Dr Doom in prison

[robfj]

Here's another conundrum for you in the pre-Secret Invasion era. This one concerns Dr Doom's time in prison after Mighty Avengers #11.

By the way it's not a coincidence that I'm coming up with problems in the same neck of the woods. I've been investigating this area (specifically the time between Civil war and World War Hulk) in preparation for writing about it in the Iron Man Library. (I stumbled into this item by looking up when Doom got out of prison. It's beyond my immediate time of interest, but I like to tie up loose ends.)

I've included the dates from the Calendar (year 24) where they exist. But of course we're at the edge of the then-known world here, so there's some missing. And such maps are notoriously suspect, so we'll find some places where the MCP lists disagree with the Calendar order.

The relevant stretch of MCP entries for Doom is:-
MA 11
SUB-M3 1-FB (May16)
SUB-M3 4-FB (May20)
SUB-M3 6 (May24-25)
PEN:REL 4 (no date but #3 ends just before it Jul7)
FNSM 24 (Aug21)
FF 558-FB
FF 557
FF 558
FF 559
FF 560
FF 561
FF 562
SECINV 1-BTS
SECINV:DR (3 - 7)

The more-extensive Iron Man listing confirms that MA 11 is pre-World War Hulk and SUB-M3 and everything beyond is post-WWH.

In MA 11 Doom is put in prison by SHIELD. The New Defenders break him out of the Raft in FF 558-FB, to take part in FF 557-562. 557 & 558 specifically refer the reader back to MA 11. In 562 the FF return him to the Raft. Then we can either assume that he escapes along with loads of others in SECINV 1-BTS. Or we can assume Norman Osborn frees him because in SECINV:DR NO says the charges have been dropped and he's being extradited back to Latveria.
However in SUB-M3 1-FB to FNSM 24 he's already free.

In SUB-M3 Atlantis gets destroyed, and Subby and the Atlanteans take refuge in Latveria. We assume they take prisoner Nitro with them.
In PEN:REL 4 Penance is sent to Latveria to demand the return of Nitro to stand trial in America.
The 1-panel appearance in FNSM 24 could be almost anywhere in Doom chronology, except when he's in prison.

The easiest option would be if FF 558-FB happened before SUB-M, and the New Defenders allowed Doom to roam free for a while, or he escaped them for a long time. But FF 558 makes it clear that the prison break has only just happened, in a stronger way than just by saying so. So I don't think that will fly.

We could just imagine that he escaped by himself earlier (he is after all Dr Doom), and got caught again.

But I tried the idea of moving SUB-M3 and PEN:REL to before MA 11. Which means in effect to before MA 1 (but after the formation of the MA team in the flashbacks in MA 1-2)

In Subby terms I think it even makes sense. The relevant entries for him are:-
FS:IM (Mar22)
H3 107 (Apr30)
M/CP2 7/3
A:LBM 4
SUB-M3 1-FB (May16)
SUB-M3 2-FB (May18-19)
SUB-M3 3-FB (May19)
SUB-M3 4-FB (May19-20)
SUB-M3 5-FB (May20-21)
SUB-M3 6-FB (May21-24)
SUB-M3 6 (May24-25)
ORDER2 6 (May30)

ORDER2 6 is definitely post-SUB-M3 because he's out for revenge for the destruction of Atlantis.

H3 107 is what defines SUB-M3 as post-WWH because it's definitely set at the start of WWH. But my question is do H3 107, M/CP2 7/3 and A:LBM 4 have to be before SUB-M3?

I would say that Adam: Legend of the Blue Marvel 4 is very unspecific on the topic. You don't see Atlantis, only Namor. I'll admit he doesn't show anger about Atlantis, but he's only talking to an old friend who's been missing for 40 years. And anyway in general the series seems to me to fit almost anywhere between Civil War and Secret Invasion while the MA are active and the IM/MF/YJ triumvirate is still going strong.

The M/CP2 7 contents page suggests that its Subby story is in fact *post*-SUB-M3, because it says he's lost his kingdom. Again we don't see Atlantis. The story just has Namor swimming around mourning for Namorita.

In H3 107 the only bit of Atlantis we see *is* in ruins, and we only meet Namor, Namora and 3 soldiers. Admittedly on p12 (not counting the intro page) SM is worried about bringing Hulk's anger down on Atlantis, but he *could* be referring to Atlantis the nation of people.

Thus I submit that in Sub-Mariner terms it would be feasible to put SUB-M3 between FS:IM and H 107. Putting it early enough could then drag Doom's apps in PEN:REL 4 and FNSM 24 to before MA 1-11, sorting out the prison problem.

However there isn't much time to play in, given the Calendar dates:-
FS:IM (Mar22)
SUB-M3 1-FB
SUB-M3 2-FB
SUB-M3 3-FB
SUB-M3 4-FB
SUB-M3 5-FB
SUB-M3 6-FB
SUB-M3 6
[MA 1 (Mar31)]
H3 107 (Apr30)
M/CP2 7/3
A:LBM 4
ORDER2 6 (May30)

SUB-M3 itself plays out over 10 days in the Calendar, so unless it could be compressed it would have to use Mar22 and Mar31. And we'd still have to fit in a couple of days afterwards for Iron Man for PEN:REL 2-4 and then an extra space for Dr Doom for FNSM 24 (bur he has a bit more room to put it).


Another big question is would it screw anybody else up?

Dr Doom *could* be OK. His earlier movements are:-
FF 543-FB (Feb6)
[FS:IM is Mar22]
X 200/2 (Mar24)
UX 488/2-FB (Mar24)
T3 5-FB (Mar27)
DPOOL/GLI /6 (Mar31) (Same day as MA 1 and just before it) (End of MA 6 is Apr1)

MA 7 ff aren't included in the Calendar but must follow soon after the end of MA 6. So that leaves very little room to insert SUB-M3 1-FB
SUB-M3, PEN:REL and FNSM 24. However Doom's apps could be interspersed with his existing ones.


I suspect the biggest difficulty would be putting FNSM 24 this early. This issue is tied absolutely into Spidey's continuity, and I would imagine re-jiggling the timing of all his apps would be a Herculean task, and probably impossible. So I'll go back on my earlier comments and say that Dr Doom innthat issue must actually be in prison. His 1-panel app has him lounging apparently on his throne. But we could say that his political status meant that he had to have palatial accommodation, with something to lounge on. (Ignoring all along the fact that his political status would mean they couldn't arrest him anyway.)


After that I think the next problem will be finding room in IM's busy schedule, not to mention any continuity clashes for him. He's in SUB-M3 and PEN:REL.

His apps between the end of FS:IM (with Namor) and the beginning of the Venom attack in MA 7 are:-
FS:IM (18 - 23) (Mar22)
FF 544-FB (Mar22)
MSM2 14-BTS (Mar23)
PWJ2 11 (Mar24)
WWH:X 1-FB (Apr30?)
ORDER2 1-FB (Feb22?)
ORDER2 6-FB (Feb27?)
T3 3 (Mar25)
OF 2 (Mar26)
CA 600/4
M/CP2 4/4 (Apr25?)
M/CP2 6/4
M/CP2 10/4
NA 28-FB (Mar28 but we're moving it)
NA 29-FB (4-13 Mar28 but we're moving it, 14-21 Mar29)
NA 30-FB (Mar30)
MA 1 (1) ~ IRRANT 7 (10 - 11) (Mar31)
MA 1 (2 - 3) (Mar31)
IRRANT 7 (12 - 20) (Mar31)
MA 1 (8 - 38) (Mar31)
MA 2 (Mar31)
MA 3 (Mar31)
MA 4 (Mar31)
MA 5 (1 - 21:2) (Mar31)
MA 6 (2:1 - 2:3) (Mar31)
MA 5 (21:3 - 22) (Mar31)
MA 6 (2:4 - 23) (Mar 31-Apr1)
MA 7 (1 - 6)
CW:BDR (8:2 - 65)-BTS (various dates?)
CA5 27-FB (Mar31? before MA 1 (1))
MA 7 (7 - 23)

I'll leave you to worry about the entries not in the Calendar, and where the MCP list obviously clashes with the Calendar (and I'll ignore the ones we've already discussed moving out of this range). That leaves me with:-

FS:IM (18 - 23) (Mar22)
FF 544-FB (Mar22)
MSM2 14-BTS (Mar23)
PWJ2 11 (Mar24)
T3 3 (Mar25)
OF 2 (Mar26)
NA 29-FB (14 - 21) (Mar29)
NA 30-FB (Mar30)
MA 1 (Mar31)
I've also discarded what follows on from MA 1.

From IM's point-of-view we have to transfer in
SUB-M3 1-FB (May16)
SUB-M3 2-FB (May18)
SUB-M3 3-FB (May19)
SUB-M3 5-FB (May21)
SUB-M3 6-FB (May21-23)
SUB-M3 1 (May24)
SUB-M3 2 (May24)
SUB-M3 3 (May24)
SUB-M3 4 (May24)
SUB-M3 5 (May24)
SUB-M3 6 (May24)
and
PEN:REL 2 (Jul6)
PEN:REL 3 (Jul7)
PEN:REL 4

That's a big ask. Without changing the number of days involved, or the time gap in the Calendar, we'd have to do some interleaving. And even then we'd not have enough room.



At this point I have to ask is it worth continuing down this line?

[Paul Bourcier]

Hey, robfj. At this point, don't worry about the Calendar, which is a bit out of, well, date. As you note, it doesn't match MCP chronologies in places, and the MCP tends to be more up-to-date. That's not to say that the MCP took all clues into account though.

Would you be up for posting a chronology that makes best sense for Doom and Namor, noting issues and parenthetical notes about the clues in those issues that support your suggested order (e.g., Doom in/not in prison, Atlantis destroyed, etc., rather than dates from the Calendar)? It may then be easier for folks to comment on the sequence of events.

Thanks!

[Col_Fury]

Here are the two main discussions I recall off the top of my head that came to the current Dr. Doom chronology the MCP has:

DOCTOR DOOM

Dr. Doom between MA 11 and Sec Inv:DR

The short version is, Dr. Doom ends up arrested/in prison twice, once in Mighty Avengers and again in Fantastic Four. The Mighty Avengers story happens some time before Secret Invasion and the Fantastic Four story happens very shortly before Secret Invasion. Of course, as you note, Dr. Doom makes some appearance outside of prison before Secret Invasion.

The current theory is that Doom was released after the Mighty Avengers story, for what it's worth.

[robfj]

Col Fury,

The 1st thread you pointed to is all about what happens to Doom after the time I'm worried about. But the 2nd thread of course does exactly what it says on the tin. I should have searched before I spoke and found it. Then I might have just appended a simpler added suggestion.

I like the Doombot idea. But partially.

As you say, the FF story has to be the real Doom, and it puts him in the Raft before Secret Invasion. The idea is discussed that either the MAv didn't capture him in MA 11 or they let him go. But a crucial point isn't mentioned. In FF 558-FB the New Defenders free Doom from the Raft, and editorial comments in 557 & 558 say that's where he's been since MA 11.

We could use the Doombot just to explain away the awkward SUB-M3, PEN:REL and FNSM appearances. In SUB-M3 he just stands there and talks, In FNSM he just lounges on his throne for 1 panel (but we are led to assume he had a chat with Spidey). And in PEN:REL he can't defeat Penance! (Except we know that everybody gets to beat Doom in their own mag. Even Squirrel Girl!)

You then have to wonder why no-one, especially Iron Man, says anything in PEN:REL about the real Doom being in prison at the time. (No-one but Namor knows about Doom's involvement in SUB-M3, except for the last bit where the Atlanteans take sanctuary in Latveria, which triggers Stark/SHIELD sending Penance in.)

The other thread does ponder a lot about Doom's castle being destroyed several times, and then being restored. I don't think they mention that, as far as I can read it, Doom destroys his castle in MA 11 to try to take out Iron Man. Yet the Doombot, if we accept him, is in a castle at least in PEN:REL.

But we English know that royals always have spare castles dotted about the country. So maybe the Doombot was just using the summer (or winter) palace while the other one was being rebuilt.


However if Paul still wants me to propose an alternative sequence that avoids the need for a Doombot, and ignores the constrictions of the back end of the Calendar, I'm willing to plow on.

[Paul Bourcier]

robfj wrote:

if Paul still wants me to propose an alternative sequence that avoids the need for a Doombot, and ignores the constrictions of the back end of the Calendar, I'm willing to plow on.

robfj, if you'd like to tackle this and propose a chronology that minimizes the necessary number of Doombot appearances but doesn't compromise other placement issues, by all means do!

[robfj]

I *would* like to avoid the Doombot if possible.

But I've decided to approach the problem from a different direction, and get independent verification (or at least independent suggestions) that the relevant Doom apps happen before his MA appearance. I'm going to concentrate on Sub-Mariner's timeline.

Independent of the question of where Dr Doom and Sub-Mariner appearances might fit in the overall timeframe, I first want to consider the order of SM apps in themselves. Specifically
FS:IM
H3 107
M/CP2 7/3
A:LBM 4
SUB-M3 series
ORDER2 6-7

I already mentioned that M/CP2 7's contents page says of the SM story (/3) that SM has recently lost his kingdom, so I'd place it after SUB-M3. As the story itself consists of SM swimming around (not in Atlantis) mourning Namorita and fighting a monster, it can't mess up anybody else's continuity to move it.

I also mentioned that the bit of Atlantis we see in H3 107 is in ruins, and Amadeus Cho and friends are only met by Namor, Namora and some soldiers. This would fit with this too being after SUB-M3, with Atlantis destroyed and SM having sent away all the Atlanteans except the army (see SUB-M3 6). Although SUB-M3 6 saw SM and the army decamping to Latveria, we will also see Atlantis destroyed but SM and soldiers underwater elsewhere in A/INV 3-4.

I've had a closer look at Adam: Legend of the Blue Marvel 4. BM spends p9-15 in his old undersea base. Old friend SM comes to see him (p12-15). p14.3 BM calls SM ruler of Atlantis, and SM doesn't disagree. p15.1 SM refers to humans attacking Atlantis and his revenge on New York. This clearly refers to an older tale from the Golden Age or to Fantastic Four Annual 1. And not to SUB-M3 and the revenge he takes by attacking San Francisco in ORDER2 6-7. So I've now changed my mind about this issue and I would leave it before SUB-M3.

So my revised proposed sequence for Sub-Mariner is now:-
FS:IM
A:LBM 4
SUB-M3 series
H3 107
M/CP2 7/3
ORDER2 6-7
(I have no particular preference as to exactly when after SUB-M3 M/CP2 7/3 is placed. I just left it following H3 107.)

2 of Namor's 4 ankle-wings are torn off by Venom in SUB-M3. You'd think that this might provide a clue to which of his apps should immediately follow this series. I don't know that any issue ever claims that they've regrown, but I can't find any other issue outside of SUB-M3 that shows him with missing wings.

The next issues in MCP after ORDER2 6-7 are
A/INV 3
A/INV 4
H4 5
H4 6
NA:ILLUM2 5

The wings are all 4 damningly visible in H3 107 and M/CP2 7/3, and also in the later H4 5-6 and NA:ILLUM2 5. Some issues don't show his ankles (maybe deliberately so as not to declare where they fit around SUB-M3?). This is so in A:LMB 4 and ORDER2 6-7. A/INV has a foot in both camps. The wings are seen (in 1 panel) in #3, but #4 goes to some lengths to avoid showing them, including in 1 panel obscuring them with a cloud of sea-bed silt. The upshot seems to be that the wings grew back very quickly, and we can't use them to order SM's apps. (And his uniform seems pretty constant across this period.)

Note that my analysis moves SUB-M3 (and A:LBM) to before World War Hulk (which includes H3 107).

Apart from that, many elements of both SUB-M3 and A:LBM would agree with them being set pretty much anywhere between Civil War and Secret Invasion. They refer generically to Tony Stark being head of SHIELD. A:LBM has the Mighty Avengers (significantly including Ares who is the only member who wasn't part of Iron Man's gang anyway), so both series must be after their formation. Norman Osborn sends Venom after SM in SUB-M3. But NO was recruiting his version of Thunderbolts during CW (according to the placement of TB 110 (1 - 5)-FB in NO's MCP list), and Venom was working in that villain team for the 2nd half of CW. The SUB-M apps of Prof X, Wolverine and guardian Sentinels at the X-school don't tell us much (those Sentinels will be around until Uncanny X-Men 493, well after WWH).

1 clue might have been Wonder Man's costume. In MA 7 Wasp talks him out of wearing his red safari jacket, and he's seen in the following issues in a version of his more usual uniform. However he did protest that the safari jacket was his favourite outfit, which may be why he will wear it again in A/INV. So the fact that he wears both costumes in A:LBM is inconclusive. In fact it's actually confusing. In A:LBM 1 p1-5 he's not got the jacket. In #5 he wears it in p3-4, not in p5-11, and puts it back on again for p21-25. Looking back at his apps after Civil War (where he wore a uniform), we see him in the jacket in CM7 1-FB, FS:A, CA5 26, A:I 8-FB, NA 28-30-FB and MA 1-6. But he's in costume in MSM2 12, and in MSM2 13-14 he definitely wears the jacket *over* the uniform.

This could explain his apps in A:LBM. In the 2 scenes with the jacket he's standing around. On the scenes without the jacket he's fighting. This suggests to me that he's wearing the jacket over the costume again, and takes it off for battle (after all, it *is* his favourite). This could mean that in the scene with Wasp in MA 7 where he turns down all her ideas for a new uniform and just appears in his old one, he doesn't go and change from jacket to costume, he just takes his jacket off. (But also note that the uniforms in CW, MSM2 and MA 7 onwards are 3 different variations on the same basic design.)

So WM's togs aren't a guide to placing A:LBM and SUB-M3.

So far I've produced some evidence that SUB-M3 occurs before WWH, with nothing apparently to deny it. But there is also nothing to say when before WWH it happens. However there *is* something in A:LBM that may suggest that *it* happens before MA 7-12, and hence before the non-fb parts of MA 1-6. There is 1 person significantly absent from the apps of MAv in A:LBM 1 and 5 - Spider-Woman. (Although I have to admit that Black Widow isn't in #5 either.) This could suggest she hasn't joined them yet.

And if A:LBM is before MA 1 then that removes a barrier for SUB-M being that early too.

There may be a problem here in that Reed and Sue Richards are both in A:LBM and SUB-M3. If they are supposed to be back from their 2nd honeymoon on Titan, then these apps must happen after FF 547-550, which in turn follow NW4 2 in the alternative FF (Human Torch/Thing/Black Panther/Storm) sequence. But the MCP list for Iron Man shows NW4 1-6 follow MA 1-11 (confirmed by the lists for various MAv members). But you've already had Reed pop back for MA 6. So I claim precedent for having both of them also coming back earlier. Sue misses the kids, and is seen with them in SUB-M3 4-FB. Keeping A:LBM and SUB-M3 together allows us to make these all 1 MF/IW visit.

I can also claim that the absence of the alternative FF in the above could mean that they are still away in BP4 28-34. These adventures in space and alternative timelines, courtesy of the tricksy King Solomon's Frogs, could also involve time jumping so they needn't get back straight after they left. The travellers only have to return in time for DPOOL/GLI, which also includes a Dr Doom app before his MA 9-11 bit. Which *would* place these MF/IW apps before MA 1-11. (Somewhat undercutting my argument is that MF's app in MA 6 follows a statement that the Baxter Building was empty in MA 5. But this *too* can't mean that the alt-FF are still away, because there'd be a tight squeeze to fit their return and DPOOL/GLI in between MA 6 and 7 (where Doom gets a BTS because he's supposedly timetravelling to Morgan Le Fey while MA 7-8 happen).)

Extending the Frog trip could also give MF/IW another reason to have popped back. Maybe the Baxter Building sent out an alarm because the alt-FF had been absent for a long time.

As an aside independent of all the above, you may wish to move FF 546 p8-11 much later to be with FF 547. In it MF&IW are alerted to the space object they investigate in the following issues. The rest of FF 546 (p1-7, 12-22) occurs before the alt-FF even *leave* on their Frog trip.


So in the end my case for moving SUB-M3 before MA 1 is:-
It enables us to avoid having to come up with an explanation (Doombot or otherwise) for Doom appearing in SUB-M3 after his capture in MA 11.
It has SUB-M3 before H3 107 in WWH.
Putting A:LBM before MA 1 explains why SW isn't in the MAv.
Keeping A:LBM and SUB-M3 together minimises the number of MF/IW return visits from Titan.
Putting these before the alt-FF get back explains why only MF/IW are around.

Everything else is just explanations why other things don't contradict the assertion.


However, to avoid Doombotism, I've still got to check whether moving the Penance: Relentless series causes problems, especially with Thunderbolts. But I'll leave that until after Christmas.

[robfj]

This took longer than I expected. New Year got in the way as well as Christmas.

If we want to avoid apps of a Doombot while Dr Doom's in prison, we've got to also move the Penance: Relentless series back to before MA 11.

MCP has Penance's appearances as follows (I have included a non-Pen Venom app - there are no other extra TB-member apps here):-
CW:I
DPOOL/GLI /4
(MA 1-11 incl MAv's fight with Dr Doom and his arrest.)
NO4 2-3
TB 110-112
WWH:ADAMCON 1-2
TB:DM
TB 113-115
TB:BP (With Venom in SUB-M3 inside, which includes Nitro being taken to Latveria.)
PEN:REL 1-5 Pen goes to get Nitro from Dr Doom in Latveria.
TB 116-121
(Note that there is a 3-week gap between p7 and 8 of TB:BP. MCP and the thread mentioned below both put SUB-M3 in that gap (and the thread tries putting in a lot more).)

This immediately shows that I've got to change something. For PEN:REL to be before MA 11 it must also be before World War Hulk, and hence before WWH:ADAMCON. What remains is to decide how much needs changing, and how to cope with any adverse side-effects.

The 1st question of course is whether PEN:REL itself holds any clues as to its position. PEN:REL 1 establishes the context. Pen's psychiatrist says he's started talking to Norman Osborn, and has moved from a bare room to a normal one. In 113 p6-8 he's talking with NO, but NO is trying to get him to move out of his bare room. Thus PEN:REL is set after 113, after WWH, after MA 11 - and so Dr Doom is in prison!

But things needn't be that simple.



The position of PEN:REL is discussed within the 'Thunderbolts, prior to Secret Invasion' thread. The thread even starts by saying that PEN:REL has to be before Doom is arrested in MA 11. But this is forgotten about in the rest of the thread. The above link between PEN:REL 1 and TB 113 isn't mentioned, but then both suggestions there for the placement of PEN:REL have it later than the relevant pages of 113 anyway.

The thread was more concerned about fitting things around the Caged Angels story in TB 116-121. In 114-115 Bullseye is paralysed and Moonstone is seriously injured. They remain out of action in 116-121, and Songbird takes over from Moonstone as field leader. Also in 115 Penance has a breakdown and injures himself. He is taken off duty and given psychiatric sessions in the following storyline.

Director Somebody stated the case clearly. MS has an arm in a cast at the start of 116, and the issue clearly says that she's not been in the field since 115. The cast will come off soon, but she'll still need time to fully recover. Pen is also not a field agent after 115 until after 121.

There are many Thunderbolts apps published around this time. Many of them feature MS and Pen but not Bu. The temptation is to put them during Bu's unavailability. But Bu is a secret member of the team, used sparingly and with precautions to make sure he's not seen by the public. So missions without him can be placed anywhere.

However most of these missions outside the main title (including various Thunderbolts TP's) have MS as field leader. And even after MS recovers, Songbird will blackmail Norman Osborn into letting her continue as field leader (through Secret Invasion). After SECINV SB will be thrown off the team, but most of the apps that the thread is trying to fit together feature SB as well as MS. The inescapable logic is that all such apps should be set before 114. (Somebody also suggests that there are lots of available gaps in 112 and 113.)

BobMM took control of the thread and evolved a proposed timeline for the Thunderbolts up to Secret Invasion. His final version did remove everything from between 115 and 116 except the SUB-M3 mini. This only involved Venom, and so didn't break the rules.

However BobMM had reasons for still wanting a couple of issues within MS's benching. He shoehorned them into a gap in the middle of 116, so that he could claim they were after she lost the cast and before Songbird was seen to replace her as field leader in the latter part. Pen was active in these inserted issues too.

Despite BobMM's justification these issues still broke Somebody's rules. I only mention them to indicate that there are more problems with TB continuity than PEN:REL. And the current MCP sequence also has things inside the forbidden zone. But they are not exactly the same as BobMM's list.

The main point made about PEN:REL in that thread was that Pen lacks confidence in 110-115 and has a breakdown, whereas in PEN:REL he's in control. So BobMM wanted to put the mini as late as possible to allow time for Pen to get his act together.

Initially he put PEN:REL last of a bunch of things between 115 and 116. He made Pen's actions in PEN:REL the reason for his grounding and psych eval in 116-121.

After Somebody weighed in BobMM transferred PEN:REL p1-17 to within 113 (but after p6-8), and the rest of the mini-series to after 121. But MCP has the whole mini back between 115 and 116.

The team appear in PEN:REL 1 and 3. In both issues MS is stated to be field leader and acts like it. So using the above analysis PEN:REL should all happen before 114. (However both BobMM and MCP differently decide to include some problem issues in the forbidden zones.)



The thread did come up with lots of factors influencing the sequence of issues, and Somebody alerted us to the fact that there were potential gaps within issues for inserting others (1 of which has been used by MCP, but only partially). I'm not going to try to define a sequence for the whole of post-Civil War pre-Secret Invasion Thunderbolts, but I need to discuss as far as 116 to provide a background for placing PEN:REL.

As mentioned above Somebody suggested there were potential gaps within 113. So the minimal change to get PEN:REL before WWH:ADAMCON would be to find such a gap and move PEN:REL and WWH:ADAMCON into it with PEN:REL 1st (and MA 1-11 in between to keep Dr Doom out of prison). Ie:-
CW:I
DPOOL/GLI /4
NO4 2-3
TB 110-112
TB:DM
TB 113a (Incl p6-8 NO tries to persuade Pen to swap his bare cell for better accommodation.)
PEN:REL 1 Pen has moved from a bare room to a normal one.
PEN:REL 2-5 Pen goes to get Nitro from Dr Doom in Latveria.
(MA 1-11 incl MAv's fight with Dr Doom and his arrest.)
WWH:ADAMCON 1-2 Set after World War Hulk.
TB 113b-115
TB:BP (With Venom in SUB-M3 inside, which includes Nitro being taken to Latveria.)
TB 116-121
(Of course I'd also have to move SUB-M3 to before PEN:REL, but that would be trivial.)



However I believe closer examination shows that the gaps in 113 don't really exist (but Somebody's gaps in 112 still can do). Somebody also indirectly indicated by omission that there can't be any appreciable gap between the end of 112 (where Norman Osborn tells his superiors that he'll send the team after Steel Spider in Phoenix within 24 hours) and 113 which builds up to the mission (and includes some other characters saying they're going to Phoenix the next day too), and then 114-115 where they all clash. Unfortunately this also rules out the places within 113 which Somebody *did* put forward as possible gaps for insertions.

To be more specific about 112:- p22 is the NO bit above. The Steel Spider app in p18-21 will trigger American Eagle into action in 113. The intro apps of AE and Sepulchre in p14-17 could happen anytime (the job interview Sep is going to here isn't the job interview in Phoenix she is offered in 113), but there's no reason to separate them from what follows. (The Calendar and MCP do in fact split 112 between p13 and 14, for reasons I'll mention later which have nothing to do with PEN:REL.)

But I can't put PEN:REL within 112 because I need it after 113 p6-8. So I'm forced to move it (and MA 1-11 and WWH:ADAMCON) to after 115. If I put them both after TB:BP (Breaking Point) then I've got SUB-M3 in the right place too. (Note that I'm not really moving MA 1-11 and WWH by doing this. I'm just moving TB apps relative to them - apps which don't really have much close connection with the larger Marvel universe. Apart from coming in after it's all over in ADAMCON the Thunderbolts never mention WWH, and I don't believe WWH ever mentions them. I guess NO was keeping his troops well out of it.)

So the alternative plan is:-
CW:I
DPOOL/GLI /4
NO4 2-3
TB 110-112
TB:DM
TB 113-115
TB:BP (With Venom in SUB-M3 inside, which includes Nitro being taken to Latveria.)
PEN:REL 1-5
(MA 1-11)
WWH:ADAMCON 1-2
TB 116-121
(I've left TB:DM where MCP has it between 112 and 113, where I've just said there is no gap. That's part of the non-PEN:REL stuff I'll deal with later.)



Unfortunately we're not finished yet, because there's a problem having things (including TB:BP) between 115 and 116.

115 ends with Bullseye paralysed, Moonstone injured in the arm, and Penance has had a breakdown. Bu and MS stay in that state throughout 116-121 (Caged Angels), and Pen is benched under psych evaluation. So it's difficult to see where to put issues with MS and Pen on active duty (luckily Bu is often not included, as mentioned before). Also Songbird takes over from MS as field leader in Caged Angels, and the side issues tend to show MS as the leader.

In the thread BobMM points out that TB:BP has to go after 115 because it says Bu's still injured (p17), and later he adds that it mentions (p14) Bu killing his guards in 115. I can add to this that MS reminds Swordsman (p6-7) about the plan to kill SB (from 113). But MS is field leader in BP, and Pen is in the team. BobMM resolves the dilemma (partially) by splitting 116 in 2 parts (p1-13 (again) and 14-22) because SB isn't actually seen as field leader until p14. And in the earlier part MS says the cast will soon come off her arm - BobMM assumes that happens before TB:BP and MS is wearing bandages under her costume in TB:BP.

This doesn't explain everything.

Why is MS field leader for TB:BP but not even *on* missions for the rest of Caged Angels? In 116 Norman Osborn says he wants MS back in action as soon as possible because he doesn't want SB leading a team that is fellow old Thunderbolts apart from Venom. I suggest MS volunteers to lead as soon as her cast is off, but the medics find that TB:BP aggravates her injury. She definitely doesn't have her cast in 117, and I don't see it in 118, but it's there in 119-121. Maybe she had to put the cast on again to repair the renewed damage.

Why is Pen on the team in TB:BP? The CSA is sending in Doc Samson to evaluate Pen, but he doesn't arrive until 117. In 116 NO and PS aren't happy about this and seize on the local medics opinion that Pen is stable, although he turns out to be on a hair trigger. But on p13 MS persuades NO this makes him useful. I would guess NO sends Pen on the mission to prove him an asset and head off DocS. But from 117 Samson takes over Pen's case.

Given that TB:BP has opened the gate, I'm going to put PEN:REL and WWH:ADAMCON in there too. Bu isn't in either of them, and the presence of MS and Pen is as above. These issues can even be used to explain why Pen isn't in the team in the 2nd half of 116. Pen disobeyed orders (to say the least) in both PEN:REL and WWH:ADAMCON, so NO probably got fed up with him.

I'm also going to move something else in - NO4 2-3. These issues live between MA 11 and WWH, and so for my purposes must follow PEN:REL. Luckily they too don't include Bu.

That puts a lot of stuff and time in between the CSA saying they're going to send DocS in 116 (1-13) and him arriving in 117. I would guess that NO tried some politicking to keep him out. And WWH will have got in the way too.

So the next phase of the transition is:-
CW:I
DPOOL/GLI /4
TB 110-112
TB:DM
TB 113-115 MS asks SM to agree to kill SB. Bu kills his guards. Ends with Bu paralysed, MS injured in the arm, and Pen has had breakdown.
TB 116 (1-13) Bu out of action.
Pen benched awaiting a psych eval. NO not happy about letting DocS into his little kingdom.
MS has a cast which will soon be removed but she'll need more recovery time. NO says he wants her back as field leader asap.
TB:BP (With Venom in SUB-M3 inside)
Says Bu's still injured and mentions the dead guards. MS reminds SM about the plan to kill SB.
MS is active field leader - assume cast has been replaced by hidden bandages.
Pen on the team - assume NO trying to prove he's fit for duty.
PEN:REL 1-5 MS still leader. Pen still active, but he goes AWOL to pursue Nitro.
(MA 1-11)
NO4 2-3 MS still leader, Pen still active. Must lie between MA 11 and WWH.
WWH:ADAMCON 1-2 MS still leader. Pen still active, but he makes an unauthorised deal with Damage Control.
TB 116 (14-22) SB leads the reduced team. Assume MS's injuries have become aggravated by her activities. Assume Pen benched again because of his actions in PEN:REL and ADAMCON.
TB 117-118 MS doesn't have a cast. Pen starts his psych eval with DocS.
TB 117-121 MS has a cast again. Assume her aggravated injuries were worse than thought.
At the end Bu recovers and Pen is signed off fit for duty. (But MS, SM and V are damaged.)



But I'm not finished yet! Now I'll tidy up some things not directly related to PEN:REL.

1st I'll clarify the placement of SUB-M3. As the MCP seq for Venom has it, (at least his part of) SUB-M3 happens between TB:BP p7 and 8 where there is a 3 week gap.

TB:DM (Desperate Measures) is placed between 112 and 113 because the Faith In Monsters TP says it must happen before 113. This is because 113 leads directly into 114-115 where Bullseye gets paralysed. A hint (accidental or deliberate) that we've got TB:DM in approximately the right place is that Swordsman's sword gets broken in 111 and he's still bothering NO about a replacement in 113. And in TB:DM SM doesn't use his sword.

But the TP doesn't actually *print* DM in that place (it puts it after 115 when it was published). The TP only says TB:DM must be *before* 113 - it doesn't actually say when. We've already established there's no room between 112 and 113 (and none within 113 either). That leaves Somebody's options within 112. The Calendar splits the issue into p1-13 and 14-22. It only puts them on adjacent days, but I think it's the best place to put a much larger gap.

The debriefing in p1-7 follows on from the mission in 110-111. It is arguable where p8-13 belong. They are mostly NO chatting with V and Bu, but they do include NO choosing the next target from a list on p8. I suspect this is *supposed* to be him picking Steel Spider for 113-115. However he was given the list in 111, and there he got excited about going after *Scarlet* Spider - Steel Spider wasn't on the list. The secretary said in 111 that the CSA were not even sure Scarlet Spider existed (there wasn't a character with that name active at that time, until the Initiative launched its trio of them).

Note that NO's MCP sequence agrees with me. It places TB:DM between 112 p13 and 14. But the lists for other Thunderbolts members disagree and say between 112 and 113. (As a side-note NO and SB list the issue as TB:DM 1, the rest as TB:DM - so they show up as separate entries in the comic search.) (While I'm at it I noticed that the later A/INV 1 has an entry for the Venom symbiote but not for V (Mac Gargan).)

Also, BobMM justified putting TB:DM in the middle of 113 because he saw NO's scenes with his secretary (p3) and Bullseye (p6-8) as being replays of similar scenes early in 113. However he was mistaken, and the scenes in question are in *112* (p8 for the secretary and p13 for Bu). Applying this logic to 112 would be another vote for placing 112 p8-13 with p1-7 and before the bulk of TB:DM, but now with some overlap. However TB:DM concerns the team going after Americop, and refers back to another mission to bring in Gorilla Girl, neither of whom are on the list in 111-112. So I think the similarities are a coincidence. In 111 the secretary indicates that the CSA keep sending Norman lists, and the chats with Bu are very different.

So I think that there's a lot going on between 112 p13 and 14. The team may go after someone from the 111-112 list, then go after Gorilla Girl, then Americop.

4th amended layout:-
CW:I
DPOOL/GLI /4
TB 110-112 (1-13) SM's sword gets broken.
TB:DM SM doesn't use a sword. Bu and Pen in action against Americop.
TB 112 (14-20)-115 Team go after Steel Spider. SM nags about a replacement sword, and gets 1. BU gets paralysed until 121.
TB 116 (1-13)
TB:BP (1-7) Team (without Bu) capture Brother Nature.
(Venom within SUB-M3 1-5 in a 3 week gap in BP.)
TB:BP (8-22) SB meets her mother. Team (without Bu) vs Jury.
PEN:REL 1-5
(MA 1-11)
NO4 2-3
WWH:ADAMCON 1-2
TB 116 (14-22)-121



Now for my last trick I'm going to take things a step further. Having moved all of TB 110-116 (1-13) plus TB:DM, TB:BP and PEN:REL to before MA 1-11 it remains to wonder whereabouts they will all fit. I believe TB 110-112 (1-13) contain some clues as to where the sequence starts.

110 has an interesting set of TV reports in p10-11.1. 10.1-10.3 just generally talk about Tony Stark being head of SHIELD, and the hunt for unregistered heroes. But 10.5 has NO giving a press conference to explain his new position as head of Thunderbolts. And 10.4 has a stock shot of an old version of the team (even Genis-Vell/Photon is included). These suggest that p10 happens even before their CW:I appearance. So I'm going to have to extend the sequence backwards.

The Calendar allows a gap between p10 and 11. The above suggestion may make this gap even bigger. The TV report in p11.1 says the Avengers are using a new flying craft. This must be the Mighty Avengers, and indicates that the public already knows of their existence. The news report then segues into the Bolts heading out after JF. And the 'advert' for Thunderbolts action figures on p17 shows that the public are now well aware of this team.

112 has TV stuff too. p9 has a talent show recruiting drive for new members. But it claims that Captain America and Falcon are still out there and unregistered. This would mean that the TV comment in p10.2 that the registration debate "isn't just a disagreement between Captain America and Iron Man" doesn't just indicate soon after CW but actually before Cap's assassination.

We're going to have to pick and choose what to believe here, if only because of the solid sequence Cap's assassination -> CW:I -> Mighty Av. But in fact there couldn't be any time after CW where Cap is free, so we can ignore that bit of the 112 p9 comment. But if we take the Falcon part seriously it puts 112 p9 before Falcon registers in order to attend Cap's funeral in FS:IM. We still want p11.1 after CW:I (and the creation of MAv).

That leaves TB:DM, TB 112 (14-22)-116 (1-13), TB:BP between FS:IM and PEN:REL, plus DPOOL/GLI /4 to slip in somewhere in the mix.

In DPOOL/GLI /4 Squirrel Girl breaks into TB HQ to see Pen. She finds him in his bare cell, wearing his pain suit and mask. I have placed this within a progressive sequence:-
WWH:ADAMCON 2-FB Pen wanders the world disguised in a raincoat but wearing the suit and mask.
DPOOL/GLI /4 He's wearing the suit and mask in his bare cell.
TB 113 p6-8 He's in his bare cell but no longer wearing the suit and mask.
PEN:REL 1 He's moved to a normal room.

So the final (expanded) layout is:-
TB 110-FB (1-5) NO recruits Bullseye.
CW:FL 10/2 Speedball becomes Penance.
WWH:ADAMCON 2-FB Speedball in his Penance suit and mask meets fellow Damage Control intern. (I think it's before he joins TB.)
TB 110-FB (18-20) NO recruits Moonstone.
TB 111-FB (1-2) NO recruits Songbird.
TB 109 (21-22) Old team meet new team members (BTS but presumably incl Pen).
TB 110 (6-9) Introduces Jack Flag to the reader.
TB 110 (10) TV reports about NO's new Thunderbolts.
CW:I Team capture Hurricane. (This isn't their 1st outing.)
(MA 1-2-FB Creation of Mighty Avengers.)
TB 110 (11-16) Team set off after JF. Incl mention of MAv.
TB 110 (17) Action figures ad.
TB 110 (21-22) JF prepares to face the team.
TB 111 Team vs JF, who breaks SM's sword.
TB 112 (1-13) Debriefing and TV stuff, incl claim that Falcon is unregistered.
(FS:IM Funeral of CA, for which Falcon registers.)
DPOOL/GLI /4 Squirrel Girl breaks into TB HQ to see Pen in suit and mask in his bare cell.
She tries to reduce his guilt by telling him Nitro's power was upgraded before Stamford. But Pen doesn't want to lose the guilt.
TB:DM (1-2) NO complains about Pen's poor showing in the (undocumented) Gorilla Girl mission.
TB:DM (3) NO picks a target from a list - Americop.
TB:DM (4-5) Americop in action.
TB:DM (6-8) NO plans with Bu about using Pen to take down Americop.
TB:DM (9-22) Thunderbolts vs Americop. SM doesn't use a sword
TB 112 (14-21) Sepulchre, American Eagle and Steel Spider are introduced to the reader.
TB 112 (22) NO says the team will take Steel Spider next.
TB 113 Build up to the mission, getting all the players in position, including:-
p6-8 NO tries to persuade Pen (in his bare cell but not in suit) to upgrade to better accommodation.
p9-10 SM nags NO for his replacement sword.
p11-13 MS asks SM to agree to kill SB.
TB 114-115 Thunderbolts vs SS, AE and Sep. SM has a sword.
Bu gets paralysed, MS gets injured in the arm, Pen has a breakdown.
TB 116 (1-13) BU paralysed until 121. MS in temp cast. Pen awaiting psych eval.
But it seems NO puts MS back in charge after her cast is removed.
And he sends Pen into action too.
TB:BP (1-7) Team (without Bu) capture Brother Nature.
(Venom within SUB-M3 1-5. This ends with Namor taking Nitro to Dr Doom.)
TB:BP (8-22) Team (without Bu) vs Jury.
PEN:REL 1 Pen has moved from a bare room to a normal one.
Pen goes AWOL.
PEN:REL 2-5 Pen invades Latveria and makes Dr Doom give him Nitro.
(MA 1-11 incl MAv's fight with Dr Doom and his arrest.)
NO4 2-3 MS still leader, Pen still active. Must lie between MA 11 and WWH.
WWH:ADAMCON 1-2 MS still leader. Pen still active.
Assume MS's injury relapses due to going back in action too early.
And Pen gets taken off duty again, either because he's insubordinate or to free him for Doc Samson.
TB 116 (14-22)-121 SB leads a team without Bu/Ms/Pen. DocS psychoanalyses Pen. Plus other stuff.
(Note that considerations of the rest of the pre-SECINV TB run might move some other stuff before 116 p14, but I'm not going to deal with that here.)



The above looks complicated. I can collapse it into a simpler form to compare with the original.

Original:-
CW:I
(MA 1-2-FB)
(FS:IM)
DPOOL/GLI /4
(MA 1-11)
NO4 2-3
TB 110-112
WWH:ADAMCON 1-2
TB:DM
TB 113-115
TB:BP (with Venom in SUB-M3 inside)
PEN:REL 1-5
TB 116-121

New:-
TB 110 (6-10)
CW:I
(MA 1-2-FB)
TB 110 (11-22)-112 (1-13)
(FS:IM)
DPOOL/GLI /4
TB:DM
TB 112 (14-22)-115
TB 116 (1-13)
TB:BP (with Venom in SUB-M3 inside)
PEN:REL 1-5
(MA 1-11)
NO4 2-3
WWH:ADAMCON 1-2
TB 116 (14-22)-121

Seen this way the changes aren't large. TB:DM has been shifted slightly into an actual gap within 112, which MCP already agreed with for NO. TB:BP and PEN:REL have similarly been moved slightly into a gap within 116. The rest of the change is moving these and the TB issues back relative to the 'external' issues CW:I, DPOOL/GLI, NO4 and WWH:ADAMCON which have stronger ties with the rest of the Marvel U (and therefore retain their own sequence, including with MA 1-2-FB, FS:IM and MA 1-11).

Most of the extra chars in the TB issues and TP's are minor chars whose previous and next apps are far enough away that all this has no effect. The effects on Dr Doom and Sub-Mariner's sequences is deliberate. Iron Man appears in SUB-M3 and PEN:REL so his seq will change. But his apps there are just generic Director of SHIELD stuff, so the moves won't affect anything. And I don't see any other IM apps referencing these.

I'll come back later with detailed changes to IM and others. The only place I expect trouble is with the Fantastic Four. But I'll have a suggestion there!

[Paul Bourcier]

Thanks, robfj. Very thorough. We look forward to the next post!

If you could spell out character names rather than use abbreviations and acronyms, that'd be helpful.

[robfj]

This is another post without the detailed changes for individual characters, because while compiling them I had to resolve a couple of issues:- Where does DPOOL/GLI fit within other chronologies? And what's happening with the Fantastic Four?

But 1st an addendum to my previous post concerning a couple of details I've noticed about the early Thunderbolts issues.


In the Faith In Monsters TP it specifically says that the Thunderbolts part of Civil War: Initiative happens before TB 110. But I'll take that as meaning before their actual appearance in that issue which is not before p11. So I'll leave p1-10 before CW:I because it consists of a flashback (1-5), the Jack Flag bit (6-9) and the TV news about the new Norman Osborn team (10).

Also Jack's conversation with his girlfriend indicates that Captain America's still alive, so that puts it not only before CW:I but before the CA5 25 assassination.

This doesn't change my sequence but adds CA5 25 as another bracketed time marker:-
TB 110 (6-10)
(CA5 25)
CW:I
(MA 1-2-FB)
TB 110 (11-22)-112 (1-13)
(FS:IM)
DPOOL/GLI /4
TB:DM
TB 112 (14-22)-115
TB 116 (1-13)
TB:BP (1-7)
(Venom in SUB-M3)
TB:BP (8-22)
PEN:REL 1-5
(MA 1-11)
NO4 2-3
WWH:ADAMCON 1-2
TB 116 (14-22)-121

Before leaving this I'll mention that the 110-111 story was obviously written to imply that Jack Flag's action in 110 (6-9) was what brought the Thunderbolts down on him. So separating it in time from the rest of 110 could be seen as a problem. But as we see in 111 Osborn gets his lists of targets from the CSA, and it would take some time for a report of his activity to filter up the bureaucracy and then down to Thunderbolts.


The 2nd thing concerns the talent contest to find new Thunderbolts in TB 112 p9. I had a problem with its claim that Captain America and Falcon were at large and unregistered. Looking at it again I realise that Stan Lee is only claiming that Cap and Falc are waiting in the testing ground as opponents for the would-be Thunderbolts. These are obviously not the real Cap and Falc.

However I can still claim that my analysis of when this broadcast takes place still holds water. It should still be before the real Falcon registers before Cap's funeral. But now we can also accept Cap being included - it's turned into a question of good taste rather than 1 of fact.

The good taste question ought to mean that it's before Cap's assassination. But this would put it before CW:I (contrary to the statement in the TP), and before the Mighty Avengers are formed (contrary to their mention in another news report in 110 p11.1). So I'm forced to leave 112 (1-13) where I have it before his funeral.

This suggests that the producers of the Thunderbolts reality show are insensitive. Who'da thunk it? (I could take this further and add ignorance to their sins, which would allow 110-112 to happen *after* Falcon registers. But I don't want to.)


That bit wound up with no change to the sequence. But I had a closer think about where DPOOL/GLI fitted into the general timeline, explained below. I needed to have it far enough in advance of MA 1-11 to fit PEN:REL etc in between. I think my analysis below satisfies this, but O only need DPOOL/GLI to happen before TB 113, so as a sweetener I can move it to after TB:DM:-
TB 110 (6-10)
(CA5 25)
CW:I
(MA 1-2-FB)
TB 110 (11-22)-112 (1-13)
(FS:IM)
TB:DM
DPOOL/GLI /4
TB 112 (14-22)-115
TB 116 (1-13)
TB:BP (1-7)
(Venom in SUB-M3)
TB:BP (8-22)
PEN:REL 1-5
(MA 1-11)
NO4 2-3
WWH:ADAMCON 1-2
TB 116 (14-22)-121


There's 1 last little thing I'll mention before getting on to the main 2 subjects of this post, because it will be relevant for the Fantastic Four section. When moving SUB-M3 back to before MA 1-11 I also brought back the Adam: Legend of Blue Marvel mini-series which I demonstrated should precede it. I'll now include that within the TB:BP 3-week gap to help fill it.

TB 110 (6-10)
(CA5 25)
CW:I
(MA 1-2-FB)
TB 110 (11-22)-112 (1-13)
(FS:IM)
TB:DM
DPOOL/GLI /4
TB 112 (14-22)-115
TB 116 (1-13)
TB:BP (1-7)
(A:LBM 1-5)
(Venom in part of SUB-M3 1-5)
TB:BP (8-22)
PEN:REL 1-5
(MA 1-11)
NO4 2-3
WWH:ADAMCON 1-2
TB 116 (14-22)-121



The DPOOL/GLI question:-

The Calendar and the MCP lists disagree about CDPOOL's position in the history of Deadpool. The Calendar has DPOOL/GLI between CDPOOL 36 and 37, but MCP puts it between CDPOOL 42 and 43. There is no hint in any issue as to whether either of these is correct. The Great Lakes Initiative are last seen in CDPOOL 30, but that would fit either option.

The Calendar presents me with another problem in that it has DPOOL/GLI immediately before MA 1. But I need to put lots of Thunderbolts stuff in between them. And if it was moved later in the CDPOOL sequence then the Calendar would have it after MA 1-11 which would wreck my scheme. However Paul has already said that the leading edge of the Calendar isn't as good a guide as the rest because so many relevant issues hadn't been published at the time it was completed.

So I thought I'd look for something else in MCP that already has lots of issues between DPOOL/GLI and MA 1.


The itinerary of the temporary Fantastic Four (Human Torch/Thing/Black Panther/Storm) is useful. They return from space/alternate universes in BP4 34. Then they appear in DPOOL/GLI /1 (all parts of DPOOL/GLI happen in quick succession). After that Storm goes to UX 487-491 (with a HT/Th cameo in UX 489). Then they all gather together for CDPOOL 45-46.

If I add to that a Cable crossover between CDPOOL 40-42 and X 198-200, and Beast appearing in X 200-204 and UX 487 (but with a lot in between), I can build a skeleton timeline:-
BP4 34 and CDPOOL 30 both precede the rest
DPOOL/GLI /1
CDPOOL 40-42 ~ X 198-200 (Cable crossover)
X 200-204 (Beast)
UX 487-491 (Storm)
CDPOOL 45-46 (alt-FF)


Looking elsewhere we can see that Dr Strange has:-
FS:IM
NX2 41
NX2 42-BTS
UX 491/2
XF3 24/2
NA 28-FB (which the split of New Avengers flashbacks changes to NA 29 (7.6-21)-FB)

Coincidentally Beast in more detail has:-
X 200-204
NX2 37-39
NX2 41 (with Dr Strange)
UX 486
X:ES
NX2 42 (with Dr Strange)
X 200/2 followed by lots of other /2's in the Endangered Species story, ending with
UX 491/2 (with Dr Strange)
XF3 24/2 (with Dr Strange)
X 204/2
UX 487

Note that the 4 Dr Strange appearances are the same (and in the same order) as those he lists between FS:IM and NA 29 (7.6-21)-FB. This means that all the Beast apps up to and including XF3 24/2 must be before NA 29 (7.6-21)-FB and hence before MA 1-11. Which includes X 200-204.

So going back to the skeleton timeline we can say that
CDPOOL 40-42 ~ X 198-200
X 200-204
NX2 37-39
NX2 41
UX 486
X:ES
NX2 42
X 200/2-XF3 24/2 (Endangered Species)
are a sequence between DPOOL/GLI /1 and MA 1-11.
(And there are other issues missed out of the skeleton.)

This is true no matter in which of the 2 places in the CDPOOL sequence we fit DPOOL/GLI.

So I've found my smoking gun, and the way is clear to also having lots of Thunderbolts action in the same space.

(Of course there are other ways of resolving this. Eg if the 4 Dr Strange apps are moved to after the NA flashbacks and MA 1-11 then they take the Beast apps with them, and then there's no reason in what's presented here to believe that CDPOOL 40-42 onwards aren't all after MA 11. But I'll run with my version unless anyone can provide contrary evidence. But even without Beast's sequence there's much more in the Penance sequence than can be fitted in the few days the Calendar allocates between Captain America's funeral and MA 1. So putting DPOOL/GLI early allows Beast's sequence to occupy the same timespan as Penance's.)



The Fantastic Four question:-

While resolving the DPOOL/GLI question we already came across the activities of the alternative FF (Black Panther, Human Torch, Storm and Thing). I listed:-
BP4 34 ending their away mission.
DPOOL/GLI /1
Storm in UX 487-491 (with HT/Th in UX 489)
CDPOOL 45-46

We also established that only the Beast apps *before* UX 487 *needed* (according to Dr Strange's MCP listing) to happen before MA 1. I now choose to believe that UX 487 onwards happen after MA 1-11 (we've got to leave *something* between MA 11 and World War Hulk!). Thus only
BP4 34
DPOOL/GLI /1
are of interest.

However Invisible Woman and Mr Fantastic also appear in A:LBM, SUB-M3 and PEN:REL. Specifically MF is in A:LBM 2-5, with IW joining him in 5. Then in SUB-M3 (which is mainly told in sequential flashback but with events of the last day also running through all issues) IW is in the flashback part of #4 and MF is in the current part of that issue. They are both in PEN:REL 3 (cameo) and 4 (major app). Interestingly Human Torch and Thing are with them in PEN:REL (this app was originally listed after all the alt-FF apps). Note also that Mr Fantastic will show up in MA 6.

We have already established where these issues are relative to each other:-
BP4 34 (BP/HT/St/Th return from space)
DPOOL/GLI /1 (BP/HT/St/Th)
A:LBM 2-4(MF)
A:LBM 5(IW/MF)
SUB-M3 4-FB (IW)
SUB-M3 4 (MF)
PEN:REL 3 (HT/IW/MF/Th)
PEN:REL 4 (HT/IW/MF/Th)
MA 6 (MF)

Extending this to MCP's full FF sequence between Civil War and World War Hulk we have:-
FF 543 ~ BP4 26 (11-12) IW/MF decide to take time off and persuade BP/St to replace them.
FF 544 ~ BP4 26 (13-22) IW/MF and BP/St inform HT/Th and the world.
FF 545 IW/MF arrive on Titan.
FF 546 (1 - 22:1) IW/MF alerted to an object entering the Solar System.
During FF 544-546 BP/HT/St/Th have an adventure with Silver Surfer.
BP4 27 (1:3 - 2:1) From here to BP4 34 it's just BP/HT/St/Th being transported round the multiverse by King Solomon's Frogs.
FF 546 (22:2 - 22:6)
BP4 27 (2:2 - 22)-30 An adventure on a Skrull world in the Zombieverse.
BP4 31 Alt-FF vs Psycho-Man in the Microverse.
BP4 32-34 An adventure on the Skrull gangster world. Alt-FF return to Earth.
DPOOL/GLI /1 (BP/HT/St/Th)
A:LBM 2-4(MF)
A:LBM 5(IW/MF)
SUB-M3 4-FB (IW)
SUB-M3 4 (MF)
PEN:REL 3-4 (HT/IW/MF/Th)
MA 6 (MF)
UX 487-491 Storm does X-Men stuff, with cameo by HT/Th in 489 which says that MF/IW are still away.
CDPOOL 45-46 (BP/HT/St/Th)
NW4 2 (BP/HT/St/Th)
NW4 5 (BP/St)
FF 547-550 BP/HT/St/Th and IW/MF vs Frightful Four and the secret of the object from 546. BP/St leave and the original FF reform.
SILWAR 1 etc (original FF)

The problem is of course that Invisible Woman and Mr Fantastic are supposed to be away on Titan between FF 545 and FF 547, during which time Black Panther and Storm act as their replacements in the FF. But bringing A:LBM, SUB-M3 and PEN:REL back in time puts appearances of the duo on Earth in the middle of their supposed absence.

Admittedly MCP already has MA 6 between FF 546 band 547, and the Calendar suggests that Mr Fantastic popped back home from Titan for a visit. (He'll use the same technique later when the team are off in space in their 2013 series. In New Avengers vol 3 he will explain that he's frequently teleporting back for Illuminati business. And in FF 5AU he'll bring the whole team back for Age of Ultron.) So there's precedent for me to say both MF and IW can pop back at other times.

In a previous post in this thread I suggested that the King Solomon's Frogs-powered jaunt could have been through time as well as other dimensions, so the alternate FF could return later than the elapsed time of their adventures would indicate. (The Frogs could be used to transport other people through time in BP1 1-4, and in at least BP3 45 transported the user through time. And their actions are always unpredictable.) The Baxter Building could have sent out an alarm when they were away for so long, which brought IW and MF back to investigate. At that time they would show up in A:LBM and SUB-M3, though perhaps the MA 6 app would be outside this visit.

But this was before I investigated the Penance/Thunderbolts timeline fully, where I found Invisible Woman and Mr Fantastic in PEN:REL. And this time with Human Torch and Thing, without Black Panther and Storm.

So I could argue that the alt-FF returned between SUB-M3 and PEN:REL. Why are the old FF seen without Panther and Storm? I didn't want to say it happened while Storm was off in UX 487-491 (while Panther seems to be absent elsewhere) because I didn't want to start a chain reaction dragging lots of X-issues and who knows what else back before MA 1. But I could use that as an example and say BP and Storm had urgent Wakandan business and Reed and Sue returned the favour and subbed for *them*.

But then a 2nd bit of Penance business interfered with the plan. Previously I had gone with the Calendar notion that DPOOL/GLI (which included an app by the alt-FF) happened not long before MA 1 and could be after PEN:REL. But my Penance analysis convinced me to put DPOOL/GLI earlier in his career, well before PEN:REL. My desire to keep A:LBM and SUB-M3 close to PEN:REL so that all these anomalous appearances of Invisible Woman and Mr Fantastic could be lumped together in 1 visit led me to keep SUB-M3 where MCP has it inside TB:BP, and add A:LBM in there too. This means that the alt-FF are back on Earth in CDPOOL/GLI /1 before IW/MF pop up in A:LBM and SUB-M3.

There are several options of ways to proceed, some of which I considered.

Option 1: Give up the whole process.

Option 2: Modify the above explanation. The alternate-FF come back early for DPOOL/GLI. Invisible Woman and Mr Fantastic come back later for whatever reason (home-sickness, see the kids) before A:LBM. Then the alt-FF have an undisclosed adventure, while IW/MF hold the fort in A:LBM and SUB-M3. Then Black Panther and Storm go off on Wakanda business while the whole original FF hold the fort in PEN:REL. We're now bumping up against MA 1-11 so we may as well link Reed's app in MA 6 into the same visit. Note that no-one is home at the Baxter Building in MA 4 so all 6 of them must have been out for 1 or more reasons, and MF (and others?) returned for MA 6 (when he heard about the Ultron crisis?). Then IW/MF return to Titan for their interrupted 2nd honeymoon.

Option 3: Move DPOOL/GLI forward again. I put DPOOL/GLI /4 early in the Penance sequence because of its place within a gradual easing of his self-mortification. I can ignore that and move DPOOL/GLI to somewhere that suits the FF better. Ie if I put it between SUB-M3 and PEN:REL then we can put BP4 3 there too before it. Ie reinstate the earlier idea of using the Frogs' time-jump to delay the alt-FF's return and having Reed and Sue return from Titan for A:LBM and SUB-M3 because the alt-FF were away so long. We can then add the bit about the original FF in PEN:REL while Panther and Storm are in Wakanda, and the other bit about MA 4 & 6.

What does this do to Penance, whose sequence is now:-
TB:DM
TB 112 (14-22)-115
TB 116 (1-13)
TB:BP (1-7)
(A:LBM 1-5)
(Venom in part of SUB-M3 1-5)
DPOOL/GLI /4
TB:BP (8-22)
PEN:REL 1-5
He had a breakdown in 115 because he's "not good enough". In 116 (1-7) he lost his temper when goaded by a captive villain and trashed the cell-block. In TB:BP (1-7) he was completely useless on a mission. So I could make a good case for him relapsing to an earlier state of self-punishment where Squirrel Girl finds him in DPOOL/GLI.
And it fills up the 3-week gap in TB:BP a bit more.

Option 4: Move SUB-M3 back. I left SUB-M3 where MCP has it within TB:BP because I had no particular reason not to, and because it helped fill the gap. Instead of taking DPOOL/GLI to meet A:LBM and SUB-M3 I could take A:LBM and SUB-M3 to meet DPOOL/GLI, and put them in front of it. Moving Venom doesn't matter, and the Iron Man appearances are as relocatable as they always were. Sub-Mariner's sequence remains unchanged. On the downside TB:BP's 3-week gap is now empty, and SUB-M3's more-than-a-week now adds separately to the timespan. Thus:-
TB:DM
(A:LBM 1-5)
(Venom in part of SUB-M3 1-5)
DPOOL/GLI /4
TB 112 (14-22)-115
TB 116 (1-13)
TB:BP (1-7)
TB:BP (8-22)
PEN:REL 1-5

The FF's apps could now be:-
FF 545 IW/MF arrive on Titan.
....
BP4 27 Alt-FF start the Frogs-powered space/time/dimensions jaunt.
....
IW/MF return to Earth after alert from the Baxter Building about the missing alt-FF.
A:LBM 2-4(MF)
A:LBM 5(IW/MF)
SUB-M3 4-FB (IW)
SUB-M3 4 (MF)
BP4 34 Alt-FF return to Earth.
IW/MF return to Titan.
DPOOL/GLI /1 (BP/HT/St/Th)
Long gap with Thunderbolts apps TB 112 (14-22)-116 (1-13), TB:BP.
IW/MF come back from Titan again.
BP/St go off on Wakandan business.
PEN:REL 3-4 (HT/IW/MF/Th)
MA 6 (MF)
BP/St return to alt-FF. IW/MF return to Titan.
Followed by more alt-FF apps ending in IW/MF's final return in FF 547-550.

Before deciding on an option I thought I'd look more closely at what the FF issues actually say about Sue and Reed's stay on Titan. In an earlier post in this thread I mentioned their scene in FF 546 p8-11 where the AI Isaac notifies them of an object that has just hyperspaced into the Solar system and is heading for Earth. I suggested this belonged with the later FF 547-550. In 547 Mr Fantastic retrieves the object between Saturn and Earth, and takes it to Earth for study. I was hoping I could tie this visit in with the other ones we've been discussing. But Reed specifically leaves Sue behind on Titan, so it could only match the MA 6 visit. And 547-550 are solidly tied together in time and the alt-FF have other adventures between MA 6 and then, so I think it's a no-go.

In the end I've opted for #3 with DPOOL/GLI moved.



Finally, I still think I'll leave FNSM 24 within the time when Dr Doom is in prison, because messing with Spider-Man continuity could be catastrophic. Dr Strange uses magic to allow Peter to visit lots of people simultaneously, each of whom might know how to save Aunt May's life. We only see the targets as fragments in a 2 page spread. There is no dialogue, we are just told that none of them could help. A Doombot could easily do that. The only thing against that is would Strange's spell send Spidey to the wrong Dr Doom? Doom is shown lounging on a throne-like seat. But in an earlier post I suggested maybe a VIP like Doom has to be given a posh prison cell. I'm easy either way.



Next time I really will get round to defining all the changes in sequences for individual players.



Later correction.

I got terribly mixed up when discussing the sequence of Deadpool appearances. I said that the Calendar and MCP disagree about the placement of DPOOL/GLI, between CDPOOL 36 and 37 or between 42 and 43. But then in my discussion I had it before CDPOOL 40, but later claimed that my argument worked in whichever place DPOOL/GLI was. Which is obviously not true.

It's still true that MCP puts the Beast apps through Endangered Species before MA 1, and that they follow CDPOOL 40-42. But since 1 of the sequence versions (the MCP one) has DPOOL/GLI also after CDPOOL 40-42, then this doesn't prove that there must be a large gap between DPOOL/GLI and MA 1.

So I'm reduced to just saying that I *want* a gap. But the exercise did unearth some *true* facts which I will use in my next post.

[robfj]

At last here are the sequences for the relevant players. With some extra tinkering along the way.

Dr Doom
(These are the MCP entries between Civil War and Secret Invasion)
FF 543-FB
X 200/2 } These also have
UX 488/2-FB } to move
T3 5-FB
DPOOL/GLI /6
MA 7-BTS
MA 9
MA 10
MA 11
SUB-M3 1-FB } This is
SUB-M3 4-FB } the basic
SUB-M3 6 } move
PEN:REL 4 } ....
FNSM 24
FF 558-FB
FF 557-561
FF 562

Changed to
FF 543-FB
T3 5-FB
SUB-M3 1-FB } ....
SUB-M3 4-FB } to
SUB-M3 6 } here ...
DPOOL/GLI /6
PEN:REL 4 } ...and here
X 200/2 } Beast's chronology puts
UX 488/2-FB } these just before MA 1
MA 7-BTS
MA 9
MA 10
MA 11
FNSM 24 (in prison or a Doombot)
FF 558-FB
FF 557-561
FF 562
I also moved X 200/2 and UX 488/2-FB because they are part of the Endangered Species story, and Beast and Dr Strange's chronologies put that story just before MA 1-11. Note that this is not caused by my moving SUB-M3 and PEN:REL - it's an independent problem.


Sub-Mariner
(These are the MCP entries between Civil War and Secret Invasion)
FS:A
FS:IM
H3 107
M/CP2 7/3
A:LBM 4 }
SUB-M3 1-FB } Moved
SUB-M3 3-FB } from
SUB-M3 4-FB } here
SUB-M3 5-FB } ....
SUB-M3 6-FB }
SUB-M3 6 }
ORDER2 6
ORDER2 7
A/INV 3
A/INV 4
H4 5
H4 6
NA:ILLUM2 5
UX@2 2 (1 - 3)

Changed to
FS:A
FS:IM
A:LBM 4 }
SUB-M3 1-FB }
SUB-M3 3-FB } ....
SUB-M3 4-FB } to
SUB-M3 5-FB } here
SUB-M3 6-FB }
SUB-M3 6 }
H3 107
M/CP2 7/3
ORDER2 6
ORDER2 7
A/INV 3
A/INV 4
H4 5
H4 6
NA:ILLUM2 5
UX@2 2 (1 - 3)


Green Goblin
TB 110 (18 - 20)-FB
TB 111-FB
TB 109-BTS
TB 110
TB 111
TB 112 (1 - 13)
TB:DM 1 (Take the 1 off to bring it into line with most other refs to this issue)
TB 112 (14 - 22)
TB 113
TB 115
TB:BP (1 - 13)
TB:BP-FB (Add panel ref 21.2)
TB:BP (14 - 22)
PEN:REL 1
PEN:REL 2
PEN:REL 4
PEN:REL 5
TB 116 (Only in early part, moved to be with 115)
TB 117

Changed to
TB 110 (18 - 20)-FB
TB 111-FB
TB 109-BTS
TB 110
TB 111
TB 112 (1 - 13)
TB:DM (Without issue number 1)
TB 112 (14 - 22)
TB 113
TB 115
TB 116 (1-13) (Only in this part, moved here)
TB:BP (1 - 13)
TB:BP-FB (21:2) (With added panel ref)
TB:BP (14 - 22)
PEN:REL 1
PEN:REL 2
PEN:REL 4
PEN:REL 5
TB 117
GG and Songbird are the only chars to refer to TB:DM as TB:DM1.
TB 112 (14-22) has no Thunderbolters apart from GG.
GG's list doesn't notice that the issues have been moved earlier in time because he isn't in the Thunderbolts' guest appearances.


Penance IV
CW:FL 10/2
WWH:ADAMCON 2-FB
(Missing TB 109-BTS)
CW:I
DPOOL/GLI /4 (Move to within TB:BP)
NO4 2 } Move to
NO4 3 } beyond PEN:REL
TB 110
TB 111
TB 112 (Only in the early part, here)
WWH:ADAMCON 1 } Move to
WWH:ADAMCON 2 } beyond PEN:REL
TB:DM-FB (Add panel ref)
TB:DM
TB 113
TB 114
TB 115
TB:BP (Split across 3-week gap)
PEN:REL 1
PEN:REL 2
PEN:REL 3
PEN:REL 4
PEN:REL 5
TB 116 (Only in early part, moved to be with 115)
TB 117
Note here that I am suggesting that Penance was BTS at the end of TB 109 (along with Green Goblin who you already credit).

Changed to
CW:FL 10/2
WWH:ADAMCON 2-FB
TB 109-BTS (Added)
CW:I
TB 110
TB 111
TB 112 (1 - 13) (Only in this half)
TB:DM (1:1)-FB (With added panel ref)
TB:DM
TB 113
TB 114
TB 115
TB 116 (1 - 13) (Only in this part, moved here)
TB:BP (1 - 7) (Split part A)
DPOOL/GLI /4 (Moved here within TB:BP)
TB:BP (8 - 22) (Split part B)
PEN:REL 1
PEN:REL 2
PEN:REL 3
PEN:REL 4
PEN:REL 5
NO4 2 } Moved
NO4 3 } here
WWH:ADAMCON 1 } beyond
WWH:ADAMCON 2 } PEN:REL
TB 117
It isn't clear here that DPOOL/GLI must come after SUB-M3 for my justification for the FF apps to make sense.


Venom IV and Venom Symbiote
CW 6
CW 7 (1 - 3)
MSM2 14-FB-FB
CW:FL 10
CW 7 (8 - 12:1)
ASM 538
(Missing TB 109-BTS)
CW:I
NO4 2 } Move to
NO4 3 } beyond PEN:REL
TB 110
TB 111
TB 112 (Only in the early part, here)
WWH:ADAMCON 1 } Move to
WWH:ADAMCON 2 } beyond PEN:REL
S-H5 4/2
TB:DM-FB (Add panel ref)
TB 113
TB 114
TB 115
TB:BP (1 - 7)
SUB-M3 2-FB
SUB-M3 3-FB
SUB-M3 4-FB
TB:BP (14 - 22)
PEN:REL 1
PEN:REL 3
TB 116 (Only in the later part, here)
TB 118
Note here that I am suggesting not only that Venom was BTS at the end of TB 109 where the old team members met the new ones (offscreen), but also that TB 109 (21-22) happened after CW 6-7 and their associated issues. Moonstone and Swordsman don't appear in any of those issues. Radioactive Man and Songbird do along with Bullseye and Venom (not always all 4 in the same issue), but there is no suggestion that they are a combined team. Bu and V had already been operating as part of the separate villain contingent in earlier CW issues, and the apps here are as part of a general pro-Registration army.
I don't know why S-H5 4/2 is placed so early relative to its publication date. But I don't have a copy and Marvel Digital hasn't released it, so I have no grounds to disagree.

Changed to
CW 6
CW 7 (1 - 3)
MSM2 14-FB-FB
CW:FL 10
CW 7 (8 - 12:1)
ASM 538
TB 109-BTS (Added)
CW:I
TB 110
TB 111
TB 112 (1 - 13) (Only in this half)
S-H5 4/2
TB:DM (1:1)-FB (With added panel ref)
TB 113
TB 114
TB 115
TB:BP (1 - 7)
SUB-M3 2-FB
SUB-M3 3-FB
SUB-M3 4-FB
TB:BP (14 - 22)
PEN:REL 1
PEN:REL 3
NO4 2 } Moved
NO4 3 } here
WWH:ADAMCON 1 } beyond
WWH:ADAMCON 2 } PEN:REL
TB 116 (14 - 22) (Only in this part)
TB 118
It isn't clear here either that DPOOL/GLI must come after SUB-M3.


Songbird
TB 109 (Split into 2 parts, move 2nd part to after ASM 538)
TB 111-FB (Add page ref) (Move to after ASM 538)
CW 6
CW:FL 10
ASM 538
TB 110
TB 111
TB 112 (Only in the early part, here)
WWH:ADAMCON 1 } Moved to
WWH:ADAMCON 2 } beyond PEN:REL
TB:DM 1-FB (Not in this FB)
TB:DM 1 (Take the 1 off to bring it into line with most other refs to this issue)
TB 113
TB 114
TB 115
TB:BP
PEN:REL 1
PEN:REL 3
TB 116 (Only in the later part, here)
TB 117
Note that I'm moving Norman Osborn's meeting with Songbird to after the CW 6-7 conglomerate, before the moved combining of the teams in TB 109 (21-22).

Changed to
TB 109 (1 - 20) (1st part)
CW 6
CW:FL 10
ASM 538
TB 111-FB (1 - 2) (Added page refs) (Moved here)
TB 109 (21 - 22) (2nd part, moved here)
TB 110
TB 111
TB 112 (1 - 13) (Only in this part)
(TB:DM-FB deleted)
TB:DM (Without issue number 1)
TB 113
TB 114
TB 115
TB:BP
PEN:REL 1
PEN:REL 3
WWH:ADAMCON 1 } Moved here
WWH:ADAMCON 2 } beyond PEN:REL
TB 116 (14 - 22) (Only in this part)
TB 117


Moonstone
TB 109 (Split in 2. Move 2nd part to after TB 110-FB)
TB 110-FB (Add page ref)
CW:I
NO4 2 } Move to
NO4 3 } beyond PEN:REL
TB 110
TB 111
TB 112 (Only in the early part, here)
WWH:ADAMCON 1 } Move to
WWH:ADAMCON 2 } beyond PEN:REL
TB:DM-FB (Add panel ref)
TB:DM
TB 113
TB 114
TB 115
TB:BP (1 - 13)
TB:BP-FB (Add panel ref)
TB:BP (14 - 22)
PEN:REL 1
PEN:REL 3
TB 116 (Only in early part, moved to be with 115)
TB 117
Note TB 110-FB doesn't need to be moved because Moonstine isn't involved in the CW 6-7 stuff.

Changed to
TB 109 (1 - 20) (1st part)
TB 110 (18 - 20)-FB (Added page ref)
TB 109 (21 - 22) (2nd part moved here)
CW:I
TB 110
TB 111
TB 112 (1 - 13) (Only in this part)
TB:DM (1:1)-FB (With added panel ref)
TB:DM
TB 113
TB 114
TB 115
TB 116 (1 - 13) (Only in this part, moved here)
TB:BP (1 - 13)
TB:BP (21:2)-FB (With added panel ref)
TB:BP (14 - 22)
PEN:REL 1
PEN:REL 3
NO4 2 } Moved
NO4 3 } here
WWH:ADAMCON 1 } beyond
WWH:ADAMCON 2 } PEN:REL
TB 117


Swordsman
TB 110
TB 111
TB 112 (Only in the early part, here)
WWH:ADAMCON 1 } Move to
WWH:ADAMCON 2 } beyond PEN:REL
TB:DM-FB (Add panel ref)
TB:DM
TB 113
TB 114
TB 115
TB:BP
PEN:REL 1
PEN:REL 3
TB 116 (Only in the later part, here)
TB 117

Change to
TB 110
TB 111
TB 112 (1 - 13) (Only in this part)
TB:DM (1:1)-FB (Added panel ref)
TB:DM
TB 113
TB 114
TB 115
TB:BP
PEN:REL 1
PEN:REL 3
WWH:ADAMCON 1 } Moved here
WWH:ADAMCON 2 } beyond PEN:REL
TB 116 (14 - 22) (Only in this part)
TB 117


Radioactive Man
CW:I
NO4 2 } Move to
NO4 3 } beyond PEN:REL
TB 110
TB 111
TB 112 (Only in the early part, here)
WWH:ADAMCON 1 } Move to
WWH:ADAMCON 2 } beyond PEN:REL
TB:DM
TB 113
TB 114
TB 115
TB:BP
PEN:REL 1
PEN:REL 3
TB 116 (Only in the later part, here)
TB 117

Change to
CW:I
TB 110
TB 111
TB 112 (1 - 13) (Only in this part)
TB:DM
TB 113
TB 114
TB 115
TB:BP
PEN:REL 1
PEN:REL 3
NO4 2 } Moved
NO4 3 } here
WWH:ADAMCON 1 } beyond
WWH:ADAMCON 2 } PEN:REL
TB 116 (14 - 22) (Only in this part)
TB 117


Bullseye
CW:I
CDPOOL 40-BTS
TB 110
TB 111
TB 112 (Only in the early part, here)
TB:DM
TB 114
TB 115
TB 121
I don't know whether CDPOOL 40-BTS is in the right place. If we were following the Calendar placement of DPOOL/GLI between CDPOOL 36 and 37 then it would be wrong because in my scheme DPOOL/GLI is after TB 115. But the MCP placement between CDPOOL 42 and 43 means CDPOOL 40-BTS would be OK. But since the app only consists of Cable telepathically detecting that Bullseye has just killed someone, it could basically go wherever the CDPOOL timeline wants.

Change to
CW:I
CDPOOL 40-BTS
TB 110
TB 111
TB 112 (1 - 13) (Only in this part)
TB:DM
TB 114
TB 115
TB 121


Mr Fantastic
FF 545
FF 546 (Only in p8-11, move to with FF 547)
MA 6
FF 547-550
GSA2 1/8-BTS
SILWAR 1
FF@ 33-VO
H3 106
various WWH issues
FF 551-553
Z:BB 1
A:LBM 2 } Move
A:LBM 3 } to
A:LBM 4 } before
A:LBM 5 } MA 6
SUB-M3 4 }
SENSM2 35
S-H4 21
SENSM2 36
ORDER2 7
PEN:REL 3 } Move to
PEN:REL 4 } before MA 6
FNSM 24 (Don't want to move this)
CDPOOL 50
As explained in a previous post MF's 4-page app in FF 546 makes more sense as a prologue to FF 547.
And I'm leaving FNSM 24 where it is, with either a Doombot or Dr Doom in a posh prison cell.

Changed to
FF 545
A:LBM 2 }
A:LBM 3 }
A:LBM 4 } Moved
A:LBM 5 } to
SUB-M3 4 } here
PEN:REL 3 }
PEN:REL 4 }
MA 6
FF 546 (8 - 11) (Moved to here)
FF 547-550
GSA2 1/8-BTS
SILWAR 1
FF@ 33-VO
H3 106
various WWH issues
FF 551-553
Z:BB 1
SENSM2 35
S-H4 21
SENSM2 36
ORDER2 7
FNSM 24 (Left here)
CDPOOL 50
It isn't clear here again that DPOOL/GLI must come between SUB-M3 and PEN:REL.


Invisible Woman
FF 545
FF 546 (Only in p8-11, keep with FF 547)
FF 547-550
SILWAR 1
FF@ 33-VO
various WWH issues
A:LBM 5 } Move to
SUB-M3 4-FB } before FF 547
FF 551-553
ORDER2 7
PEN:REL 3 } Move to
PEN:REL 4 } before FF 547
CDPOOL 50
Notice that Sue disagreed with Reed and Valeria as to the relevant order of SUB-M3 and FF 551.

Changed to
FF 545
A:LBM 5 }
SUB-M3 4-FB } Moved to
PEN:REL 3 } here
PEN:REL 4 }
FF 546 (8 - 11) (Kept with FF 547)
FF 547-550
SILWAR 1
FF@ 33-VO
various WWH issues
FF 551-553
ORDER2 7
CDPOOL 50


Valeria Richards
FF 543
BP4 27
FF 550
FF@ 33-BTS
FF 551
SUB-M3 4-FB (Move to before FF 550)
FF:IDLM-BTS
FF 554

Change to
FF 543
BP4 27
SUB-M3 4-FB (Moved to here)
FF 550
FF@ 33-BTS
FF 551
FF:IDLM-BTS
FF 554


Human Torch
BP4 34
DPOOL/GLI
UX 489
CDPOOL 45
CDPOOL 46
NW4 2
FF 547
FF 548
FF 549
FF 550
SILWAR 1
FF@ 33
DD@3 1-VO
various WWH issues
FF 551
FF 552
FF 553
ORDER2 7
PEN:REL 3 } Move to
PEN:REL 4 } after DPOOL/GLI
CDPOOL 50

Change to
BP4 34
DPOOL/GLI
PEN:REL 3 } Moved
PEN:REL 4 } to here
UX 489
CDPOOL 45
CDPOOL 46
NW4 2
FF 547
FF 548
FF 549
FF 550
SILWAR 1
FF@ 33
DD@3 1-VO
various WWH issues
FF 551
FF 552
FF 553
ORDER2 7
CDPOOL 50
We've run out of places for it to be clear that DPOOL/GLI is after SUB-M3.


Thing
BP4 34
DPOOL/GLI
UX 489
CDPOOL 45
CDPOOL 46
NW4 2
FF 547
FF 548
FF 549
FF 550
SILWAR 1
FF@ 33
DD@3 1-VO
A:I 3
GR6 12-FB
various WWH issues
M/CP2 1/5
FF 551
FF 552
FF 553
WWHA:W 1
ORDER2 7
PEN:REL 3 } Move to
PEN:REL 4 } after DPOOL/GLI
CDPOOL 49
CDPOOL 50

Change to
BP4 34
DPOOL/GLI
PEN:REL 3 } Moved
PEN:REL 4 } to here
UX 489
CDPOOL 45
CDPOOL 46
NW4 2
FF 547
FF 548
FF 549
FF 550
SILWAR 1
FF@ 33
DD@3 1-VO
A:I 3
GR6 12-FB
various WWH issues
M/CP2 1/5
FF 551
FF 552
FF 553
WWHA:W 1
ORDER2 7
CDPOOL 49
CDPOOL 50


There are no changes to the MCP sequences for Black Panther and Storm.
But I notice that Storm too is in FNSM 24 - another reason not to move it.


Iron Man
WWH:X 1-FB
ORDER2 1-FB
ORDER2 6-FB
T3 3
OF 2
CA 600/4
M/CP2 4/4
M/CP2 6/4
M/CP2 10/4
NA 28-FB
NA 29-FB
NA 30-FB
MA 1-11 stuff

........................

World War Hulk stuff
A:I 6-BTS
A:LBM 1 }
A:LBM 2 } Move to
A:LBM 3 } before
A:LBM 4 } MA 1
A:LBM 5 }
SUB-M3 1-FB }
SUB-M3 2-FB }
SUB-M3 3-FB }
SUB-M3 5-FB }
SUB-M3 6-FB } Move to
SUB-M3 1 } before
SUB-M3 2 } MA 1
SUB-M3 3 }
SUB-M3 4 }
SUB-M3 5 }
SUB-M3 6 }
ORDER2 4-6
ORDER2 8

.......................

IM@2 1 (5 - 38)
W3 57-58
PEN:REL 2 } Move to
PEN:REL 3 } before
PEN:REL 4 } MA 1
ASM 544
CA5 28


Change to:-
WWH:X 1-FB
ORDER2 1-FB
ORDER2 6-FB
T3 3
A:LBM 1 }
A:LBM 2 } Moved
A:LBM 3 } to
A:LBM 4 } here
A:LBM 5 }
OF 2
SUB-M3 1-FB }
SUB-M3 2-FB }
SUB-M3 3-FB }
SUB-M3 5-FB }
SUB-M3 6-FB } Moved
SUB-M3 1 } to
SUB-M3 2 } here
SUB-M3 3 }
SUB-M3 4 }
SUB-M3 5 }
SUB-M3 6 }
CA 600/4
M/CP2 4/4
M/CP2 6/4
M/CP2 10/4
PEN:REL 2 } Moved to
PEN:REL 3 } here
NA 28-FB } I leave it to you to move/change these for my earlier suggestion.
NA 29-FB } I won't mention it again for the other Mighty Avengers.
NA 30-FB
MA 1-11 stuff
(This section is populated mainly by independent cameo appearances of Iron Man. So the exact placement of A:LBM, SUB-M3 and PEN:REL isn't hardwired. It would probably take a rebuild of this part of the Calendar to reach any firm decision about the exact order of these apps.)

........................

World War Hulk stuff
A:I 6-BTS
ORDER2 4-6
ORDER2 8

.......................

IM@2 1 (5 - 38)
W3 57-58
ASM 544
CA5 28


Ares
FS:A
HERCULES2 113-FB
A:I 8-FB
NA 28-FB
NA 29-FB
NA 30-FB
MA 1-11 stuff
MA 13
A:I 1
NW4 2
ORDER2 1
SILWAR 5
World War Hulk stuff
H3 112
HERCULES2 113-115
WWH:ADAMCON 3
A:LBM 1 } Move to
A:LBM 5 } before MA 1
A:I 12-FB
NA 38

Change to
FS:A
HERCULES2 113-FB
A:I 8-FB
A:LBM 1 } Moved
A:LBM 5 } to here
NA 28-FB
NA 29-FB
NA 30-FB
MA 1-11 stuff
MA 13
A:I 1
NW4 2
ORDER2 1
SILWAR 5
World War Hulk stuff
H3 112
HERCULES2 113-115
WWH:ADAMCON 3
A:I 12-FB
NA 38


Black Widow
FS:A
YOUNG ALLIES 70AS-FB
A:I 8-FB
NA 28-FB
NA 29-FB
NA 30-FB
MA 1-11 stuff
CA5 27
SILWAR 5
NW4 2
A:I 3
GSA2 1
H3 112
HERCULES2 114
A:LBM 1 (Move to before MA 1)
A:I 12-FB
NA 38

Change to
FS:A
YOUNG ALLIES 70AS-FB
A:I 8-FB
A:LBM 1 (Moved to here)
NA 28-FB
NA 29-FB
NA 30-FB
MA 1-11 stuff
CA5 27
SILWAR 5
NW4 2
A:I 3
GSA2 1
H3 112
HERCULES2 114
A:I 12-FB
NA 38


Ms Marvel
FS:IM
CW:FL 11 (15:3)
CA5 26
MSM2 13 (17:2 - 17:4)-FB
A:I 8-FB
MSM2 14 (1 - 4)-FB
MSM2 13 (18 - 21)
MSM2 14
OF 2
NA 28-FB
NA 29-FB
NA 30-FB
IRRANT 6
IRRANT 7 (1 - 9)
MA 1-11 stuff
MSM2 15-16
MSM2 17 (1 - 13)
MSM2 17-FB
MSM2 17 (14 - 22)
A:I 1-2
NW4 2-3
NW4 5-6
GSA2 1
SILWAR 5
HFH2 11/2
World War Hulk stuff
A:LBM 1 } Move to
A:LBM 5 } before MA 1
NW4 7
A:I 11

Change to
FS:IM
CW:FL 11 (15:3)
CA5 26
MSM2 13 (17:2 - 17:4)-FB
A:I 8-FB
MSM2 14 (1 - 4)-FB
MSM2 13 (18 - 21)
MSM2 14
A:LBM 1 } Moved
A:LBM 5 } to here
OF 2
NA 28-FB
NA 29-FB
NA 30-FB
IRRANT 6
IRRANT 7 (1 - 9)
MA 1-11 stuff
MSM2 15-16
MSM2 17 (1 - 13)
MSM2 17-FB
MSM2 17 (14 - 22)
A:I 1-2
NW4 2-3
NW4 5-6
GSA2 1
SILWAR 5
HFH2 11/2
World War Hulk stuff
NW4 7
A:I 11


Sentry
FS:A
A:I 8-FB
NA 28-FB
NA 29-FB
NA 30-FB
MA 1-11 stuff
NW4 2
SILWAR 2
SILWAR 5
World War Hulk stuff
A:LBM 1 } Move to
A:LBM 5 } before MA 1
CDPOOL 50
GSASTONX 1

Change to
FS:A
A:I 8-FB
A:LBM 1 } Moved
A:LBM 5 } to here
NA 28-FB
NA 29-FB
NA 30-FB
MA 1-11 stuff
NW4 2
SILWAR 2
SILWAR 5
World War Hulk stuff
CDPOOL 50
GSASTONX 1


Wasp
A:I 8-FB
FS:IM (18 - 23)
NA 28-FB
NA 29-FB
NA 30-FB
MA 1-11 stuff
A:I 1-2
NW4 2
GSA2 1
SILWAR 5
WWH:ADAMCON 2
A:LBM 1 } Move to
A:LBM 5 } before MA 1
A:I 11
A:I 12-FB

Change to
A:I 8-FB
FS:IM (18 - 23)
A:LBM 1 } Moved
A:LBM 5 } to here
NA 28-FB
NA 29-FB
NA 30-FB
MA 1-11 stuff
A:I 1-2
NW4 2
GSA2 1
SILWAR 5
WWH:ADAMCON 2
A:I 11
A:I 12-FB


Wonder Man
FS:A
CA5 26
A:I 8-FB
MSM2 13-14
NA 28-FB
NA 29-FB
NA 30-FB
MA 1-11 stuff
A:I@ 1/3-FB
MSM2 15-17
A:I 1-2
NW4 2
SILWAR 5
World War Hulk stuff
H3 112
HERCULES2 113-114
A:LBM 1 } Move to
A:LBM 5 } before MA 1
A:I 11
A:I 12-FB

Change to
FS:A
CA5 26
A:I 8-FB
MSM2 13-14
A:LBM 1 } Moved
A:LBM 5 } to here
NA 28-FB
NA 29-FB
NA 30-FB
MA 1-11 stuff
A:I@ 1/3-FB
MSM2 15-17
A:I 1-2
NW4 2
SILWAR 5
World War Hulk stuff
H3 112
HERCULES2 113-114
A:I 11
A:I 12-FB


She-Hulk
FS:IM
IRRANT 8
A:I 1
FF 547
S-H4 17-18
H3 106
World War Hulk stuff
S-H4 19-20
A:LBM 1 } Move to
A:LBM 5 } before IRRANT 8
S-H4 21
HTD3 2

Change to
FS:IM
A:LBM 1 } Moved
A:LBM 5 } to here
IRRANT 8
A:I 1
FF 547
S-H4 17-18
H3 106
World War Hulk stuff
S-H4 19-20
S-H4 21
HTD3 2


Before I see how A:LBM fits into the career of the 2 versions of the Skrull Yellowjacket, I need to clarify some details of their history as revealed during Secret Invasion issues of Mighty Avengers.

Yellowjacket Imposter/Criti Noll [Skrull] I's beginning needs to be altered from
NA 42 (8 - 12:3)
to
MA 15 (1 - 18)
NA 42 (8 - 12:3)
because MA 15 shows his initial takeover of Henry Pym, while NA 42 just shows a meeting of Skrull imposters.
Strangely the Henry Pym shown is the remaining 3 pages of MA 15 is the 2nd Criti Noll.

The 1st Criti Noll's sequence finishes with
FS:IM (18 - 23)
MA 17
I would make that MA 17 (1 - 21) to clarify that the remaining pages show the origin of the 2nd Criti Noll.

Yellowjacket Imposter/Criti Noll [Skrull] II starts with
MA 17
SECINV:FF 3-FB
MA 3
MA 4
MA 5 (1 - 17)
MA 6 (1)
MA 5 (18 - 21:2)
MA 6 (2:4 - 21)
MA 15 (20)
MA 8-FB
I would amplify that to
MA 17 (22)
SECINV:FF 3 (11)-FB
MA 3 (8 - 9) ~ MA 17 (23)
MA 3 (19)
MA 4 (5:8 - 10)
MA 4 (12) ~ MA 15 (19)
MA 4 (17)
MA 5 (1 - 17)
MA 6 (1)
MA 5 (18 - 21:2)
MA 6 (2:4 - 21)
MA 15 (20)
MA 8 (1)-FB ~ MA 15 (21)

Unfortunately the clarifications don't help me decide which Criti Noll I should move A:LBM to, because there is no indication where between FS:IM and MA 3 the changeover in MA 17 happens. I choose to keep A:LBM in Criti Noll II just to make the change simpler.

Yellowjacket Imposter/Criti Noll [Skrull] II
MA 17 (22)
SECINV:FF 3 (11)-FB
MA 1-11 stuff
A:I 1-2
A:I 3 (1 - 20:3)
A:I 14 (1:3 - 2:4)-FB
NW4 4
FF 547-549
A:I 3 (21 - 22)
A:I 4-5
A:I@ 1/4-FB
WWH:ADAMCON 1-2
A:I 6
A:LBM 1 }
A:LBM 2 } Move to
A:LBM 4 } after MA 17
A:LBM 5 }
IRRANT 12
A:I 7
I don't know why SECINV:FF 3 (11)-FB is placed this early. Veranke says that measures have been taken against Invisible Woman and Mr Fantastic, but such measures are only actually taken during SECINV:FF at the start of Secret Invasion. At this time the duo are either on Titan or in the return visit to Earth we have posited. And MCP doesn't indicate that either of them are replaced by imposters this early. It would make more sense to have this flashback Skrull meeting just before SECINV:FF.

Change to
MA 17 (22)
A:LBM 1 }
A:LBM 2 } Moved
A:LBM 4 } to here
A:LBM 5 }
SECINV:FF 3 (11)-FB
MA 1-11 stuff
A:I 1-2
A:I 3 (1 - 20:3)
A:I 14 (1:3 - 2:4)-FB
NW4 4
FF 547-549
A:I 3 (21 - 22)
A:I 4-5
A:I@ 1/4-FB
WWH:ADAMCON 1-2
A:I 6
IRRANT 12
A:I 7


Dum Dum Dugan Imposter [Skrull] (with similar page clarifications)
FS:IM
CA5 26
MA 17 (1 - 21)
MA 15 (20)
IM4 15-FB
IM4 15-20
A:I 5-BTS
WWH:GC 4
WWH:A
WWHA:W 1/2
TRUEB 4-FB
A:LBM 2 (Move to between MA 17 and 15)
TRUEB 2-FB
IM4 21

Change to
FS:IM
CA5 26
MA 17 (1 - 21)
A:LBM 2 (Moved to here)
MA 15 (20)
IM4 15-FB
IM4 15-20
A:I 5-BTS
WWH:GC 4
WWH:A
WWHA:W 1/2
TRUEB 4-FB
TRUEB 2-FB
IM4 21


Maria Hill
FS:W
MSM2 13
BP4 27
NA 28-FB
NA 29-FB
NA 30-FB-VO
IRRANT 4-BTS
IRRANT 5-BTS
MA 1 -11 stuff
MSM2 15
IM4 15-FB
IM5 11 (8:2 - 8:3)-FB
IM5 11 (8:6 - 9:1)-FB
IM5 11 (9:4 - 9:6)-FB
IM4 18
SILWAR 2
SILWAR 4-6
H4 7/2
TRUEB 4-FB
SUB-M3 1-FB }
SUB-M3 2-FB }
SUB-M3 3-FB } Move to
SUB-M3 1 } before MA 1
SUB-M3 3 }
SUB-M3 5 }
SUB-M3 6 }
TRUEB 2-FB
TRUEB 3-FB

Change to
FS:W
MSM2 13
BP4 27
SUB-M3 1-FB }
SUB-M3 2-FB }
SUB-M3 3-FB } Moved
SUB-M3 1 } to here
SUB-M3 3 }
SUB-M3 5 }
SUB-M3 6 }
NA 28-FB
NA 29-FB
NA 30-FB-VO
IRRANT 4-BTS
IRRANT 5-BTS
MA 1 -11 stuff
MSM2 15
IM4 15-FB
IM5 11 (8:2 - 8:3)-FB
IM5 11 (8:6 - 9:1)-FB
IM5 11 (9:4 - 9:6)-FB
IM4 18
SILWAR 2
SILWAR 4-6
H4 7/2
TRUEB 4-FB
TRUEB 2-FB
TRUEB 3-FB


Professor X
UX 486
WWH:X 1-FB
X:ES
X 204/2-BTS
UX 487-491
WWH:X 1-3
SUB-M3 3-FB (Move to after WWH:X 1-FB)
CA5 28
GSASTONX 1
I have SUB-M3 in Iron Man's chronology after WWH:X 1-FB. X:ES goes with X 204/2-BTS (both part of Endangered Species). I have suggested that these are after DPOOL/GLI, and therefore after SUB-M3. But my argument connecting Endangered Species and DPOOL/GLI was faulty, so Prof X's SUB-M3 app could for instance even come between his 2 ES issues. But I shall stick to my suggestion.

Change to
UX 486
WWH:X 1-FB
SUB-M3 3-FB (Moved to here)
X:ES
X 204/2-BTS
UX 487-491
WWH:X 1-3
CA5 28
GSASTONX 1


Wolverine
FS:IM
X 200-204
NX2 38-39
NX2 41
M/CP2 8/3
X:ES
NX2 42
X 201/2-FB
S-H4 16
NA 28-FB
NA 29-FB
NA 30-FB
MA 1-11 & NA 27-37 stuff
CDPOOL 43-44
NW4 2-3
W@2 1
World War Hulk stuff
W3 52-54
W3 55-FB
W3 55
W3 50/2
W:O@ 1
W:O 16-20
SUB-M3 2-FB } Move to
SUB-M3 3-FB } before X:ES
NX2 43
W@ 1-FB
W@ 1
W3 56
BICM/W 1/6
W3 57 (1 - 21)
W3 58 (13:3)-FB
W3 57 (22)
W3 58-61
PEN:REL 3 } Move to
PEN:REL 5 } before X:ES
NA@ 2
W:FB
To ensure a fit with Prof X I'll put both before X:ES, but with the same caveat.

Change to
FS:IM
X 200-204
NX2 38-39
NX2 41
M/CP2 8/3
SUB-M3 2-FB }
SUB-M3 3-FB } Moved
PEN:REL 3 } to here
PEN:REL 5 }
X:ES
NX2 42
X 201/2-FB
S-H4 16
NA 28-FB
NA 29-FB
NA 30-FB
MA 1-11 & NA 27-37 stuff
CDPOOL 43-44
NW4 2-3
W@2 1
World War Hulk stuff
W3 52-54
W3 55-FB
W3 55
W3 50/2
W:O@ 1
W:O 16-20
NX2 43
W@ 1-FB
W@ 1
W3 56
BICM/W 1/6
W3 57 (1 - 21)
W3 58 (13:3)-FB
W3 57 (22)
W3 58-61
NA@ 2


George W Bush even gets modified
CW 7
CA5 27
A:I 2
SILWAR 5-BTS
IM4 19 (1 - 8:3:1)
World War Hulk stuff
PEN:REL 3 (Move to before CA5 27)
HTD3 4
FF 557
Easy because the Iron Man sequence has CA5 27 after MA 1-11.

Change to
CW 7
PEN:REL 3 (Moved to here)
CA5 27
A:I 2
SILWAR 5-BTS
IM4 19 (1 - 8:3:1)
World War Hulk stuff
HTD3 4
FF 557


My readjustment of DPOOL/GLI don't force any change for Deadpool because the connections between his own appearances and with the rest of the Marvel U are quite loose. And as long as DPOOL/GLI stays later than CDPOOL 30 the sequences for the Great Lakes Initiative members won't be upset.

The minor villains that the Thunderbolts chased were all guys whose last app was a long way back, so my moving their issues backward in time didn't matter.

So that's the end of the changes as far as I can see.

[robfj]

I've just noticed that Norman Osborn is with Venom in SUB-M3 2-FB (on p17). So there needs to be an extra line in the Green Goblin sequence:-

TB 110 (18 - 20)-FB
TB 111-FB
TB 109-BTS
TB 110
TB 111
TB 112 (1 - 13)
TB:DM (Without issue number 1)
TB 112 (14 - 22)
TB 113
TB 115
TB 116 (1-13) (Only in this part, moved here)
TB:BP (1 - 13)
SUB-M3 2-FB (Missing entry)
TB:BP-FB (21:2) (With added panel ref)
TB:BP (14 - 22)
PEN:REL 1
PEN:REL 2
PEN:REL 4
PEN:REL 5
TB 117

[robfj]

In the Venom & Symbiote sequence I wondered why their appearance in S-H5 4/2 was placed so early, but I didn't have access to a copy so I couldn't check for any reason. But by the same token I don't have any reason to move it back in time with Thunderbolts' own issues, making the situation worse. I can just leave it in place with most of the other non-Thunderbolts issues, in this case after WWH:ADAMCON 2. Ie my amended proposal is:-

Venom IV and Venom Symbiote
CW 6
CW 7 (1 - 3)
MSM2 14-FB-FB
CW:FL 10
CW 7 (8 - 12:1)
ASM 538
TB 109-BTS (Added)
CW:I
TB 110
TB 111
TB 112 (1 - 13) (Only in this half)
TB:DM (1:1)-FB (With added panel ref)
TB 113
TB 114
TB 115
TB:BP (1 - 7)
SUB-M3 2-FB
SUB-M3 3-FB
SUB-M3 4-FB
TB:BP (14 - 22)
PEN:REL 1
PEN:REL 3
NO4 2 } Moved
NO4 3 } here
WWH:ADAMCON 1 } beyond
WWH:ADAMCON 2 } PEN:REL
S-H5 4/2 (Kept with WWH:ADAMCON)
TB 116 (14 - 22) (Only in this part)
TB 118