Alternate Universe Checklist questions

Chronology issues surrounding the non-Marvel Universes/Timelines.

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Alternate Universe Checklist questions

Post by michaelyuri » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:57 am

First of all, thanks to Col_Fury and anyone else who was involved in putting together the alternate universe checklist! Alternate universe chronologies have become something of a hobby of mine, so I'm thrilled to see steps toward getting these books into the project.

I noticed that a number of books which involve inter-universe crossovers are listed on more than one checklist (for example, Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man, Black Panther 27-30, Ultimate FF 21-23,30-32, Ultimate Power). Assuming this is the general policy, Doom 2099 #25, 40-43, which are included in the 2099 checklist, should also be placed in the general checklist, because they are time travel stories which cross into the main marvel universe and have appearances by 616 characters. Arguably, Exiles #75, which is included in the main checklist should also appear on the 2099 checklist since at least the very beginning of the story occurs in the original 2099 universe before diverging into an alternate 2099.

In addition, there are a few books that have already been included in the MCP, and thus aren't on the main checklist, but also have appearances by 2099 characters that haven't yet been added to the project. Should these be added to the 2099 checklist? These books are Thor Corps #2-3 and X-Force #92.

I noticed a few missing books: The Spider-Man Family one-shot from 2005 should be added to the MC2 Checklist. The only original, non-reprint story in that book was a Spider-Girl story. Also, Ultimate Saga should be added to the Ultimate Checklist. It contains an original framing sequence.

Finally, the 2099 checklist includes Ghost Rider 2099: Daddy Dearest. Does this book qualify for inclusion in the MCP? Although Marvel paid for the book to be created, they never actually published it, and the only reason it's available is because the author posted a version online. I would think that unless Marvel prints this book (which isn't going to happen) or otherwise puts their stamp of approval on it, it doesn't belong in the MCP.
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Re: Alternate Universe Checklist questions

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:07 pm

michaelyuri wrote:First of all, thanks to Col_Fury and anyone else who was involved in putting together the alternate universe checklist!
It was all of the Directors. Having said that, no problem, Mike! It was fun putting it together. :)
michaelyuri wrote:Alternate universe chronologies have become something of a hobby of mine, so I'm thrilled to see steps toward getting these books into the project.
Somehow I figured that you would like it. :wink:
michaelyuri wrote:I noticed that a number of books which involve inter-universe crossovers are listed on more than one checklist (for example, Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man, Black Panther 27-30, Ultimate FF 21-23,30-32, Ultimate Power). Assuming this is the general policy, Doom 2099 #25, 40-43, which are included in the 2099 checklist, should also be placed in the general checklist, because they are time travel stories which cross into the main marvel universe and have appearances by 616 characters.
Good point...
michaelyuri wrote:In addition, there are a few books that have already been included in the MCP, and thus aren't on the main checklist, but also have appearances by 2099 characters that haven't yet been added to the project. Should these be added to the 2099 checklist? These books are Thor Corps #2-3 and X-Force #92.
Thanks!
michaelyuri wrote:I noticed a few missing books: The Spider-Man Family one-shot from 2005 should be added to the MC2 Checklist. The only original, non-reprint story in that book was a Spider-Girl story. Also, Ultimate Saga should be added to the Ultimate Checklist. It contains an original framing sequence.
Good catch!
michaelyuri wrote:Finally, the 2099 checklist includes Ghost Rider 2099: Daddy Dearest. Does this book qualify for inclusion in the MCP? Although Marvel paid for the book to be created, they never actually published it, and the only reason it's available is because the author posted a version online. I would think that unless Marvel prints this book (which isn't going to happen) or otherwise puts their stamp of approval on it, it doesn't belong in the MCP.
Yeah, it's not actually a Marvel Comic, is it?
michaelyuri wrote:Arguably, Exiles #75, which is included in the main checklist should also appear on the 2099 checklist since at least the very beginning of the story occurs in the original 2099 universe before diverging into an alternate 2099.
That's one of my questions. At what point does it diverge? And was that the actual New Universe? I'm sure the intention in Worlds Tour was for all of those visits to be to the actual alternate realities... but it's been a while since I've read any of the 2099 books and I've never read any New Universe books. But I'd like to find a way for it to work... any ideas?
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Re: Alternate Universe Checklist questions

Post by SeanCurtin » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:40 pm

Col_Fury wrote:
michaelyuri wrote:Arguably, Exiles #75, which is included in the main checklist should also appear on the 2099 checklist since at least the very beginning of the story occurs in the original 2099 universe before diverging into an alternate 2099.
That's one of my questions. At what point does it diverge? And was that the actual New Universe? I'm sure the intention in Worlds Tour was for all of those visits to be to the actual alternate realities... but it's been a while since I've read any of the 2099 books and I've never read any New Universe books. But I'd like to find a way for it to work... any ideas?
If that was the original New Universe, then it most likely diverged when the Exiles and Proteus arrived in the New U. Likewise, the 2099 timeline diverges when Justice/Proteus and the Exiles come through the Virtual Unreality portal; in the original story (from, IIRC, Spider-Man 2099 #15), Justice (the "Net Prophet") came through the portal by himself.

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Re: Alternate Universe Checklist questions

Post by Somebody » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:27 pm

Col_Fury wrote:
michaelyuri wrote:Arguably, Exiles #75, which is included in the main checklist should also appear on the 2099 checklist since at least the very beginning of the story occurs in the original 2099 universe before diverging into an alternate 2099.
That's one of my questions. At what point does it diverge? And was that the actual New Universe? I'm sure the intention in Worlds Tour was for all of those visits to be to the actual alternate realities... but it's been a while since I've read any of the 2099 books and I've never read any New Universe books. But I'd like to find a way for it to work... any ideas?
Well, if we're taking the Handbook's Earth-numbers as reliable, Exiles-NU is 15731, Real-NU is 148611; Exiles-2099 is 6375, Real-2099 is 928 - so neither is the real version even before you dig down into the detail (as myuri has done for 2099).

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Re: Alternate Universe Checklist questions

Post by michaelyuri » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:47 pm

Col_Fury wrote:That's one of my questions. At what point does it diverge? And was that the actual New Universe? I'm sure the intention in Worlds Tour was for all of those visits to be to the actual alternate realities... but it's been a while since I've read any of the 2099 books and I've never read any New Universe books. But I'd like to find a way for it to work... any ideas?
The 2099 visited by the Exiles was intended to be the "real" 2099, and was referred to in the story as Earth-928 (which is the designation given to the original Marvel 2099).

In Exiles #77, however, the Exiles learn that their visits to different universes while chasing Proteus were creating divergences. The Timebreakers describe it like this:
Recent incursions create New Branches off established timelines. Impossible to determine long-term impact.
When Spider-Man returned briefly to 2099 in Exiles #84, it was still referred to as Earth-928, and up through Exiles #92 the recap page listed Spider-Man as being from Earth-928. In Exiles #93, however, the recap page instead listed him as from Earth-6375, and this designation was used consistently until he was returned there in Exiles #99.

In the All-New OHOTMU A to Z: Update 1, the change is explained in a note at the end of the Spider-Man 2099 entry:
Proteus (Kevin MacTaggert) of the "House of M" reality arrived in 2099 via Jordan Boone's Virtual Unreality portal, diverging a new reality, Earth-6375, one in which Miguel's dual identity was made public early on. This version of Miguel O'Hara joined the Exiles to help fix damaged alternate realities.
Based on this, I would suggest that only the very beginning of Exiles #75 occurs in the original Marvel 2099 (basically just the first page), and everything following Proteus's arrival occurs in the new divergent 2099. I haven't looked at the New Universe issues, but maybe something similar would work there as well.

Incidentally, this seems pretty consistent with the discussion of time travel and divergent realities in Fantastic Four #553.
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Re: Alternate Universe Checklist questions

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:35 pm

michaelyuri wrote:Incidentally, this seems pretty consistent with the discussion of time travel and divergent realities in Fantastic Four #553.
Indeed. I just re-read FF 553, and the case is made pretty clear that visitors can stay for a period of time before divergence occurs.
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Re: Alternate Universe Checklist questions

Post by michaelyuri » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:16 pm

michaelyuri wrote:I noticed that a number of books which involve inter-universe crossovers are listed on more than one checklist (for example, Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man, Black Panther 27-30, Ultimate FF 21-23,30-32, Ultimate Power).
I just thought of something else - In Ultimate Power #7, the (Ultimate) Scarlet Witch accidentally summons the original (Earth-712) Squadron Supreme into the Supreme Power universe. It's definitely supposed to be the original Squadron Supreme, because in #8, Nighthawk mistakes Captain America of the Ultimates for the Captain America he knows from the Avengers.

Since the original Squadron Supreme are included in the main MCP listings, Ultimate Power #7-9 should probably be added to the main Checklist.
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Re: Alternate Universe Checklist questions

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:53 pm

...Really? Do they get sent back?

Now I may have to check that mini out...
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Re: Alternate Universe Checklist questions

Post by Kevin W. » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:52 am

I noticed that a number of books which involve inter-universe crossovers are listed on more than one checklist (for example, Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man, Black Panther 27-30, Ultimate FF 21-23,30-32, Ultimate Power). Assuming this is the general policy, Doom 2099 #25, 40-43, which are included in the 2099 checklist, should also be placed in the general checklist, because they are time travel stories which cross into the main marvel universe and have appearances by 616 characters. Arguably, Exiles #75, which is included in the main checklist should also appear on the 2099 checklist since at least the very beginning of the story occurs in the original 2099 universe before diverging into an alternate 2099.

In addition, there are a few books that have already been included in the MCP, and thus aren't on the main checklist, but also have appearances by 2099 characters that haven't yet been added to the project. Should these be added to the 2099 checklist? These books are Thor Corps #2-3 and X-Force #92.
We appreciate the input, but just a note: from now on, if you're simply wanting to point out a book that needs added to the Checklist, you can post a thread for that in the Checklist forum. If you're wanting discussion to take place, to make sure a book needs added, (because you're unsure or feel we've wrongly turned it down for inclusion) then post that in a thread here on the "Alt. Universe/timeline" forum.

Posting a comic that needs added to the Checklist forum is the fastest way to get something added to the Checklist. I just wanted to make that distinction.
michaelyuri wrote: Since the original Squadron Supreme are included in the main MCP listings, Ultimate Power #7-9 should probably be added to the main Checklist.
But the Ultimate universe has it's own page. Some alternate universe entries are small enough that they've already been placed in the main MCP entries, (and I think that was the case with Squadron Supreme). It's just a matter of where we set aside room for them in the MCP. But as far as the Checklist is concerned, the Ultimate Power mini-series should be kept in the "Ultimate Universe" section and the "Squadron Supreme" section.
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Re: Alternate Universe Checklist questions

Post by michaelyuri » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:11 am

Kevin W. wrote:We appreciate the input, but just a note: from now on, if you're simply wanting to point out a book that needs added to the Checklist, you can post a thread for that in the Checklist forum. If you're wanting discussion to take place, to make sure a book needs added, (because you're unsure or feel we've wrongly turned it down for inclusion) then post that in a thread here on the "Alt. Universe/timeline" forum.

Posting a comic that needs added to the Checklist forum is the fastest way to get something added to the Checklist. I just wanted to make that distinction.
I originally posted this in the Checklist forum, but the thread was moved from there to the Alternate Universe forum. I assume Col_Fury moved it because this is a better location for continued discussion of the Exiles question, but this isn't where I originally posted.

In retrospect I guess I should have started a new thread in the Checklist forum for the comment about Ultimate Power #7-9. I'll be more careful going forward.
Kevin W. wrote:But the Ultimate universe has it's own page. Some alternate universe entries are small enough that they've already been placed in the main MCP entries, (and I think that was the case with Squadron Supreme). It's just a matter of where we set aside room for them in the MCP. But as far as the Checklist is concerned, the Ultimate Power mini-series should be kept in the "Ultimate Universe" section and the "Squadron Supreme" section.
I think there's a misunderstanding here -- I'm not suggesting that the Ultimate or Supreme Power universes shouldn't have their own pages, or that they ought to be included in the main MCP listings. I was just noting that Ultimate Power is actually a crossover between three universes, not two. The story primarily involves the Ultimate and Supreme Power characters, but in issues 7-9 they are joined by a second Squadron Supreme, which is clearly intended to be the original (Earth-712) group.

Ultimate Power is (correctly) listed on the Ultimate and Supreme Power Checklists, but I am suggesting that issues 7-9 should additionally be listed on the primary Checklist.
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Re: Alternate Universe Checklist questions

Post by michaelyuri » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:21 am

Col_Fury wrote:...Really? Do they get sent back?
Yes, they all get returned in #9. Although there are some other characters who switch universes -- one Ultimate character remains behind in the Supreme Power universe, and one Supreme Power character leaves with the Ultimate characters.
Col_Fury wrote:Now I may have to check that mini out...
Buy it at your own risk *brickwall* It's not what I would call a well written series -- the plot makes no sense at all, the characterization is terrible, and it makes a complete muddle of Ultimate chronology.
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Re: Alternate Universe Checklist questions

Post by Kevin W. » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:58 am

I originally posted this in the Checklist forum, but the thread was moved from there to the Alternate Universe forum. I assume Col_Fury moved it because this is a better location for continued discussion of the Exiles question, but this isn't where I originally posted.

In retrospect I guess I should have started a new thread in the Checklist forum for the comment about Ultimate Power #7-9. I'll be more careful going forward.
Thank you for the clarification. If a Board member feels it needs further discussion, a checklist thread will be moved to the "Alt. Universe" forum, (or the main "Marvel Universe" forum). Your original post had several different points in it, (some of which have needed discussion, others did not). The following section of your original post would've worked fine in the Checklist forum:
michaelyuri wrote:The Spider-Man Family one-shot from 2005 should be added to the MC2 Checklist. The only original, non-reprint story in that book was a Spider-Girl story. Also, Ultimate Saga should be added to the Ultimate Checklist. It contains an original framing sequence.
Those are just books we've overlooked. But then you have stuff like this:
Finally, the 2099 checklist includes Ghost Rider 2099: Daddy Dearest. Does this book qualify for inclusion in the MCP? Although Marvel paid for the book to be created, they never actually published it, and the only reason it's available is because the author posted a version online. I would think that unless Marvel prints this book (which isn't going to happen) or otherwise puts their stamp of approval on it, it doesn't belong in the MCP.
That's a bit more discussion oriented. But in the end, it is somewhat a judgment call, and our pal Col_Fury is on top of it. Sorry for any confusion, no harm, no foul. :)
I think there's a misunderstanding here -- I'm not suggesting that the Ultimate or Supreme Power universes shouldn't have their own pages, or that they ought to be included in the main MCP listings. I was just noting that Ultimate Power is actually a crossover between three universes, not two. The story primarily involves the Ultimate and Supreme Power characters, but in issues 7-9 they are joined by a second Squadron Supreme, which is clearly intended to be the original (Earth-712) group.

Ultimate Power is (correctly) listed on the Ultimate and Supreme Power Checklists, but I am suggesting that issues 7-9 should additionally be listed on the primary Checklist.
Yeah, I went to bed last night thinking, "Wait, I think he meant it simply needs added to both Checklists." The Board is now reconsidering that aspect of the Checklists. We'll get back to this topic soon.
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Re: Alternate Universe Checklist questions

Post by Col_Fury » Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:43 pm

michaelyuri wrote:
Col_Fury wrote:Now I may have to check that mini out...
Buy it at your own risk
Thanks for the tip. I flipped through the last three issues at a shop on my lunch break today, and um... yeah. If I ever feel the need to sit down and read it, I think I'll just borrow it from a buddy... But there's the original Squadron!
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