Circular chronology

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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Circular chronology

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:51 pm

I’m trying to untie a circular chronology knot and I’m looking for help.

First, Kitty Pryde and the young X-Men leave the Jean Grey School and join the New Xavier School (X-Men: Battle of the Atom #2 and All-New X-Men #18).

Then, Kitty and the young Jean Grey are shown as part of the New Xavier School when they deal with Terrigen cocoons during Infinity (Uncanny X-Men v3 #15).

Then, in the aftermath of Infinity, Hank Pym salvages Inhuman technology from fallen Attilan (Avengers A.I. #7).

Then, Pym and his Avengers deal with the Diamond (Avengers A.I. #8-10).

Then, because an editor's note says that A.I. #10 happens before Uncanny Avengers #14,
the Uncanny Avengers fight the Apocalypse Twins. During this battle, which spans Uncanny Avengers #7-18, Kitty is seen as a faculty person and young Angel as a student at the Jean Grey School (Uncanny Avengers #11-12).

Then, Kitty Pryde and the young X-Men leave the Jean Grey School....

Ugh.
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Re: Circular chronology

Post by Jason Doty » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:48 pm

Paul I think the terrigen mists are traversing the globe at an uneven rate and new Inhumans aren't always effected until they reach a certain level as shown in Iron Man comics.

There is a lapse of time shown between the end of Battle of the Atom and the last pages of it.

Infinity happens first (Wolverine still has his healing factor)
Then, in the aftermath of Infinity, Hank Pym salvages Inhuman technology from fallen Attilan (Avengers A.I. #7).
Then, Pym and his Avengers deal with the Diamond (Avengers A.I. #8-10).
Then, because an editor's note says that A.I. #10 happens before Uncanny Avengers #14,
the Uncanny Avengers fight the Apocalypse Twins. During this battle, which spans Uncanny Avengers #7-18 (Wolverine still has his healing factor), Kitty is seen as a faculty person and young Angel as a student at the Jean Grey School (Uncanny Avengers #11-12).
Wolverine comics (where Wolverine loses healing factor, Kitty still at the Jean Grey School)
Battle of the Atom (main story, Wolverine healing factor gone)
First, Kitty Pryde and the young X-Men leave the Jean Grey School and join the New Xavier School (X-Men: Battle of the Atom #2 (Last pages) and All-New X-Men #18).
Then, Kitty and the young Jean Grey are shown as part of the New Xavier School when they deal with Terrigen cocoons (Uncanny X-Men v3 #15). (which takes place in Paris, after Infinity when the terrigen mists reach there.)

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Re: Circular chronology

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:18 pm

Thanks for addressing this conundrum, Jason.

One problem is the dialog in UX3 15:
Kitty: "We don't know what this is or how it is attached to him."
Jean: "You've never seen anything like this before?"
Magik: "It looks like a cocoon."
Irma: "I'm picking up thoughts all over the place. It's happening all over the world."
Phoebe or Celeste: "It's all over the news."
Irma: "A bomb went off."
Phoebe or Celeste: "They're calling it a Terrigen bomb."
Magik: "Terrigen like the Inhumans Terrigen?"
Phoebe or Celeste: "Its after-effects have been slowly crawling all over the world."
Jean: "Waking up dormant mutants."

So yes, we have confirmation that the mist has been SLOWLY crawling over the Earth, but are we supposed to believe these women had no clue what was going on after all that time since the fall of Attilan? Are they THAT out of touch at the New Xavier School?
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Re: Circular chronology

Post by Jason Doty » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:51 pm

Yeah, I guess they are out of touch. The Cuckcoos find out by reading peoples minds and many people seem to be in the "know." or maybe they had more pressing matters-BTS, who knows?

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Re: Circular chronology

Post by Michael » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:16 am

I would hold off on placing Uncanny Avengers. It's obvious that they're going to hit a reset button, like with Fraction's Defenders and Spurrier's X-Men Legacy.

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Re: Circular chronology

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:23 am

Jason Doty wrote:
Yeah, I guess they are out of touch. The Cuckcoos find out by reading peoples minds and many people seem to be in the "know." or maybe they had more pressing matters-BTS, who knows?
There's problem enough with having the folks from the New Xavier School being out of touch, but Kitty Pryde and Jean Grey are with them, and Kitty and Jean would have been at the Jean Grey School during Infinity. They were close to NYC when the Terrigen Bomb hit. How on earth could they NOT know about the Terrigen cocoons?

Additional note: Kitty is at the Jean Grey School at the start of Infinity in Infinity #1, so Battle of the Atom must occur after Infinity, regardless of where Uncanny Avengers occurs in relation to Infinity.


Michael wrote:
I would hold off on placing Uncanny Avengers. It's obvious that they're going to hit a reset button, like with Fraction's Defenders and Spurrier's X-Men Legacy.
Holy crap, I hope they don't pull that BS here. Yes, things will have to be reversed; we all know that the Avengers aren't going to stay dead, but they better not reset time so the whole story never really happened.

Speaking of Uncanny Avengers, I originally placed this arc after Infinity because the Peak was destroyed in UA 7 and the Peak was just fine at the start of Infinity. Then, wouldn't you know, they destroyed the Peak in GOTG3 9, an Infinity tie-in. Okay, I said, this opens up the possibility of the UA arc going before Infinity. Then I noticed a piece of dialog in A5 22 (also during Infinity, before GOTG3 9):

Super-Skrull: "This Peak may be formidable, but surely a single station cannot have that kind of firepower."
Spider-Woman: "Well, the first one didn't...but Earth seems to have a constant invasion problem. So it got rebuilt...better." (And don't call me Shirley.)

Here I thought the first Peak Spider-Woman was referring to was the one that was destroyed in UA 7. But maybe this was another, earlier incarnation of the Peak?


I know Wolverine's chronology informs all of this, too. I don't have all of his recent appearances in my collection, but if someone could rough out a chronology that makes sense for him, that might help.
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Re: Circular chronology

Post by Jason Doty » Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:30 pm

Kitty is at the Jean Grey School at the start of Infinity in Infinity #1, so Battle of the Atom must occur after Infinity, regardless of where Uncanny Avengers occurs in relation to Infinity.
Yes.

Infinity->Avengers A.I.->Uncanny Avengers Arc->Wolverine v5 #1-7 (loses healing factor)->Battle of the Atom->Wolverine v5 #8-13 (Kitty still at Jean Grey School)->Last pages of Battle of the Atom->Uncanny X-Men/All-New X-Men issues with Kitty and past X-Men at New Xavier School.

The Uncanny Avengers arc happens after Infinity because of Avengers A.I., but before Wolverine loses his healing factor.

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Re: Circular chronology

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:05 pm

Jason wrote:
Infinity->Avengers A.I.->Uncanny Avengers Arc->Wolverine v5 #1-7 (loses healing factor)->Battle of the Atom->Wolverine v5 #8-13 (Kitty still at Jean Grey School)->Last pages of Battle of the Atom->Uncanny X-Men/All-New X-Men issues with Kitty and past X-Men at New Xavier School.


Thanks, Jason. So how about Savage Wolverine? I believe issues #12-13 occur "just before" Battle of the Atom. Kitty is with the Jean Grey School in those issues, and Logan still has his healing factor. So I'd guess at least those issues go between the UA arc and W5 1. Not sure about other issues.

The sequence above begs two questions, then:
1) What's up with Spider-Woman's reference to the Peak being rebuilt before Infinity?
2) How the heck was the worldwide Terrigenesis news to Kitty, Jean, and the gals in UX3 15? Heck, students from the Jean Grey School actually dealt with a Terrigen cocoon while assisting in relief efforts in Manhattan in Inhumanity: The Awakening #1! Kitty had to have known about this.
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Re: Circular chronology

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:08 pm

We can probably add another story arc featuring Logan to this effort. He appears in Avengers Assemble #21-25 shortly after Infinity and before he loses his healing factor. This arc probably doesn't happen as soon after Infinity as the Avengers AI arc does, but it shouldn't be too long after. I'd say AAS 21-25 goes between the AI story arc and the UA story arc.

Follow-up for Jason:

You put the bulk of Battle of the Atom between W5 7 and 8. Flashbacks in W5 8 occur the same day as W5 7 and "two days" before W5 8. So the bulk of Battle of the Atom would fit in that full day in between W5 7 and 8.

A fair amount of time must separate pages 28 and 29 of X:BOTA 2, and this is where you put W5 8-13, an arc that probably takes several days to occur. After W5 13, Logan spends "three weeks" in the Jean Grey School infirmary (so he can make no other appearances) and doesn't see anyone else because Beast keeps everyone out. This is courtesy of Logan's dialog in W6 1-FB. In that FB, Storm asks Logan, "Have you and Kitty spoken?" Logan answers, "She never came to see me." This suggests to me that Kitty hasn't left the school yet. Then, after W6 1-FB, Logan appears in X:BOTA 2 (29-31), in which Kitty and the young X-Men leave the Jean Grey School.

So it appears that we have about a month-long gap during X:BOTA 2. It's during that time that Kitty visits Cyclops in UX3 18-FB. Indeed, UX3 18-FB occurs "two weeks" before Kitty and the young X-Men move out.

It doesn't deal with the heart of the circular chronology question, but does this all check out?
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Re: Circular chronology

Post by Midnighter » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:04 pm

Paul Bourcier wrote:1) What's up with Spider-Woman's reference to the Peak being rebuilt before Infinity?
The first time that the Peak was destroyed was during Secret Invasion.

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Re: Circular chronology

Post by Jason Doty » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:56 pm

Look Paul, were going to have to go over a lot of books to rough all this out.

To start with, I don't think the peak was destroyed in Infinity. It was taken over and then liberated by Avengers, Guardians, and Abigail Brand if I remember right.

As far as my rough outline, It's a jumping off point, It's a wide swath of some recent events. It could definitely be fine tuned. I just don't see circular chronology you speak of.

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Re: Circular chronology

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:35 pm

Midnighter wrote:
The first time that the Peak was destroyed was during Secret Invasion.
Great. Just what we need! Thanks. :thumbsup:

The circle has disappeared, but we do have one no-prize remaining -- an explanation for UX3 15.


Jason wrote:
To start with, I don't think the peak was destroyed in Infinity. It was taken over and then liberated by Avengers, Guardians, and Abigail Brand if I remember right.
Um...the last two pages of GOTG3 9 beg to differ. If that's not destroyed, then it's a pretty big boo-boo.


Jason wrote:
Look Paul, were going to have to go over a lot of books to rough all this out.
Yay! That's just what we do! Now granted, I could now change the title of this thread.
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