Kingpin

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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metaldragon
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Kingpin

Post by metaldragon »

I noticed something a bit odd with Kingpin's chronology. He appears in DD 263 & WOSM 48- both of which take place in the middle of the Inferno crossover. But there are a whole bunch of issues between those two appearances, one of which (PPTSS 143) takes place before Inferno. For Daredevil the Inferno issues are: 262-263, 265 and for Spider-Man the Inferno story goes: ASM 311-PPTSS 146-WOSM 47-ASM 312-PPTSS 147-WOSM 48-ASM 313-PPTSS 148. That means DD 263 & WOSM 48 need to go pretty close together. Both DD 263 & WOSM 48 show the Kingpin in Manhattan with demons. DD 263 is clearly after N'astirh opened the portal to Limbo and the demons entered Manhattan and WOSM 48 is after N'astirh has been infected by the Technarch virus (he's red) and demonizes Hobgoblin, with lots of demons still around (so probably before Magik sweeps most of them back to Limbo). Kingpin mentions he wants to kill Daredevil in WOSM 48. DD 261 takes place very shortly before DD 263 so I don't think Kingpin would appear anywhere else between those issues. That means at least PPTSS 143 needs to go before DD 261. Do the Punisher stories take place during Inferno? If not, do they take place before or after? As his profile currently goes...

Kingpin:
...
DD 259
ASM@ 22
WOSM@ 4
DD 261
DD 263 [Inferno]
PPTSS 143 [before Inferno]
PWJ 1
PUN2 14-BTS
PUN2 15
PUN2 16
PUN2 17
PUN2 18
TM:BB (22 - 27)
WOSM 48 [Inferno]
PPTSS 149-BTS [after Inferno]
PPTSS 150
...
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Re: Kingpin

Post by Russ Chappell »

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Re: Kingpin

Post by metaldragon »

I noticed it while breaking down the Inferno crossover. I finally managed to pick up the Daredevil issues and cross checking with the characters chronologies here, came across this little knot. Since the demon invasion part of Inferno only took a few hours and the 2 issues I highlighted take place during those hours, I was wondering if this order was correct. The obvious questionable placement is PPTSS 143 and since the Punisher issues don't have the "Inferno" tag, I'm wondering if they belong between the two Inferno appearances too.
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Re: Kingpin

Post by Col_Fury »

In comparing Kingpin's chronology to Spider-Man's, it does appear that PPTSS 143 is in the wrong place for Kingpin.

Spider-Man has PPTSS 143 placed before the Inferno crossover, and PPTSS 143 is Spider-Man's very next appearance after WOSM@ 4. Kingpin appears in both WOSM@ 4 and PPTSS 143, but that alone doesn't necessarily mean that some DD issues can't occur between WOSM@ 4 and PPTSS 143.

What happens in DD 261? You say it happens shortly before DD 262, how so?

At a glance, it looks like WOSM 48 (an Inferno issue, same as DD 263) is in the wrong spot for Kingpin. Does Kingpin appear alongside Hobgoblin and Spider-Man in WOSM 48? Or does Kingpin appear in an epilogue after the main story?
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Re: Kingpin

Post by Col_Fury »

Col_Fury wrote:Or does Kingpin appear in an epilogue after the main story?
All right, I missed this in the middle of your first post:
metaldragon wrote:WOSM 48 show the Kingpin in Manhattan with demons.
Kingpin appears in WOSM 48 during Inferno, not in an epilogue, so WOSM 48 is definitely in the wrong spot for Kingpin.

According to the recent Uncanny X-Men Index, DD 263 happens before WOSM 48. So there's that.

The Uncanny X-Men Index doesn't mention DD 261, so how does DD 261 lead into DD 262?
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Re: Kingpin

Post by metaldragon »

In DD 261, Manhattan is experiencing the heatwave leading up to Inferno and people are becoming more aggressive. Kingpin chokes and slaps around Typhoid Mary for killing Daredevil (in DD 260) against his orders. Human Torch, Karen Page and the kid sidekicks are looking for Daredevil who has gone missing (in DD 260). After causing a bar fight and accidentally setting the bar on fire in Hell's Kitchen, Human Torch leaves (for Q 3 & FF 322). Mary goes back to the bridge where Daredevil's fallen body lies below.

In DD 262 inanimate objects have started coming to life in Manhattan. Black Widow has joined the search for Daredevil with Karen & 2 of the kids, replacing Human Torch. She saves the kids from a demonized freight elevator. Mary walks the bridge Typhoid Mary knocked Daredevil off, trying to kill herself but her Typhoid side keeps interfering. Daredevil is slowly healing while having a vision of Stick. He's attacked by a demonized broken vacuum cleaner that begins strangling him. He manages to defeat it and Mary sees he wasn't dead after all.

In DD 263 the portal to Limbo is open and demons are terrorizing citizens of New York. Kingpin is brooding in his office. Typhoid Mary consorts with a demon. It appears she got Daredevil to a hospital and he is hooked on life support, healing. Karen Page is watching over him. Mary shows up and upsets Karen by claiming she is Daredevil's lover. Karen runs out into the street into a demon possessed drug alley. Kingpin is interrupted during his work-out by a minion (Arranger?) who informs him "a crack in space" is spilling demons into Manhattan. Kingpin doesn't care. Daredevil wakes up in time to stop demonized medical equipment from attacking him and leaves the hospital wrapped in bandages. He fights a demonized subway train. Typhoid Mary tells Kingpin Daredevil is actually still alive. He's in his office, dressed in a suit now. She appears to be demon possessed with a weird horned crown thing on her head. She actually flies through the air at one point. The demon with her tells the Kingpin he sold his soul to them long ago. Daredevil defeats the demonized subway train, saving the passengers. Butch finds him collapsed.

WOS 48 takes pace during the demon invasion. Spider-Man is injured from his fight in PPTSS 147 where he barely managed to make it to the Daily Bugle and help them fight off a wave of demons. This is after Hobgoblin is demonized there by N'astirh (who is red and not green). Spider-Man leaves to find Mary Jane. At Kingpin's tower, a demon breaks in and says his boss N'astirh says it can eat them but the Kingpin punches it in the face and it blows up. He says to the Arranger, "I don't know what's happening to this city, Arranger-- and frankly, I don't much care, unless it interfere's with my plans for the destruction of that masked vigilante-- Daredevil! You're payed to arrange matters so that I remain undisturbed by day-to-day affairs. Is that task beyond your capabilities? Must I contemplate the termination of your employment?" In Central Park the Hobgoblin sees the demonic changes N'astirh made to his eyes (in PPTSS 147) in a pond and spots the Lizard running past, thinking he's part of the Inferno. He then sees Spider-Man swing past and attacks. They fight.


Interestingly enough, Kingpin's appearance in WOS 48 could actually take place either between scenes of DD 263 or after (but probably after?).

Also interesting, The Arranger appears in PPTSS 146 ("part 2" of Spider-Man's Inferno crossover issues. WOS 48 is "part 6") where about 20 "mob lieutenants" were massacred in the Starlight Room, Midtown Manhattan. Whoever killed them left a note scrawled in their blood: "Kingpin- wolves kill". There is a reference that this ties in with a "slasher-killing at the zoo a few nights ago". The Arranger shows up because Kingpin owns the place. Spider-Man & Harry Osborne are attacked by demonized pipes at one of Harry's factories. This takes place in the heatwave leading up to the portal to Limbo opening.
Last edited by metaldragon on Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kingpin

Post by Col_Fury »

So in DD 260, Typhoid Mary defeats Daredevil. In DD 261, Daredevil lies unconscious. In DD 262, Daredevil wakes up. Meanwhile, Inferno is creeping closer in DD 261 and Inferno starts happening in DD 262.

Right?
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Re: Kingpin

Post by metaldragon »

Col_Fury wrote:So in DD 260, Typhoid Mary defeats Daredevil. In DD 261, Daredevil lies unconscious. In DD 262, Daredevil wakes up. Meanwhile, Inferno is creeping closer in DD 261 and Inferno starts happening in DD 262.

Right?
Pretty much, though the portal to Limbo that unleashes the demons happens between DD 262 & 263 (or BTS in the opening pages of 263 if you go by the dialogue). DD 260 mentions the heat wave as well (so that's definitely while N'astirh is on Earth casting his spells during XTERM 1-3) and pretty much from DD 260-265 it's a fairly continuous story that takes place over the course of the day leading up to Inferno and then Inferno itself in 263 & 265. (264 is a story that takes place after Inferno that got pushed forward in publication order because JRJR was behind on his art for the deadline.)

Typhoid Mary ties the Kinpin to Daredevil during this timespan.
Last edited by metaldragon on Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kingpin

Post by Col_Fury »

Sweet.

So according to Spider-Man's chronology, PPTSS 143 happens entirely pre-Inferno. DD 261 is tied to Inferno, so PPTSS 143 needs to be moved to before DD 261 in Kingpin's chronology.

WOSM 48 is part of Inferno, and according to the Uncanny X-Men Index's Inferno sidebar, WOSM 48 happens after DD 263, so WOSM 48 needs to be moved to before PWJ 1 in Kingpin's chronology.

KINGPIN/WILSON FISK

WOSM@ 4
*PPTSS 143 (move to here)
DD 261
DD 263
*PPTSS 143 (move from here)
*WOSM 48 (move to here)
PWJ 1
PUN2 14-BTS
PUN2 15
PUN2 16
PUN2 17
PUN2 18
TM:BB (22 - 27)
*WOSM 48 (move from here)
PPTSS 149-BTS
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Re: Kingpin

Post by metaldragon »

I guess the question is, what happens with the Kingpin during the Punisher issues? Is it before or after Inferno? They were published during the same months Inferno took place but they don't have the Inferno tie-in logo on the covers. And are they in any way related to the massacre in PPTSS 146 and it's "Kingpin- wolves kill" message? Or is that only a story arc that continues in PPTSS 149-150 unrelated to the Punisher story? (I don't own those other issues. We need a Punisher expert.)
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Re: Kingpin

Post by Col_Fury »

The Punisher comics have nothing at all to do with Inferno; It's a totally unrelated story (basically, Punisher tries to kill the Kingpin). However, the X-Men do have a cameo in PUN2 18, which is placed after UX 245. So yeah, these Punisher comics are post-Inferno.
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Re: Kingpin

Post by metaldragon »

Cool. Looks good!
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