Elektra: Assassin & the US President

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

Moderators: Paul Bourcier, Kevin W., Col_Fury, Arthur, JephYork, Somebody

Locked
User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6278
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Elektra: Assassin & the US President

Post by Col_Fury » Tue May 27, 2014 5:46 pm

The Elektra: Assassin miniseries, when published (1986-1987), took place in the nebulous past… sometime before DD 168 (early 1981, Elektra’s first appearance). It’s currently placed between CA 132 & CA 135 for Nick Fury (or, around comics published in early 1971).

The US President appears in Elektra: Assassin… but we don’t currently have any US Presidents listed as appearing in Elektra: Assassin. We do have Ken Wind, who was elected President (and took office) at the end of the mini (and turned out to be a power-mad crazy person influenced by the Beast of the Hand), but not the President that Wind defeated. Who is the US President in Elektra: Assassin? It’s Richard Nixon.

Ah! (you say), Richard Nixon killed himself in front of Captain America in CA 175 (Wasp says it was a “highly placed government official” in AVF 2, but Cap himself confirms it was the President in CA:REBORN 3) while he was President. Nixon couldn’t have been defeated in an election since he died while he was still in office. Well… (I say), the President did kill himself in CA 175, but we never see his face, and he’s never called by his name. WAS it Nixon?

So, we have Richard Nixon being defeated in a Presidential election in the Elektra: Assassin mini. We also have a power-mad crazy person as President at the end of the Elektra: Assassin mini who’s never appeared since and was last seen in Elektra: Assassin still in office. AND, we also have a power-mad crazy person as President in CA 175 that ends up killing himself. Do you see where I’m going with this?

We’d have to ignore that Nixon was already in his second term by this point (circa CA 175, mid 1974), and couldn’t have run for a third term. BUT! That’s Nixon in Elektra: Assassin; it has to go in his chronology somewhere. Maybe in the Marvel Universe Nixon only served one term? After all, there was never a real President Ken Wind, and yet, there he is in Elektra: Assassin #8. In any case, the Elektra: Assassin mini would have to go near or at the end of Nixon’s chronology.

Now, Wind defeats Nixon in the election in Elektra: Assassin #7, and Elektra: Assassin #8 happens FOUR MONTHS LATER with Wind already in office. Nixon appears in H2 174, which was published two months before CA 175. I don’t think we can squeeze four months of Marvel Time between H2 174 and CA 175, so what if the election seen in Elektra: Assassin #7 happens before H2 174, H2 174 happens sometime before Wind is inaugurated, then Elektra: Assassin #8 happens, then CA 175 happens?

It would look like this in the listings:

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH

WTS 5
*E:A 3-BTS (move from here)
*E:A 4 (move from here)
*E:A 5 (move from here)
*E:A 6 (move from here)
*E:A 7 (move from here)
FFWGCM 6

CA 167
*E:A 3-BTS (move to here)
*E:A 4 (move to here)
*E:A 5 (move to here)
*E:A 6 (move to here)
*E:A 7 (move to here)
A 118


NIXON, RICHARD MILHOUS

A 101-BTS
*E:A 3-FB
*E:A 5
*E:A 6
*E:A 7
H2 174
**CA 175 (delete)

WIND, KEN

E:A 8
*CA 175
*AVF 2-FB
*AVF 12

Thoughts?
-Daron Jensen

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6278
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: Elektra: Assassin & the US President

Post by Col_Fury » Tue May 27, 2014 8:28 pm

OR!

I suppose Nixon could have killed himself after he was defeated by Wind, and before Wind was inaugurated. Actually, I like this option better.

Thoughts?
-Daron Jensen

Paul Bourcier
Director
Director
Posts: 5424
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:51 am
Location: Florida

Re: Elektra: Assassin & the US President

Post by Paul Bourcier » Tue May 27, 2014 9:54 pm

Okay, let's see how this all looks against the ol' Olshevsky calendar...

First, Col_Fury's proposal:
CA 167 happens in April of Peter Parker's junior year of college
A 118 happens in early May of Peter Parker's junior year of college
So, no presidential election between those two issues.

Now, the current MCP placement:
CA 132 happens in late October of Peter Parker's sophomore year of college
CA 135 happens in late December of Peter Parker's sophomore year of college
So, yes, there could be a presidential election between those issues.

According to Olshevsky's Official Marvel Index to the Avengers #3, Elektra: Assassin occurs during the two or three months after the September of Avengers #61.

That means the election shown in E:A 7 occurs within a week after the Halloween of A 83 and E:A 3-7 go right where they are in the MCP. (A 83 happens during the span of time covered in E:A 3-7.) Olshevsky notes that the abnormally premature snowstorms of E:A are part of a season of such storms also shown in ASM 85, H2 115, and DD 52-53.

The MCP shows Nixon as president twice before this election -- in H2 119 (perhaps late September of Peter Parker's sophomore year of college) and A 82 (late October, a month later). Nixon's face is unrevealed in A 82, so maybe it's not him? That's definitely him in H2 119, but he's in a meeting with top brass and is not referred to specifically by title. Maybe he's VP or Secretary of Defense here?

But wait! After the election, Nixon appears unmistakably in FF 103-104 and he's referred to as "Mr. President." FF 103-104 occur in early December, before Ken Wind's presumed inauguration in January. Nixon also appears in H2 139, later that same December; it is indeed Nixon and he's indeed the president ("make no mistake"). So, yeah, Wind must defeat Nixon in the election.

A 92 occurs in late January, after Wind's inauguration and before his appearance in E:A 8 (in March, four months after the election). So the BTS president in this issue would have to be Wind, not Nixon.

I don't own AT 1/2, so I don't know if Nixon's face is shown. If it is, I'd argue for placing this before the January inauguration, so chronologically before A 92.

Then we come to CA 144. It's now the summer between Peter Parker's sophomore and junior years of college, just a few months after Wind's appearance as president in E:A 8. And there he is -- it's definitely Nixon and he's definitely president.

President Nixon also makes a bunch of appearances after this point.

So Wind defeats Nixon in November, takes office in January, is president in March, but he's gone by summer...and Nixon is somehow back as chief executive. How does that happen? Hey, it's the Marvel Universe. Maybe Wind and everyone in line for the presidency were killed somehow and Nixon was brought in to reestablish some continuity. Is there a good catastrophe in the MU during this time? :)

Another tack...

We do see a presidential election season in DEF@ 1 in the fall (perhaps September) of Peter Parker's final undergraduate year of college. And there's a reference to the following presidential inauguration in FF 178. Hmm. This is only three years after the presidential election of E:A 7 as currently placed. An Olshevsky fan wouldn't put only three years between elections, would he?

If THIS were the election in which Wind was voted into office, it would:

1) Occur quite a while after Nixon's suicide in CA 175, so no two separate stints for Tricky Dick.
2) Still occur before Elektra's appearance in DD 168, which would occur a couple of months after the March setting of E:A 8. It really wouldn't affect her chronology, except perhaps for COH 2 (33:4-36:5), which might now go between E:A 7 and E:A 8, but I'm not sure about this.

This later placement would mean Fury is in E:A 3-7 between SW:O 3 (7:1) (July) and M/TU 51 (early November).

This would also mean that Wind defeated Gerald Ford in the election of E:A 7. Ford's last appearance was in the aforementioned DEF@ 1.

But wait. Jimmy Carter, not Ken Wind, is inaugurated that next January 20 in M/TIO 27. And I believe Carter is seen the previous summer, during the presidential campaign season, in HTD 8.

Hmm. Maybe Carter was campaigning and being inaugurated as Wind's VP??? And maybe Wind makes his March appearance as president in E:A 8 right before Carter appears as president in CHAMP 17 later that same month?

Is CB 27 placed incorrectly in Jimmy Carter's chronology? CB 27 occurs before CA 193, which occurs shortly before the celebration of the nation's bicentennial in July (before the election). Is Carter a presidential candidate in CB 27?

Okay, I noodled this long enough. Discuss...
Paul B.

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6278
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: Elektra: Assassin & the US President

Post by Col_Fury » Wed May 28, 2014 5:33 am

Paul Bourcier wrote:So Wind defeats Nixon in November, takes office in January, is president in March, but he's gone by summer...and Nixon is somehow back as chief executive. How does that happen? Hey, it's the Marvel Universe. Maybe Wind and everyone in line for the presidency were killed somehow and Nixon was brought in to reestablish some continuity. Is there a good catastrophe in the MU during this time? :)
Yuck.
Paul Bourcier wrote:This later placement would mean Fury is in E:A 3-7 between SW:O 3 (7:1) (July) and M/TU 51 (early November).

This would also mean that Wind defeated Gerald Ford in the election of E:A 7. Ford's last appearance was in the aforementioned DEF@ 1.
Nope. It's unmistakably Nixon in Elektra: Assassin.

What If…? the election seen in Elektra: Assassin was a special election for some reason?

Also, how much time passes between H2 174 and H2 185? Nixon appears in H2 174 and Ford appears in H2 185; in theory Ken Wind was President at some point between those two Hulk comics.

Also, Carter is only called a "V.I.P." (Very Important Person) by Nick Fury in CB 27, though it's fairly obvious he's intended to be the President (CB 27 is cover dated April 1977). I suppose this could happen after Carter was elected but before his inauguration, if it HAD to be.
-Daron Jensen

Paul Bourcier
Director
Director
Posts: 5424
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:51 am
Location: Florida

Re: Elektra: Assassin & the US President

Post by Paul Bourcier » Wed May 28, 2014 6:12 am

Actually, I miscalculated the span of time between where we currently have E:A 7 and the time of DEF@ 1. Peter Parker's junior make-up year of college messed me up. It is indeed four years. The election that occurred the week after the Halloween of A 83 occurred in Year 3 of the Avengers' history. The election that occurred after the campaign seen in DEF@ 1 (the election seen in M/TE 12) occurred in Year 7 of the Avengers' history.

So if we're anchored to an Olshevsky calendar with presidential elections every four years, those are our two choices for placement. The next earlier election would occur before AAF 15; the next later election would be too late in Elektra's chronology.

By the way, the same election season shown in DEF@ 1 and M/TE 12 (and noted in M/TIO 66) is the one that saw Robert Kelly get elected as senator (as noted in a FB in X-Men Forever #3).

However...

The Cap for President story in CA 250 occurs the following year (Year 8 of the Avengers' history)! Talk about planning way in advance! And Robert Kelly is up for re-election during that same season, as seen in UX 141. Maybe Kelly's first election was a special election. But still, you wouldn't have a normal senatorial election only one year after a presidential election.

And Sam Wilson runs for Congress two years after that, in CA 272. But maybe that's a special election.

This is probably just the tip of the political election iceberg in the MU. And I'm sure the more examples we find, the murkier things get. But I'll still throw out the hypothesis that Wind ran on a ticket with Jimmy Carter has his running mate. He defeated Gerald Ford but his tenure in office was only two months. Something happened (death?), and Carter assumed the office of POTUS.

Then again, you could also subscribe to the notion that, with the exception of fictional characters like Wind, POTUS is a topical character in the MU -- that is to say, artists' renditions of this character reflect the appearance of the actual president in our reality and are not meant to be taken literally. What's that disclaimer in the indicia -- "any resemblance to actual people living or dead..." or some such.
Paul B.

Paul Bourcier
Director
Director
Posts: 5424
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:51 am
Location: Florida

Re: Elektra: Assassin & the US President

Post by Paul Bourcier » Wed May 28, 2014 6:22 am

Now to address Col_Fury's post.

It's Nixon in E:A? Drat. So much for my theory.

I have H2 174 in November and H2 185 the following late July. So at first glance, from a calendar perspective (without reference to which year it is), Wind could have just been elected when H2 174 happens (Nixon in office) and his March appearance in E:A 8 could occur before H2 185 (Ford in office).

So, again throwing out the every four years consideration, Wind could have run with Ford as running mate, defeated Nixon, then was replaced by Ford. But that would require Ford to be on a different ticket than Nixon. In the MU I suppose that could happen.
Paul B.

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6278
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: Elektra: Assassin & the US President

Post by Col_Fury » Wed May 28, 2014 8:09 am

Well, in the real world of course, Ford never ran on the same ticket as Nixon. After VP Spirow Agnew resigned, Ford moved up to VP. Then Nixon quit, and Ford moved up again. Ford's the only President to never have been elected into the Presidential office, remember.

So, we're roughly looking at this series of events I guess (assuming the Watergate scandal (or something widely similar) also happened in the Marvel Universe, which I'm sure it did) :

Spirow Agnew resigns the VP position and Ford moves up to VP (unseen/real world). Wind defeats Nixon in an election (E:A 7). Nixon (the Secret Empire's Number One!) shoots himself in the face in front of Captain America (CA 175). Ford moves up to President (for like, a month) (unseen). Wind is inaugurated and Ford moves back down to House Minority Leader (unseen). Wind goes crazy (E:A 8) and eventually is no longer President (he's either klilled or removed from office; who knows?). For some reason, his VP is also removed from office at the same time (also killed, maybe? Proven to be involved with the Hand like Wind was, maybe?), and Ford moves back up the chain (again). Yay, Gerald Ford! :)

Now I wonder; Cap took a while in deciding to abandon his Captain America identity after watching Nixon shoot himself in the face. Could Wind's Presidency have ended before Cap made his decision? And, having seen two Presidents in a row go crazy with power-lust, helped push Cap over the edge in losing faith in America? I mean, watching the President kill himself is bad enough, but then the guy that followed him ALSO went nuts, right?

Back to Carter:

So does this stretch of CB comics need to be moved in Captain America's, Nick Fury's and Red Skull's chronologies? Or should a new topic be started for this?
-Daron Jensen

User avatar
Russ Chappell
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4275
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:40 pm
Location: Tuscaloosa, AL
Contact:

Re: Elektra: Assassin & the US President

Post by Russ Chappell » Wed May 28, 2014 9:22 am

Col_Fury wrote:Wind is inaugurated and Ford moves back down to House Minority Leader (unseen). Wind goes crazy (E:A 8) and eventually is no longer President (he's either klilled or removed from office; who knows?). For some reason, his VP is also removed from office at the same time (also killed, maybe? Proven to be involved with the Hand like Wind was, maybe?), and Ford moves back up the chain (again). Yay, Gerald Ford! :)
As House Minority Leader, he'd never make it back to the White House. Did you mean Speaker of the House?

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6278
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: Elektra: Assassin & the US President

Post by Col_Fury » Thu May 29, 2014 3:01 am

Oops! :)
-Daron Jensen

Paul Bourcier
Director
Director
Posts: 5424
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:51 am
Location: Florida

Re: Elektra: Assassin & the US President

Post by Paul Bourcier » Thu May 29, 2014 6:19 am

Col_Fury wrote:
Now I wonder; Cap took a while in deciding to abandon his Captain America identity after watching Nixon shoot himself in the face. Could Wind's Presidency have ended before Cap made his decision?
Yes, indeed. Rogers abandoned his Cap role in CA 176 in late June, months after Wind was last seen as President in E:A 8 (March). Ford is seen as president in H2 185 in July.

Well, I have to say I think your explanation of the sequence of events is about as good as we're going to get here. Shall we all go with this for the chronology, or are there any problems we haven't noticed?

Let's start a new thread about CB...
Paul B.

wolframbane
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 923
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:34 am

Re: Elektra: Assassin & the US President

Post by wolframbane » Sun Jun 01, 2014 3:50 am

Would anyone be aware of any other fictional or non-historical US Presidents or Vice Presidents within the modern era Earth-616, besides President Ken Wind (Elektra: Assassin #8) and Vice President Hardy (mentioned in Angel: Revelations)?

wolframbane
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 923
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:34 am

Re: Elektra: Assassin & the US President

Post by wolframbane » Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:59 am

We are working on the assumption that the President who killed himself in question in CA 175 was Nixon. We know that it was the President as in Captain America: Reborn #3, Cap states "Two hours ago I watched a President betray his country and I gave up my shield to become Nomad." But despite the implication that it was Nixon, the President may have actually been Ken Wind. Being the head of the terrorist Secret Empire does seem to be more like Wind's style than Nixon. AND Wind could not have been President for too long, as Gerald Ford was soon shown in the position.

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6278
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: Elektra: Assassin & the US President

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:58 pm

It could have been Wind given everything we have to work with (and that's the direction I was leaning in originally), but CA 175 HEAVILY implies it was Nixon, and I'd like to keep that original creator's intent if possible.
-Daron Jensen

Locked