I was reviewing Marvel Team-Up # 1-3 (1972/03-07) and had a question about the Human Torch. He is currently listed as appearing as follows, between FF 104-126:
FF 104 (20:4)
X:HY 22 (11:4 - 20:3)
* M/TU 1
FF 105-116
* M/TU 2
SUB-M 44-46
FF 117-125
SGTF 100
* M/TU 3
H2 152
H2 153
FF 126
Spider-Man is listed as appearing in M/TU 1-2 between ASM 99-100:
ASM 99
* M/TU 1
FF 111
* M/TU 2
[ASM 603-FB]
SENTRY/SM (20 - 21:2)-FB
ASM 100
Marvel Team-Up # 1 (1972/03) was released the same month as FF 120 and ASM 106.
My question relates to Johnny-- in M/TU 1, he is moping over Crystal. However, she had been with him pretty much continuously until the beginning of FF 105, when she had to return to her people; she would return briefly in FF # 117-118, leave again, and the next time Johnny saw her in FF # 130-131, she had switched to Quicksilver. (The next time Johnny appears in M/TU is # 10, where he has apparently broken up with Crystal for good; that story is listed as occurring between FF # 133-134).
I'm wondering if there is some reason Johnny's appearance in M/TU 1 is not listed as occurring some time after the beginning of FF 105; for example, together with M/TU 2, between FF 116-117? That would also be somewhat consistent with the fact that Spidey only appears in M/TU 1-2 between two issues of his own book, ASM 99-100.
I know these team-up books are always a complex matter, though. Spidey's listed appearance in FF 111, for example, between ASM 99-100, is not consistent with Johnny appearing in M/TU 1 between FF 116-117, so there could well be something complicated here that I'm missing.
Just wondering if this has been hashed out somewhere in detail?
Human Torch in early Marvel Team-Up
Moderators: Col_Fury, michel, Arthur, Somebody, StrayLamb
Re: Human Torch in early Marvel Team-Up
I dug up my old copies of "The Official Index to Marvel Team-Up" by George Olshevsky, published in 1986.
He lists Marvel Team-Up appearances as follows:
M/TU 1 appearances:
Spider-Man between Asm 94-95 (current project lists the appearances in M/TU 1-2 as occurring between ASM 99-100); Human Torch between FF 104-105 (consistent with current project).
The explanation given in the Index is that the story occurs during the Christmas Eve of Peter Parker's sophomore year of college, and that the junior year Christmas Eve would have been too close in time to FF # 133, which occurred after Thundra joined the Frightful Four. The story is rejected as occurring after ASM 98 because Gwen had returned to him at that point, yet he seems to miss her very much here.
For the Human Torch, the problems with Crystal are explained as involving "the progressive deterioration in Crystal's health" leading to her collapse in FF 105.
Comments: As for Spidey, I am wondering if it might be possible to place M/TU 1, instead, between ASM 102-103, as there is a fairly clean break between the Morbius and Savage Land stories. Peter had problems with Gwen during the Morbius storyline (she thinks he's left her) and had been away from her for some time. ASM # 106 was published the same month as M/TU 1 (1972/03), so it would also be closer to the Spider-Man book.
As for the Human Torch, there was no indication given of Crystal's health problems before FF 105, so the explanation doesn't seem right. I am wondering if it might be possible to place his appearance as occurring between FF # 119-120, shortly after Crystal left Johnny again (in FF 118) and before the Gabriel/Galactus storyline. FF # 120 was cover-dated 1972/03.
M/TU 2 (1972/05, same month as ASM 108 and FF 122):
The index places Spider-Man between FF 111 and ASM 100; and Human Torch between FF 116 and SUB-M 44, both of which are in agreement with the current project; the only comment made in the Index is that the story takes place "a few weeks" after the previous M/TU story, and sometime during late January or early February of Peter Parker's sophomore year in college.
Comment: I wonder if this story could also be placed between ASM 102-103, since it seems to occur not long after M/TU 1; and, for the Torch, also between FF # 119-120.
M/TU 3 (1972/07, same month as ASM 110 and FF 124):
The index places Spider-Man's appearance in the first three pages as immediately after ASM 102; and the rest of the story (pg. 4-21), as well as all of M/TU 4, as occurring between panels 4-5 of pg. 9 of ASM 105, following the party for Harry Osborn but before Jameson goes to Spencer Smythe's lab. The current project is very similar, except it lists Spidey's appearance in M/TU 3, pg. 4-21, as occurring between pg. 9-10 of ASM 105.
The index places the Human Torch's appearance (and the rest of the FF) between FF 123-124, right after the Galactus story. The current project instead places the Torch between FF 125-126, with a host of other appearances.
Comment: I have no real quibble with Olshevsky's placements for Spidey; the chronology project is very nearly in agreement. I have no real opinion on the Torch; between FF 125-126 seems fine to me.
So I am wondering if the following revised chronology makes any sense:
SPIDER-MAN (current project):
ASM 99
* M/TU 1
FF 111
* M/TU 2
[ASM 603-FB]
SENTRY/SM (20 - 21:2)-FB
ASM 100
ASM 101
ASM 102
* M/TU 3 (1 - 3)
ASM 103
ASM 104
ASM 105 (1 - 9)
* M/TU 3 (4 - 21)
MARVELS 4 (8)
H2 152
H2 153
* M/TU 4
M/FEA 4
ASM 105 (10 - 22)
changed to:
SPIDER-MAN (proposed)
ASM 99
FF 111
[ASM 603-FB]
SENTRY/SM (20 - 21:2)-FB
ASM 100
ASM 101
ASM 102
* M/TU 1 (moved)
* M/TU 2 (moved)
M/TU 3 (1 - 3)
ASM 103
ASM 104
* ASM 105 (pg. 1 - pg. 9, pn. 4) (very slightly revised)
M/TU 3 (4 - 21)
MARVELS 4 (8)
H2 152
H2 153
M/TU 4
M/FEA 4
* ASM 105 (pg. 9, pn. 5 to pg. 22) (very slightly revised)
and for the Human Torch:
HUMAN TORCH (current project):
FF 104 (20:4)
X:HY 22 (11:4 - 20:3)
* M/TU 1
FF 105
FF 106
FF 107
FF 108
FF 109
FF 110
FF 111
FF 112
FF 113
FF 114
FF 115
FF 116
* M/TU 2
SUB-M 44
SUB-M 45
SUB-M 46
FF 117
FF 118
FF 119
FF 120
FF 121
FF 122
FF 123
FF 124
FF 125
SGTF 100
* M/TU 3
H2 152
H2 153
FF 126
to:
HUMAN TORCH (proposed):
FF 104 (20:4)
X:HY 22 (11:4 - 20:3)
FF 105
FF 106
FF 107
FF 108
FF 109
FF 110
FF 111
FF 112
FF 113
FF 114
FF 115
FF 116
SUB-M 44
SUB-M 45
SUB-M 46
FF 117
FF 118
FF 119
* M/TU 1 (moved)
* M/TU 2 (moved)
FF 120
FF 121
FF 122
FF 123
FF 124
FF 125
SGTF 100
M/TU 3
H2 152
H2 153
FF 126
The rationale is as follows: the movement of M/TU 1-2 to later in Spidey's chronology fits in with his recent troubles with Gwen (where he leaves her for a bit, during the Morbius storyline); the movement for the Torch fits with his moping over Crystal, who just left him again.
I understand that this change may not be possible for some reason. If this has been hashed out in some archive or discussion, I would appreciate if if someone could point me to the right place.
He lists Marvel Team-Up appearances as follows:
M/TU 1 appearances:
Spider-Man between Asm 94-95 (current project lists the appearances in M/TU 1-2 as occurring between ASM 99-100); Human Torch between FF 104-105 (consistent with current project).
The explanation given in the Index is that the story occurs during the Christmas Eve of Peter Parker's sophomore year of college, and that the junior year Christmas Eve would have been too close in time to FF # 133, which occurred after Thundra joined the Frightful Four. The story is rejected as occurring after ASM 98 because Gwen had returned to him at that point, yet he seems to miss her very much here.
For the Human Torch, the problems with Crystal are explained as involving "the progressive deterioration in Crystal's health" leading to her collapse in FF 105.
Comments: As for Spidey, I am wondering if it might be possible to place M/TU 1, instead, between ASM 102-103, as there is a fairly clean break between the Morbius and Savage Land stories. Peter had problems with Gwen during the Morbius storyline (she thinks he's left her) and had been away from her for some time. ASM # 106 was published the same month as M/TU 1 (1972/03), so it would also be closer to the Spider-Man book.
As for the Human Torch, there was no indication given of Crystal's health problems before FF 105, so the explanation doesn't seem right. I am wondering if it might be possible to place his appearance as occurring between FF # 119-120, shortly after Crystal left Johnny again (in FF 118) and before the Gabriel/Galactus storyline. FF # 120 was cover-dated 1972/03.
M/TU 2 (1972/05, same month as ASM 108 and FF 122):
The index places Spider-Man between FF 111 and ASM 100; and Human Torch between FF 116 and SUB-M 44, both of which are in agreement with the current project; the only comment made in the Index is that the story takes place "a few weeks" after the previous M/TU story, and sometime during late January or early February of Peter Parker's sophomore year in college.
Comment: I wonder if this story could also be placed between ASM 102-103, since it seems to occur not long after M/TU 1; and, for the Torch, also between FF # 119-120.
M/TU 3 (1972/07, same month as ASM 110 and FF 124):
The index places Spider-Man's appearance in the first three pages as immediately after ASM 102; and the rest of the story (pg. 4-21), as well as all of M/TU 4, as occurring between panels 4-5 of pg. 9 of ASM 105, following the party for Harry Osborn but before Jameson goes to Spencer Smythe's lab. The current project is very similar, except it lists Spidey's appearance in M/TU 3, pg. 4-21, as occurring between pg. 9-10 of ASM 105.
The index places the Human Torch's appearance (and the rest of the FF) between FF 123-124, right after the Galactus story. The current project instead places the Torch between FF 125-126, with a host of other appearances.
Comment: I have no real quibble with Olshevsky's placements for Spidey; the chronology project is very nearly in agreement. I have no real opinion on the Torch; between FF 125-126 seems fine to me.
So I am wondering if the following revised chronology makes any sense:
SPIDER-MAN (current project):
ASM 99
* M/TU 1
FF 111
* M/TU 2
[ASM 603-FB]
SENTRY/SM (20 - 21:2)-FB
ASM 100
ASM 101
ASM 102
* M/TU 3 (1 - 3)
ASM 103
ASM 104
ASM 105 (1 - 9)
* M/TU 3 (4 - 21)
MARVELS 4 (8)
H2 152
H2 153
* M/TU 4
M/FEA 4
ASM 105 (10 - 22)
changed to:
SPIDER-MAN (proposed)
ASM 99
FF 111
[ASM 603-FB]
SENTRY/SM (20 - 21:2)-FB
ASM 100
ASM 101
ASM 102
* M/TU 1 (moved)
* M/TU 2 (moved)
M/TU 3 (1 - 3)
ASM 103
ASM 104
* ASM 105 (pg. 1 - pg. 9, pn. 4) (very slightly revised)
M/TU 3 (4 - 21)
MARVELS 4 (8)
H2 152
H2 153
M/TU 4
M/FEA 4
* ASM 105 (pg. 9, pn. 5 to pg. 22) (very slightly revised)
and for the Human Torch:
HUMAN TORCH (current project):
FF 104 (20:4)
X:HY 22 (11:4 - 20:3)
* M/TU 1
FF 105
FF 106
FF 107
FF 108
FF 109
FF 110
FF 111
FF 112
FF 113
FF 114
FF 115
FF 116
* M/TU 2
SUB-M 44
SUB-M 45
SUB-M 46
FF 117
FF 118
FF 119
FF 120
FF 121
FF 122
FF 123
FF 124
FF 125
SGTF 100
* M/TU 3
H2 152
H2 153
FF 126
to:
HUMAN TORCH (proposed):
FF 104 (20:4)
X:HY 22 (11:4 - 20:3)
FF 105
FF 106
FF 107
FF 108
FF 109
FF 110
FF 111
FF 112
FF 113
FF 114
FF 115
FF 116
SUB-M 44
SUB-M 45
SUB-M 46
FF 117
FF 118
FF 119
* M/TU 1 (moved)
* M/TU 2 (moved)
FF 120
FF 121
FF 122
FF 123
FF 124
FF 125
SGTF 100
M/TU 3
H2 152
H2 153
FF 126
The rationale is as follows: the movement of M/TU 1-2 to later in Spidey's chronology fits in with his recent troubles with Gwen (where he leaves her for a bit, during the Morbius storyline); the movement for the Torch fits with his moping over Crystal, who just left him again.
I understand that this change may not be possible for some reason. If this has been hashed out in some archive or discussion, I would appreciate if if someone could point me to the right place.