AVF 8-FB

[Col_Fury]

Immortus appears in more than one flashback in AVF 8!

Also, AVF 8 reveals that T 281-FB are lies, so that needs to be deleted from Immortus’ and the Space Phantom’s chronologies.

We’re also missing some Space Phantom appearances, and some flashbacks from AVF 8 in various characters’ chronologies.

ATTILA THE HUN IMPOSTER [SPACE PHANTOM]
A 10

BUNYAN, PAUL IMPOSTER [SPACE PHANTOM]
A 10

GOLIATH IMPOSTER [SPACE PHANTOM]
A 10

HERCULES IMPOSTER [SPACE PHANTOM]
See "the" Space Phantom

HORTON, PROF. PHINEAS T. IMPOSTER [SPACE PHANTOM]
*AVF 8-FB
{WCA2 43}
…

HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND
…
FF@ 4
*AVF 8 (15:6)-FB
*AVF 8 (16:3)-FB
*AWC 50-FB
*AVF 8 (16:4)-FB
AWC 50
…

IMMORTUS
From Kang the Conqueror
AVF 12
*AVF 8 (4:3 - 4:5)-FB
**T 281-FB (delete)
*AVF 8 (5:3 - 5:4)-FB
*T 282 (14:4)-FB
A 2-BTS
**T 282-FB (delete)
A 8 (1 - 8)-BTS
…
A 10 (19:6 - 20:9)-BTS
*T 282 (15:1)-FB
A 16
*AVF 8 (8:6)-FB
A 56-BTS
A@ 2-BTS | cf WI? 29
*AVF 8 (10:2-11:5)-FB
*AVF 8 (13:1)-FB
*AVF 10-FB
A 131
…
A 254-BTS
*AVF 8 (14:4 - 14:5)-FB
WCA2 43-FB-BTS
*AVF 8 (14:6)-FB
WCA2 43-BTS
…
A@ 21/4
*AVF 8 (19:6 - 21)-FB
A 382/2-BTS
…
AVF 3
*AVF 8 (15:6)-FB
AVF 4-BTS
…

MAD THINKER
…
FF@ 4 (18:3 - 19)
AVF 8-FB
*AWC 50-FB
SUB-M 14 (19:3 - 19:5)-FB
…

MASTER PANDEMONIUM/MARTIN PRESTON
WCA2 9-FB
WCA2 15-FB
*AVF 8-FB
{WCA2 4}
…

MEPHISTO
…
WCA2 15-FB
*AVF 8-FB
H2 312-FB
…

MERLIN IMPOSTER [SPACE PHANTOM]
A 10

PHARAOH RAMA-TUT
…
GSA 3
*T 282 (14:3)-FB
See KANG

SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF
…
H2 323
V&SW2 12
*AVF 8-FB
M/SH3 10
…

SPACE PHANTOM
*AVF 8-FB
**T 281-FB (delete)
*T 282-FB
*{A 2 (1 - 18)}
A 267-BTS
*A 2 (22)
A 268
*A 10
T 282-FB
JIM 108-BTS
*A 107 (18:4 - 18:5)-FB
CA 113-BTS
*A 107 (18:6)-FB
*A 107 (18:8)-FB
A 106-FB-BTS
*A 107 (4-13)-FB
*A 107 (19 - 20:2)-FB
A 105-BTS
A 106
…

THOR/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON" [ASGARDIAN]
…
T 281
**AVF 8-FB (delete)
T 282
…

TORO/TOM RAYMOND
…
M/SH 16/2-BTS
*AWC 50 (5:2 - 5:3)-FB
AVF 8-FB
*AWC 50 (5:4 - 5:6)-FB
SUB-M 14 (19:3 - 19:5)-FB
…

VISION II/"VICTOR SHADE"
…
H2 323
V&SW2 12
*AVF 8 (14:4)-FB
M/SH3 10
…

[DonCampbell]

From your posting, you are operating on the belief that the Immortus who "first" appeared in Avengers Forever #12 (when Kang was split into two people, himself and young Immortus) will go on to become the Immortus who served the Time-Keepers ever since before his first appearance back in Avengers #10. However, my reading of the event of AVF 12 is somewhat different since it seemed that this "new" Immortus (who clearly had all the memories of the "old" Immortus) was essentially the same consciousness in a new body and was determined to "not make the same mistakes twice."

Admittedly, this viewpoint does have a problem since it would mean that, as a result of AVF 12, there would now be a HUGE paradox in the many lives of Immortus. Remember, his life began as Nathaniel Richards II, then he became the evil Pharaoh Rama-Tut, then he became Kang the Conqueror, then he became the kinder Pharaoh Rama-Tut, and finally he became Immortus who (later) agreed to serve the Time-Keepers. If the new, young Immortus acted as he said he would, then that would mean that the Immortus who served the Time-Keepers would have to have existed without ever having been created, since neither Kang nor New Immortus were willing to serve them. That situation would have created a paradox, one that could only be resolved if New Immortus (or "a" Kang) were to change their minds and decide to serve the Time-Keepers. However, if New Immortus DID ever decide to serve the Time-Keepers and "become" the First Immortus, then he would be stuck in a cycle in which he would literally relive his life over and over again, and each time he went back to being Old Immortus he would have an extra lifetime's worth of memories added on.

Personally, I haven't seen that happen in any story. Perhaps I have missed something?

Don Campbell

[Col_Fury]

My understanding is, the young/new/whatever Immortus that diverged from Kang in AVF 12 had Kang's memories, not necessarily Immortus' memories. Meaning, he had Kang's memories *OF* Immortus, but not Immortus' memories as Immortus experienced them.

Essentially, Immortus was diverged from Kang like the Vision was diverged from the Human Torch (Jim Hammond). The divergence occured, but both splits stayed in the same timeline. Kang decided to stay Kang, and Immortus decided to become Immortus. Kang rejoiced in the knowledge that his future is now unwritten.

At this freshly-diverged from Kang stage, Immortus would still see things as Kang does; Immortus in AVF 12 vowed not to make the same decisions (mistakes from Kang's point of view) that Immortus had/will made/make (in the past from Kang's point of view, in the future from Immortus' point of view). Then, in the future when Immortus studies time (as he says he plans to in AVF 12), he comes to the conclusions that he did/will in AVF 8-FB, and accepts the Time-Keepers' offer (probably because of information Immortus will learn that Kang does not have, and that Kang does not plan to get).

And of course, Imoortus will be/was killed in AVF 11. Since there's only one Immortus, Immortus' "death" seen in Avengers: Terminatrix Objective #3 (that leads to the Immortus corpse that Kang finds in A 269-FB) was a ruse, as suggested in AVF 9.

[DonCampbell]

My understanding is, the young/new/whatever Immortus that diverged from Kang in AVF 12 had Kang's memories, not necessarily Immortus' memories. Meaning, he had Kang's memories *OF* Immortus, but not Immortus' memories as Immortus experienced them.

Essentially, Immortus was diverged from Kang like the Vision was diverged from the Human Torch (Jim Hammond). The divergence occured, but both splits stayed in the same timeline. Kang decided to stay Kang, and Immortus decided to become Immortus. Kang rejoiced in the knowledge that his future is now unwritten.

At this freshly-diverged from Kang stage, Immortus would still see things as Kang does; Immortus in AVF 12 vowed not to make the same decisions (mistakes from Kang's point of view) that Immortus had/will made/make (in the past from Kang's point of view, in the future from Immortus' point of view). Then, in the future when Immortus studies time (as he says he plans to in AVF 12), he comes to the conclusions that he did/will in AVF 8-FB, and accepts the Time-Keepers' offer (probably because of information Immortus will learn that Kang does not have, and that Kang does not plan to get).

And of course, Imoortus will be/was killed in AVF 11. Since there's only one Immortus, Immortus' "death" seen in Avengers: Terminatrix Objective #3 (that leads to the Immortus corpse that Kang finds in A 269-FB) was a ruse, as suggested in AVF 9.

Your theory is interesting but I completely disagree with it. In my opinion, New Immortus does in fact have all of the memories of Old Immortus. Furthermore, his comment about how he had studied the Forever Crystal "for centuries, since (Kang) created it" seems to me to be proof of this. After all, Kang was only about 60 years old when he went back in time to become the benevolent Rama-Tut and he then spent 17 years in Ancient Egypt before entering suspended animation to reach the 20th Century so he could prevent his past self from seizing the Celestial Madonna. And it was right after that encounter with Kang and Immortus that old Rama-Tut decided to accept his destiny of becoming Immortus only to change his mind at the last minute and become Kang again, a choice which led to his involvement in the Avengers Forever storyline. Also, I really don't buy Libra's theory that Kang's force of will was so strong that it caused his body to split into two selves. I'm certain that there must be something more to it.

Accordingly, my own (fanfic) explanation for how Old Immortus became New Immortus is as follows: By the time the events of AVF 11 were taking place, Old Immortus had realized that he would soon have to pick a side, either the Avengers or the Time-Keepers, and from his long experience with the latter, he knew/suspected that they would react to his defiance by killing him and forcibly transforming Kang into another Immortus and so he planned a way to use this situation to his advantage. Since the Forever Crystal is controlled mentally (since it has no physical controls), Old Immortus secretly programmed it with instructions which it was to carry out if/when what he foresaw came to pass. First, the Crustal was to (secretly) preserve his life essence once his physical body was destroyed. Next, when the Time-Keepers tried to transform Kang into Immortus, the Crystal was to (secretly) interfere in the process and split Kang's physical form into two bodies. And finally, the Crystal was to (secretly) transplant the preserved essence of Old Immortus into one of the Kang bodies, thereby creating New Immortus who then (prudently) pretended to not understand how he had come to exist separately from Kang.

Of course, as I said before, my explanation is only fanfic speculation. However, both of our explanations rely on assumptions which have never been confirmed. You assume that New Immortus eventually changed his mind and became Old Immortus while I assume that New Immortus meant what he said about not making the same mistakes twice and went on to live his own life.

I guess only writer Kurt Busiek knows for sure what happened or, at least, what he intended to happen.

Don Campbell