Original Sin chronology

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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Re: Original Sin chronology

Post by Paul Bourcier » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:30 am

So can we assume that Thor was using both Thorr's hammer and Jarnbjorn for a period of time following Original Sin?

Interesting that Thorr usede that hammer to teleport the alterenate Avengers away in the flashback in Avengers #26. I guess although the alt Avengers disappeared, the hammer stayed behind??
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Re: Original Sin chronology

Post by milamber » Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:55 am

AIM brought Alternate Avengers to Earth-616, then AIM Adaptoids fought against them and Thorr used his hammer to teleport them (minus Hank Pym) away.
Afterwards, Avengers-616 fought against them and Thorr lost his hammer.
After that, in Avengers #28, AIM sent Thorr and the other Alternate Avengers to Earth-83292.

The only glitch in this theory is that Thorr is actually drawn with his hammer while going over the "stargate" to another universe, but this glitch is far minor than Thor-616 having Mjlonir after he became unworthy in Original Sin.

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Re: Original Sin chronology

Post by robfj » Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:10 am

New Avenger #27 also has something to say about Thor and Axis. In the future setting Dr Strange is surprised to see Thor with a prosthetic arm.

DS has apparently been off in Nothing Space with the Black Priests for most of the 8 month gap. But we know he was in Axis with Thor. This suggests that Thor didn't have his prosthesis in Axis, and he certainly appears to have 2 normal arms there. This and the lack of any mention of the female Thor in Axis suggests that (at least most of) the opening arc of the new Thor series is post-Axis.

But Thor does have Jarnbjorn in Axis. He takes this up as his Mjolnir replacement at the beginning of Thor #1. Then he goes to Earth, has a fight with Malekith and loses his arm. Then female Thor picks up Mjolnir. (We won't see his arm replacement until Th#3.)

There's no real reason why the Malekith fight has to happen straight after the beginning of Th#1. There's room to place 2-armed bare-chested Jarnbjorn apps like Axis in between.

And as argued by others certain Thor+hammer apps could be placed between the end of Original Sin and Th#1, with Thorr's hammer replacing Mjolnir.

The DS evidence is a bit shaky however. New Avengers #23 showed him picking up the Black Priest helmet he had acquired and disappearing with it. With hindsight this is obviously meant to show him going to join the BPs. But NAv#23 is written as following on immediately from the previous issues, which supposedly tie back to Original Sin. This would mean DS wouldn't be available for Axis and other apps.

I can see 3 ways out of this:-

1) DS didn't go the the BPs then.

2) The incursion in NAv#23 and the last 3 panels of #22 doesn't *have* to occur immediately after the Great Society incursion of the previous few issues.

3) The 8 month ahead future of current Av/NAv is an alternate future that branched off before Axis. Against that is the fact that it includes the recent changes aged Steve Rogers, SamCap, Doc Green, unworthy Thor and as of NAv#26 the Axis-born Superior version of Iron Man.

The final resolution of this may have to wait for the end of Time Runs Out.

Incidentally I'm revising my estimate of Hickman's plans upwards. I suspect he's aiming higher than an alternate timeline. I suspect he's aiming higher than the destruction and recreation of the universe, which we've seen before going back as far as the Dr Strange Sise-Neg/Genesis story. I think he intends the death and rebirth of the multiverse.

I just hope Marvel isn't planning a New 52! (But this would explain why they've allowed major changes like the ones above and female Thor if they can all be wiped clean later.) Then we can all just go in a corner and cry.

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Re: Original Sin chronology

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:21 am

milamber wrote:
The only glitch in this theory is that Thorr is actually drawn with his hammer while going over the "stargate" to another universe
If that's the only glitch, that that IS easier to ignore than pretending that a hammer is a battleaxe in several of Thor's post-Original Sin appearances.


robfj wrote:
1) DS didn't go the the BPs then.
The easiest explanation. I'd go with this until other evidence suggests that another solution is necessary.

robfj wrote:
He takes this up as his Mjolnir replacement at the beginning of Thor #1.
In Thor #1, Thor goes to the Hall of Weapons to fetch Jarnbjorn. One could interpret this as the point at which Thor adopted Jarnbjorn as his chosen weapon, and that he shouldn't be seen with Jarnbjorn before this. However, could the Hall of Weapons just be the place where Thor stores Jarnbjorn when he's not using it? If any Thor appearances with Janbjorn (e.g., Axis) need to occur before Thor #1, that's not necessarily a problem.

Could there be a period during which Thor uses both Thorr's hammer and Jarnbjorn while still trying to retrieve Mjolnir from the moon?
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Re: Original Sin chronology

Post by robfj » Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:29 am

Thor has had Jarnbjorn since the end of the Ragnarok/Planet X storyline in Uncanny Avengers #22. After he retrieved it from the Apocalypse Twins who stole it from Kang who had it for ages. That story arc occurs before Axis and indeed before Cap gets old. But where it fits vis-a-vis Original Sin I don't know. Just from its spread of publication dates it ought to be before OS.

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Re: Original Sin chronology

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:32 pm

Good point. Thor's had access to Jarnbjorn for quite some time, and it's easy to think he was using it before he retrieved it in Thor #1.

Thor's working out...but where are we with Hulk's recent chronology?
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Re: Original Sin chronology

Post by robfj » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:20 pm

I haven't seen anything to shed more light on the Hulk problem. Personally I'm waiting for Time Runs Out to finish before picking over the debris to sort out what is actually true in the main timeline. But Avengers World is going to explain some of what happened in the missing 8 months, so maybe the Hulk situation will be addressed there.

But Thor #3 has arrived, and male Thor turns up at the end sporting the obviously metal prosthetic arm as featured in Hickman's Avengers future issues. So his 2 bare arms in Axis (still prominently on show in a 1-panel appearance in #7) are either a mistake or that Event happened before at least this part of the Thor series.

I could recap my suggestion that we can insert Axis in a gap near the beginning of Thor #1, after he comes to Earth with Jarnbjorn and before the main plot begins where he loses the arm. But the comic does say that he's going to Earth to get involved in that plotline. And he does start out in Thor #1 with his bare-chested look trying again to lift Mjolnir. So he's obviously left the Moon at least once since Original Sin to change clothes.

So it's even easier to agree with other suggestions that he could have left the Moon many times and kept coming back for another go at Mjolnir. And any of his appearances in question could be between OS and the new Thor, wielding either Jarnbjorn or Thorr's hammer, both of which he could keep in his armoury.

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Re: Original Sin chronology

Post by Michael » Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:45 am

Marvel just released a preview of Loki: Agent of Asgard 9:
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page ... w&id=25199
There's a note that says "This story takes place during the events of Axis 9 and before the events of Thor 1".

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Re: Original Sin chronology

Post by milamber » Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:38 am

I have not been following Hulk's chronology, but another conumdrum which IMO makes no sense is Steve Rogers' age.

Eight months later Rogers is still aged, so we have to either shoehorn all unaged Rogers appearences before Captain America 21, or somehow believe Rogers was deaged and aged again during the eight months gap (something that IMO makes no sense)

That means that either the Avengers - OS tie-in takes place before Captain America 21 (and, by extension, before Axis) or there is an artist error and elder Rogers borrowed his shield from Falcon in order to attack Iron Man.

I don't think how we can make sense of any of these two options. It makes no sense for Rogers and Stark to cooperate after Rogers assembles a team of Avengers to hunt down Stark, and it makes no sense to have elder Rogers trying to hunt down Stark in the Avengers - OS story arc.

If I had to choose I would say that the "Origin Sin" trade dress is just a marketing gimmik and that Avengers story arc took place much later than OS (I don't remember OS being refrenced on panel, and somehow we could explain that Strange's magic wore off naturally or due to some event not related to Uatu's eye) and go with the second option (artist error showing unaged Rogers while in reality he was aged in that story arc), but this required far too much suspension of disbelief...

This would mean:
OS > Axis > Avengers: Infinite Avengers (with artist error showing unaged Rogers while he was actually aged) > "Eight months" > Time Runs Out

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Re: Original Sin chronology

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Dec 21, 2014 3:39 pm

milamber wrote:
If I had to choose I would say that the "Origin Sin" trade dress is just a marketing gimmik and that Avengers story arc took place much later than O
Yup. Current wisdom points to a gap between Original Sin and Avengers #29-34.

And the whole post-OS Rogers-Stark relationship appears to be...complicated.
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Re: Original Sin chronology

Post by Michael » Thu Dec 25, 2014 9:45 pm

Breevort on Axis, Original Sin and Thor 1:
http://www.newsarama.com/23083-tom-brev ... igins.html
I can talk about this now that Axis is complete – all of this series takes place before Thor #1. The hammer was on the moon for some time, between the end of Original Sin and the beginning of Thor #1. That’s why Thor still has both arms in Axis even though one was cleaved off in Thor #1. So in the timeline of things, by the point of Axis #9 the hammer hadn’t yet been recovered.

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