IM 315-317

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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lettsmonster
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IM 315-317

Post by lettsmonster » Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:16 pm

Hello, I am currently reading all the Iron Man appearances from 1995. Having just read IM 315-317, I notice that it is a self-contained trilogy in which Tony Stark travels to Russia to open a new Stark Enterprises factory. He is accompanied by the Black Widow and battles the Titanium Man with the assistance of the Crimson Dynamo. However, in the Iron Man chronology, I notice three issues between IM 315 and IM 316 -- F/A 2 FB BTS, FW 11 and FW 12. Reading IM315 and IM 316, I can see that the last page of IM 315 is repeated as the splash page of IM 316, no break for the three issues listed in between.

In FW 11, Iron Man and the other members of Force Works are in Slorenia investigating ethnic cleansing reported by War Machine. On page 11, we see a flashback of the Force Works members voting, in Stark's absence, to go to Slorenia. Tony had not yet returned from Russia.

In IM 317, on page 8, we see the Scarlet Witch, US Agent, and Spider-Woman calling the Black Widow in Russia to see if any help is required. This would also appear to be before the trip to Slorenia in FW11 and FW12.

I don't own F/A 2 (yet!), so I am not sure where that exactly fits into IM 315-317. But it appears to me that FW11 and FW12, at least, probably appear after IM 317.

Thanks for listening!

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Re: IM 315-317

Post by Paul Bourcier » Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:08 am

Thanks, lettsmonster. You are correct. There can't be a break between IM 315 and 316. My notes place FW 11-12 before IM 315. In F/A 2-FB, Stark makes a Fury LMD behind the scenes a "year" before the main story. I can't place F/A 2-FB definitively, but it shouldn't be during IM 315-317.
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Re: IM 315-317

Post by lettsmonster » Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:33 pm

Of course this is also going to affect the chronologies of the other members of Force Works.

When looking at the chronologies of US Agent, Scarlet Witch, and Spider-Woman, all three presently appear in FW 11 before IM 317.

In IM 317, all three characters appear on page 8, attempting to contact Iron Man while he is in Russia, offering any assistance he might need.

In FW 11, page 11, Spider-Woman and Tony Stark share a panel in which they are discussing his trip to Russia. It seems as if by looking at these two pages in each issue that IM 317 should precede FW11 in all three chronologies.

Thanks!

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Re: IM 315-317

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:49 am

Lettsmonster, would you be able to provide a chronology of events involving the interrelated War Machine, Iron Man, and Force Works issues from this period, that is, a page/panel rundown of the issues involved, all in chronological order with plot summaries and character appearances noted for each segment?

(Oh, and please ignore the page numbers as printed in the comics; instead use the actual story page numbers.)

Thanks.
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Re: IM 315-317

Post by lettsmonster » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:32 pm

No problem, give me a day or two and you will have it.

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Re: IM 315-317

Post by Paul Bourcier » Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:59 pm

Great! Thanks!
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Post by lettsmonster » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:40 pm

WARM 14

This issue begins with an unconscious War Machine waking up chained up with no idea where he is. Quickly escaping from his captivity and rocketing to the sky, his GPS resets and he finds himself in Tblunka, capital city of the Baltic nation of Slorenia. He immediately spies his kidnapper, Locomotive Breath, an armored foe he had fought in WARM 13. Locomotive Breath is not seeking conflict, yet instead reveals himself to be a native Slorene and requests assistance from War Machine. Slorenia is apparently in the midst of a brutal civil war between the majority Slorenes and the minority Dudaks, and Locomotive Breath wishes to help end it.
Reluctantly, War Machine tours the city with Locomotive Breath as his guide, ostensibly to view the horrors of the civil war. In their travels they witness firsthand the violence of the Slorenes against the Dudaks, and end a minor conflict. But upon travelling to the Winter Palace, the old seat of government in the foothills of the city, War Machine is attacked by Black Brigade, the armored defender of the Slorene majority. Subsequently, he is also deserted by Locomotive Breath.
The true purpose of Locomotive Breath is revealed as he searches for and finds the Eternal Triptych, the ancient source of power of the Dudak minority, believed lost after the events in FW 5. Locomotive Breath needs the power from the Triptych to remain alive, but opening it's clasp, the power destroys him. War Machine barely escapes the resulting explosion. But unknown to him, the explosion remakes Ember, the champion of the Dudak minority.
Dawn finds War Machine in Berlin, a rest stop on his journey back to America. It is here he contacts Force Works. On page 21, the Scarlet Witch answers the call and says that she appreciates the information and is sure Tony will too. He is not there.


IM 315

Stark Enterprises is expanding. With the fall of the Iron Curtain, Tony Stark is about to open the first SE plant in the former Soviet Union. In this issue Tony is travelling to Russia for this very reason, accompanied by the Black Widow as interpreter and guide.
As Stark gives a speech to open the new SE facility, he is attacked by the Titanium Man. Quickly changing into his armor, Iron Man is laid low and about to be ripped in half.


IM 316

The Black Widow intervenes and saves Iron Man's life, but the ensuing battle does not go well. Then, out of the blue, the Crimson Dynamo appears. Sent by the state to subdue the Titanium Man, he turns the tide, forcing the Titanium Man to flee. But not without a price; the Crimson Dynamo has broken his leg.
The Dynamo wants another chance to subdue the Titanium Man, to spare Russia the humiliation of her own super soldier being taken down by the American Iron Man. Stark has a better idea. On the last page, he dons the Crimson Dynamo armor himself.


IM 317

Iron Man engages the Titanium Man dressed as the Crimson Dynamo. The Black Widow and the injured Crimson Dynamo observe the battle through the armor's visuals, safely ensconced at the Moscow branch of Stark Enterprises.
During the battle, on page 7, the Black Widow receives a call on the communication relay from the Scarlet Witch. She informs the Black Widow that the other members of Force Works have heard of the situation and inquires if any assistance is required. None is. Annoyed at being left out of the loop, the Scarlet Witch signs off while US Agent and Spider-Woman look on.
Iron Man defeats the Titanium Man, and this issue ends in Moscow with Tony and Natasha enjoying each other's company in Tony's hotel room.


FW 11

The civil war torn country of Slorenia. On page 7, courtesy of flashbacks, we see how all the members of Force Works arrived in the country.
On panels 2 and 3, War Machine is relating to the Scarlet Witch the events he witnessed in WARM 14. But at this time, Iron Man is still in Russia.
On panel 4, "In Stark's absence, Force Works voted to return to Slorenia and investigate further.."
On panel 5,currently in Slorenia, Spider-Woman and Tony Stark discuss Tony's trip to Russia. "Like it or not, Tony, we're here...if you'd wanted to debate the issue, you shouldn't have gone to Russia. Don't blame us for your double life."

This admonishment by Spider-woman to Iron Man I feel is key to the chronology of the Force Works characters at this time.



Scarlet Witch

FW 11
FW 12
IM 317 < move from here

IM 317 <move to here
FW 11
FW12

US Agent

FW 11
FW 12
IM 317 <move from here

IM 317 <move to here
FW 11
FW 12

Spider-Woman II

FW 11
FW 12
IM 317 <move from here

IM 317 <move to here
FW 11
FW 12


Iron Man

IM 315
F/A 2-FB-BTS ?
FW 11 <move from here
FW 12 <move from here
IM 316
IM 317

IM 315
F/A 2-FB-BTS ?
IM 316
IM 317
FW 11 <move to here
FW 12 <move to here

Thanks!

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Re: IM 315-317

Post by Paul Bourcier » Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:29 pm

You may have opened a little can of worms here, lettsmonster, and that's good thing.

First, you mention flashbacks in FW 11, so we'll need to include FW 11-FB in certain character chronologies.

Second, while poking around my notes for this period, I noticed that Iron Man's appearance in CA 438 has to occur during IM 314, not between IM 314 and 315 as noted in the MCP and the Iron Man Index. The end of IM 314 occurs the day after the beginning of IM 314 and leads right into IM 315. The CA 438 appearance would need to occur later in the day of the first part of IM 314 or earlier in the day of IM 315.

What I think we need to do is plot all the scenes (page/panel ranges) of the following comics onto a day-by-day calendar to keep the sequencing and the passage of time straight, as these comics all appear to occur in a tight continuity of about a week or so, despite the indications that WARM 13 begins "the day before New Year" and CA 442 occurs on a "summery" "June 17." And I'm finding it a challenge to avoid having Black Widow in two places (Iron Man and Avengers comics) at the same time.

WARM 12-14
IM 314-318
FW 11-12
CA 438-442
A 384-388

I'm a bit busy right now, so if someone would like to tackle this to see how the chronology might all make sense, it would be great.
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Re: IM 315-317

Post by lettsmonster » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:30 pm

Paul, I totally share your concern over the Black Widow's chronology at this time period. Let me give you an example of a little trouble I had following the Black Widow's movements.

As I stated before, I am currently reading Iron Man's appearances in 1995. One thing that happens, though, is I get distracted by guest appearances. When another major character enters the storyline, I need to know what that character has been doing since the last time I saw him or her. This way, I feel I can enjoy the current storyline better with more recent backstory of the guest appearance character.

Anyways, here is how I tried to follow the Black Widow starting in Iron Man. In IM 315-317, Iron Man and the Black Widow travel to Russia together as Tony Stark opens the first Stark Enterprises plant in the country. The Black Widow accompanies Tony to act ostensibly as guide and interpreter. Near the end of IM 317, on page 20, Tony and Natasha are still together in Russia, relaxing before moving on with their separate.

At this point, still following Iron Man's chronology, I started reading FW 13, the next appearance of Iron Man. (Although, as I stated above, FW 11 and 12 might need to be moved after IM 317, it is irrelevant for this argument at the moment). On pages 14 and 15, Iron Man and Black Widow meet again. Wow, I thought, that was quick.

Here was my first distraction. What had the Black Widow been doing, if anything, between IM 317 and FW 13? I then went to the Black Widow's chronology page. To my slight surprise, the Black Widow had nine issues of story between IM 317 and FW 13. But, no worries, there was a significant gap in time between those two issues, enough wiggle room for Black Widow to do other things. So then I started reading her chronology to catch up to when she encounters Iron Man again in FW 13.

The problem came with my second distraction: Nick Fury. When I reached CA 440 in the Black Widow's chronology, Nick Fury meets with Captain America on pages 6-8 to help plan the assault on A.I.M. On page 6, Fury's thought balloon mentions events in FOS 1 and 2. Time to look at Nick Fury's chronology. UH OH! FOS 1 and 2 feature Iron Man. I'm stuck. At this point in time in CA 440, Nick Fury has already teamed up with an Iron Man in FOS that has already teamed up with the Black Widow in FW 13 and 14. The Black Widow in CA 440 on page 14 and later has not yet teamed up with Iron Man in FW 13 and 14.

As you said, Paul, the challenge of the Black Widow in two places at the same time.

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Re: IM 315-317

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:23 pm

Uh-huh. So, ignoring the current MCP chronologies and paying attention only to in-story references to sequences of events and the passage of time, can we deconstruct all this and reassemble it in a way that makes sense?
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Re: IM 315-317

Post by lettsmonster » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:57 pm

After reading all the issues involving the Black Widow and the Avengers, Iron Man, and Nick Fury from this time period, I can only come up with one solution.

I believe the appearances of the five Avengers in FW 13 and 14 (Black Widow, Hercules, Giant-Man, Quicksilver and Crystal) all need to be moved further back in their respective chronologies. This, I feel, would correct the problem I stated above of the Black Widow/Iron Man/Nick Fury conundrum. Within these two issues there are no topical references to other events in other issues that would prevent this move. FW 13 and 14 were probably placed mainly by cover date (July and August 1995) than anything else.

My suggestion for the Black Widow, for example, would be...


IM 315
IM 316
IM 317
FW 13 <move to here
FW 14 <move to here
SM:PT 3
A 384
A 385
A 386
CA 440
A 387
CA 441
A 388
FFU 11
FW 13 <move from here
FW 14 <move from here
TS 23
TS 24

Let me know what you think. Thanks!

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Re: IM 315-317

Post by Paul Bourcier » Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:52 pm

Thanks for noodling this, lettsmonster.

Let's test this order by adding a few more things...

A 385 takes place the day after A 384 and "two days" after CA 438 (1-21).
CA 438 (1-21) occurs one day and CA 438 (22) occurs the next morning.
CA 439 occurs the same day as CA 438 (22).

So...
Day 1 -- CA 438 (1-21)
Day 2 -- CA 438 (22), CA 439, A 384
Day 3 -- A 385

Iron Man and Hank Pym appear in Avengers Mansion in CA 438 (1-21). Given your proposed chronology for the Widow, Stark would need to appear in CA 438 (1-21) after FW 14.

Also, IM 318 follows right from IM 317. Stark appears in his pre-IM 319 armor in CA 438 (1-21) and in FW 15. So, for Stark we're now seeing:

IM 315
IM 316
IM 317
IM 318
FW 13
FW 14
FW 15
CA 438
IM 319

(Or FW 15 could go after CA 438, I suppose.)

Does this all make sense so far?
Paul B.

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Re: IM 315-317

Post by lettsmonster » Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:58 pm

Paul, where would you place FW 11 and FW 12 in this proposed Iron Man chronology?

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Re: IM 315-317

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:34 pm

lettsmonster wrote:
Paul, where would you place FW 11 and FW 12 in this proposed Iron Man chronology?
Between IM 318 and FW 13, yes?

At the end of that WARM 14, War Machine calls Scarlet Witch at "dawn in Berlin." The end of that call is seen the the FB on 8:2-8:3 of FW 11 with an explanation that this contact was made while Stark was in Russia, so before IM 318. Force Works decides to go to Slorenia on FW 11 (8:4)-FB while Stark is presumably returning to California to deal with Slag in IM 318, on the heels of IM 317. Scarlet Witch and Force Works also appear in IM 317. So does Wanda appear in WARM 14 after IM 317? IM 318 takes a second day to happen, so did Force Works postpone their trip to Slorenia until after Iron Man became available after IM 318 finished?
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Re: IM 315-317

Post by lettsmonster » Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:48 am

One concern I have is that at the end of IM 318, on the last two pages, Iron Man is seen heading for and entering his Arctic bunker. IM 319 opens with Tony Stark still there working on his new armor.

I think it is possible that Stark had both the trip to Russia and Slorenia planned without Force Works knowledge. He travels to Russia to attend the ribbon cutting ceremony of a new Stark Enterprises plant - a planned event. When he is first seen in Slorenia in FW 11, he is announcing the formalization of a trade agreement between the Slorenia government and Stark Enterprises - seemingly another planned event. Tony Stark even mentions in his speech "after months of negotiation". The other Force Works members were pursuing their own agenda in regards to Slorenia not knowing what Tony's plans were. Could they have met in Slorenia, Stark travelling west from Russia and Force Works travelling east from California? Is that too big of a coincidence?

The creation of Slag is a "meanwhile" backstory that runs throughout IM 315-317. The splash page of IM 318 shows Iron Man digging through the rubble at Cal Poly looking for the body of his old professor and instead finding Slag, the creature his old professor had turned into. On page 2 of IM 318, Iron Man mentions being out of the country when this event occurred. Could we possibly make this refer to being out of the country in Russia and Slorenia?

I think the placement in time of this Slag backstory is key. What do you think?

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