also" more directly, it's not like we have "See also" in Falcon's and Redwing's listings, or in Captain Marvel's and Rick Jones' listings, or etc. etc.

In the case of the various Venoms, whenever a character takes the Venom name (like Brock or Gargan) it's fairly obvious which symbiote they're using (there's a character called Venom and the Venom symbiote appears in the same issue, and hey, the before and after chronologies line up). The same with Carnage, Hybrid or Toxin, really.

The problem comes in when you're looking at the color symbiotes. Without a "See also" link (and without one of the comics), how would someone determine which color symbiote Ramon Hernandez used? Or who the host was for the orange symbiote? But then again, how important is it for us to point that out?

Also, the color symbiotes make appearances seperate from their hosts, so it's not like we should just list them as one character. After Ramon dies the orange symbiote is merged with the other three color symbiotes to make the Hybrid symbiote. Ramon's not merged in there. But this is a different problem then "who uses the orange symbiote," and we have a solution for merged characters (see M and the St. Croix sisters). So we're back to "how important is it for us to point out that Ramon Hernandez used the orange symbiote?" Well, again, it's not like we point out that Falcon and Redwing work together often.

As for merged characters, Venom isn't like M and the St. Croix sisters. The St. Croix sisters were physically merged to make the M character (like the four color symbiotes were merged into one symbiote to make the Hybrid symbiote). On the other hand, Eddie Brock uses a symbiote to be Venom and later a different symbiote to be Toxin; similarily, Jim Rhodes uses a suit of armor to be Iron Man and later a different suit of armor to be War Machine. It's just that the symbiotes are sentient, so they get listings.

So really, I see Venom and the symbiote as a "team" more like Falcon and Redwing rather than a merger like the St. Croix sisters.

Oops. This went on a little longer than intended. I guess my point is I can see the merit in doing away with the "See also" notation, but I also understand the temptation in using it.
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