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Re: Original Sin chronology

Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:32 pm
by Jason Doty
I'm just going by memory here.
*Jason, you place Thor's appearances in W6 5, 10 and 12 after Original Sin. Why can't these issues occur before Original Sin?
I think it has to do with knowing the location of Cyclop's team and Mystique/Dazzler.

Edit* Mystique, posing as Dazzler appears in Deadpool during Original Sin and Wolverine does not know the location of Cyclops group until after She-Hulk says who must be present before reading the will.

Shedding some (thunder) light

Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:20 am
by Antonio Gaviño
Hey Paul,
Let me direct you to OS 8 page 23 panel 1.
There we see the Avengers standing among the rubble after the explosion of the Watcher's home on the moon; Thor holding Mjolnir by his right leg, he is not trying to lift it from the ground. This scene occurs after Fury's whisper that causes Thor to first lose his ability to lift Mjolnir (OS 7) and before the Avengers quinjet goes back to Earth leaving Thor behind (at the end of OS 8), once again him trying to lift his hammer up.
From that we can deduce that whatever effect Nick's whisper had on Thor worked on and off for a while, at least temporarily, to then work indefinitely, to the point of Thor being unable to lift Mjolnir for good. Before that happened, he must have gone back to Earth with control of Mjolnir to appear in all those books where we see him with it and where Steve Rogers is in old condition, then back to the moon to lose control of Mjolnir one last time.
Why would he go back to the moon? Maybe to try to figure the reason he couldn't lift the hammer before? Don't know. I would just chalk it up to unexplained circumstances since Marvel most likely won't ever provide an answer to that.

Re: Original Sin chronology

Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:18 am
by Paul Bourcier
Hmm. I hadn't even noticed that panel. Oh, for the love of...

Thanks for exploring another possible explanation, Antonio. It would allow Thor to use Mjolnir in stories set after Original Sin, but as you note, there are some unexplained bits that don't appear to make sense -- the off and on nature of Thor's ability to raise the hammer, and Thor's return to the moon.

Is it better to say that Stark supplied Thor with Ragnarok's hammer (or a duplicate of it) and that it's this hammer we see in all those comics? That still wouldn't explain Thor holding the hammer in that one panel in OS 8, which we'd have to chalk up to art error.

Then we'd have to figure that Thor gave up the fake hammer in favor of the ax for some unknown reason.

Re: Original Sin chronology

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:42 am
by Antonio Gaviño
Unless Marvel says otherwise I prefer the off and on explanation, it happens on panel, it would be using evidence from the books themselves. There's no evidence of a fake hammer.

Re: Original Sin chronology

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:34 am
by Paul Bourcier
And the last time we saw Ragnarok, he was actively using his hammer (which doesn't really look like Mjolnir) as a member of the Dark Avengers (Dark Avengers #190). Hey, whatever happened to that group?

Re: Original Sin chronology

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:47 am
by Midnighter
Paul Bourcier wrote:And the last time we saw Ragnarok, he was actively using his hammer (which doesn't really look like Mjolnir) as a member of the Dark Avengers (Dark Avengers #190). Hey, whatever happened to that group?
Toxie Doxie was in Avengers Assemble (the Inhumanity tie-ins), Trickshot II was in Hawkeye, but I don't know about the others...

Re: Original Sin chronology

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:12 am
by milamber
According to Breevort, Thor appearing with his hammer at "Cap, the Tomorrow Soldier" is a chronicle's error, and Steve took a long time to act after learning on the Iluminati's action. I do not know if this "fixes" up some or the continuity glitches or just make more of them.

(Source: ... ry-at-tony)

Re: Original Sin chronology

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:59 pm
by Jason Doty
So, Breevort says to ignore Thor's hammer, it's an error. I'm not up for pretending its an ax, so I'd say it's just a hammer and not Mjolnir and move on.

Re: Original Sin chronology

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:34 pm
by Somebody
Paul Bourcier wrote:After Thor loses the ability to lift Mjolnir in OS 8 and before the events of T4 1, he is called away from his struggle to lift the hammer on the moon for various appearances. Those appearances include the following issues:

Avengers v5 #25-28
A5 28 ties into All-New Invaders #8, which occurs several days after the explosion of secrets from Uatu’s eye (All-New Invaders #6). Original Sin has to have wrapped up by now. These issues aren’t likely to occur during OS.

Avengers v5 #29-33
These are the issues in which Cap acts on the information he learned in OS about the Illuminati. Rogers is still Cap here.
Wait, I don't read that book, but I saw a scan with something... *searches*... ah, yes. This:
A5 31 (15).jpg
A5 31 (15).jpg (133.86 KiB) Viewed 1376 times
Isn't that a future Thor, remembering Mjolnir at this time?

[And, whatever continuity ****-ups occurred, I'm pretty sure an issue with "Original Sin" trade dress is intended to occur DURING Original Sin...]

Re: Original Sin chronology

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:26 pm
by Paul Bourcier
[And, whatever continuity ****-ups occurred, I'm pretty sure an issue with "Original Sin" trade dress is intended to occur DURING Original Sin...]
Or is a marketing tool... :wink:

Anyway, the scene you posted isn't any of the appearances I noted. I don't know what the source comic is.

Re: Original Sin chronology

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 6:24 pm
by Somebody
Avengers v5 #31 (note the filename!).

Re: Original Sin chronology

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:37 pm
by Paul Bourcier
Ah, I see. But present-day Thor does appear with the hammer in the story arc, yes?

Re: Original Sin chronology

Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:21 am
by milamber
Present day Thor does appears with a hammer and armor in that story arc.
However there is no mention to the hammer being Mjolnir and, for all Thor uses it for, it could actually be a fake hammer,

Re: Original Sin chronology

Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:29 pm
by robfj

I have another large problem trying to reconcile stuff around Original Sin which I can't see mentioned anywhere.

But before I get to it I'll just add 1 bit to the Thor discussion. In Avengers & X-Men: Axis #1-3 Thor does appear bare-chested with Jarnbjorn. But if he's got a prosthetic arm it's much more discreet than the metal one future him has in Avengers v5 #35-36. We await Thor #3 to see what it's *supposed* to look like.

My problem is with the Hulk. I can't connect his appearances in Avengers and New Avengers with his apps elsewhere.

The story in OS#3.1-3.4 fits seamlessly in with Hulk's own mag. His brain damage gets cured by the Starks and Extremis in Hu#4. He uses Extremis in the OS offshoot to upgrade himself to Doc Green, leading in to Hu#5. The offshoot and OS#3 basically agree that the Hulk/Iron Man stuff happens immediately after the Eye incident. The only question may be reconciling some of Hulk's behaviour in later OS with his Doc Green intelligence.

My problem is that Hulk seems to be leading a completely separate life in Av/NAv. The central point is Av#28 where Bruce Banner joins the Illuminati. As I read it he and Tony Stark pull a scam where the Banner from another timeline gets blamed for a big Hulk rampage and put in SHIELD prison in a state where he can't protest his innocence and real identity. While SHIELD and everybody else think Hulk's there, Banner slips away to live in the Illuminati base in Wakanda from NAv#17. And nothing's changed that status quo in subsequent New Avengers issues (at least before they jumped forward 8 months).

This might have been all well and good if we'd been allowed to assume that this whole long Av/NAv story happened before OS, and we could shoehorn this Hulk stuff somewhere earlier in the Hulk continuity. But then Av#29 had Captain America remembering what the Illuminati were up to, and the cover logo leads us to believe that it's because of the Eye in OS#3.

Cap immediately gets taken into the future. And when he returns the comic skips ahead 8 months. So we could be forgiven for proposing that the events from Av#29 on happen sometime later than Av#28 and the following present-day NAv issues. Cap *does* refer back in Av#29 to the previous Av arc (the Avengers from an alternate timeline) as if it had only just happened - but that's par for the course.

However Iron Man gets sent back to the present in Av#30, and appears in NAv#18 with the injuries he got from Hawkeye in the future. So the 2 titles are still connected in present time.

So that leaves us with the question of who's the Hulk working openly in OS if the world thinks he's in SHIELD prison, and the real 1's hiding in Wakanda? (I don't think it's the 1 in prison that's been woken up. Unless they woke him up and he didn't tell them who he really is, and the latest adventures of Hulk actually feature this fake.)

Another possibility is that Cap's remembering doesn't have anything to do with the OS Eye. (He is shown as affected in OS, but in Av#29 he just wakes up 1 morning with his memory returned.) We could then be free to try to set the Av/NAv storyline outside of OS. But I think we'd still have problems.

The Av/NAv issues set 8 months later *do* have Doc Green in the Illuminati (along with other current/upcoming status changes). But that doesn't help us now.

We may have to wait 8 months for the answer. Who really believes all the other Marvel comics are going to (successfully) conspire during those 8 months to produce the world shown in the latest Av/NAv issues? (And 8 months of comics isn't 8 months of Marvel time.) It's much more likely that like Age of Ultron and Uncanny Avengers it will all be reset/made an alternate future.

That will leave us with a different problem - which events are still true? Luckily the only other title that seems to be joining in the conspiracy is All-New Invaders, with #8 showing Banner joining the Illuminati, and #10 where Cap is miffed with Illuminati Namor.

Re: Original Sin chronology

Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:46 am
by Paul Bourcier
Good points, robfj. I'll look into these myself, although it may take a while, given my current schedule. Other folks, feel free to chime in.

I really hate resets.