the TWELVE 1

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the TWELVE 1

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:53 am

the Twelve #1
March, 2008

Appearances:
Main Cast:
Black Widow(Claire Voyant), Blue Blade(Roy Chambers), Captain Wonder(Professor Steve Jordan), Dynamic Man(Curt Cowan), Electro… Marvel of the Age!(Professor Philo Zog), Fiery Mask(Dr. Jack Castle), Laughing Mask(Dennis Burton), Master Mind Excello(Earl Everett), Mister E.(Vince Jay), Phantom Reporter(Dick Jones), Rockman, the Witness(?), unnamed Colonel

Guest shots:
Red Raven, Angel(Thomas Halloway), Destroyer II(Roger Aubrey), Union Jack II(Brian Falsworth), Black Marvel(Dan Lyons), Captain America II(William Naslund), Bucky II(Fred Davis), Sgt. Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Reb Ralston, Night Raven(2?), Namor, the Sub-Mariner, Human Torch(Jim Hammond), Miss America(Madeline Joyce Frank), Captain Terror(Dan Kane), Fin(Peter Noble), Whizzer(Robert Frank), Blue Diamond(Professor Elton T. Morrow), Father Time(Larry Scott), Defender(Don Stevens)

Synopsis:
Pg1-pg9: Berlin; 25 April, 1945
Allied super heroes fight Nazi troops as Berlin falls. A group of twelve, led by Master Mind Excello, split off and searches the nearby S.S. Headquarters. They make their way to the basement where they’re ambushed and frozen by an S.S. Commander and some doctors. They planned to wait until the Americans won and their attention turned to Japan, so they could come back and retrieve their research, but they hadn’t planned for the vengeance of the Russians.
Pg10: Berlin; most likely 27 April, 1945
The S.S. Commander and his doctors have been captured by the Russians. Most will be killed, and some will be tortured. Meanwhile, the Twelve continue to sleep.
Pg11-pg14: Berlin; 2 August, ‘now’
Construction has started on a new apartment building in Berlin, but the ground collapses revealing the frozen twelve heroes. Shortly afterwards, American military arrives to claim them.
Pg15: America; a few days later
The Phantom Reporter rests in his hospital room, but something’s wrong. Some details of the nurse aren’t quite right and he suspects he’s being held by the Nazis.
Pg16-pg19: three days later
Having worked out the staff’s schedule, the Phantom Reporter puts a plan together with Captain Wonder to find out where they are. Captain Wonder flies up to the roof while the Phantom Reporter grabs a nickel for a phone call… but the nickel is dated ‘2008’ and the city looks very strange…
Pg20-pg21: a few days later
The Twelve have been debriefed and they agree to pick up where they left off, working as American heroes, but under the new Registration laws.
Pg22: quite some time later
With a gun in his hand, the Phantom Reporter stands over the dead Blue Blade.

References:
Current Day Stuff:
It’s after Civil War, the Registration Act is still in effect, and that’s about it. There’s no S.H.I.E.L.D. agents, though, which is kind of strange.

Those last two pages will most likely have other issues taking place between them. Just a heads up.

World War II Stuff:
25 April, 1945 really nails things down for placement, for everyone involved. Except:

According to Marvel Superheroes 390-393, the Night Raven appearing here can’t be the first Night Raven. These issues aren’t currently in the MCP yet, and I don’t own them to verify, so does anyone care to analyze these?

Cap(Steve) & Bucky(James) ‘died’ after FDR did, before Hitler died, and before Germany fell. Therefore, these are the replacement Cap & Bucky appearing here.(Naslund & Davis) This causes some weirdness with WI? 4, SAGAHT 2, & SAGASM 5, but oh well I guess.(President Truman didn’t inform the Invaders that Cap & Bucky had been replaced until after Hitler had died. I guess with all the excitement of Berlin falling, no one had a chance to chat) In any case, this has to follow CA 215-FB for Naslund, making this the first appearance of Cap II & Bucky II.

Sgt. Fury was in a coma at this time, but since the Howling Commandos appear here, and since Fury’s eye is bandaged, I’ll have to grudgingly assume that somehow Fury was able to get out of his coma, appear shortly during the fall of Berlin, and then fall back into a coma to appear in the remainder of Peacemaker.

With Philo Zog long dead, I wonder what Electro will do except stand around? I guess we’ll find out!

Not really a reference, but it was nice to see, when the Twelve start working their way through the S.S. Headquarters, pictures on the wall of Baron Strucker and Baron Zemo, along with a picture of Hitler and a bust of the Red Skull. Along with all of the retcon heroes appearing alongside the Golden Age heroes, that really was a lot of fun.

Some placement suggestions:

BLACK WIDOW/CLAIRE VOYANT
MARVELS 1
*TWELVE 1

BLUE BLADE/ROY CHAMBERS
TWELVE 1

CAPTAIN WONDER/PROFESSOR STEVE JORDAN
TWELVE 1

DYNAMIC MAN/CURT COWAN
TWELVE 1

ELECTRO/PROFESSOR PHILO ZOG
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4/5
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 5/5
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 6/5
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/5
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8/5
*TWELVE 1

FIERY MASK/DR. JACK CASTLE
HUMAN TORCH 2/6
*TWELVE 1

LAUGHING MASK/DENNIS BURTON
TWELVE 1

MASTER MIND EXCELLO/EARL EVERETT
TWELVE 1

MISTER E./VINCE JAY
TWELVE 1

PHANTOM REPORTER/DICK JONES
TWELVE 1

ROCKMAN
USA COMICS 1/4
USA COMICS 2/5
USA COMICS 3/5
USA COMICS 4/6
*TWELVE 1

WITNESS/
TWELVE 1
(and of course, this would bump the other two Witnesses up a numeration each)

RED RAVEN
RED RAVEN 1
*TWELVE 1
UX 44-FB-BTS


ANGEL/THOMAS HALLOWAY (1940's hero)

HUMAN TORCH 5B
SUB-MARINER COMICS 3/2
SUB-MARINER COMICS 4/3
*TWELVE 1
CV 1-FB


DESTROYER II/ROGER AUBREY
From Dyna-Mite

INV 26
INV 34-FB
INV 34
ALL WINNERS COMICS 4/5
MARVELS 1
MSU 9 (01/45)
*TWELVE 1
CV 1-FB
CV 2-FB
TB 42-FB


UNION JACK II/BRIAN FALSWORTH

INV 41
FS-DOCA: IM-FB
BP4 21-FB
M/U 1-FB
WS: WK 1-FB-BTS (12/24/44)
MSU 9 (01/45)
SAGAHT 2
*TWELVE 1
WI? 4 (1-8)
SAGASM 5
WI? 4 (9-34)
CV 1-FB

BLACK MARVEL/DAN LYONS
MARVELS 1
*TWELVE 1
CA 442


CAPTAIN AMERICA II/WILLIAM NASLUND
From Spirit of ‘76

*TWELVE 1
WI? 4 (1-16)


BUCKY II/FRED DAVIS
*TWELVE 1
WI? 4 (1-16)


FURY, SGT. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH

F: PM 5
F: PM 6 (1-17)
*TWELVE 1
F: PM 6 (18-22)
NF3 38-FB
M/SPT 31 (3:7-4:4)-FB (03/46)
SGTF@ 1


DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER "DUM DUM"
...
SGTF 108 (02/45)
CA: SL2 12-FB
*TWELVE 1
SGTF@ 1


RALSTON, ROBERT "REB"

SGTF 108 (02/45)
*TWELVE 1
SGTF@ 1


NIGHT RAVEN II/
TWELVE 1

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE

N@ 1/2-FB
*TWELVE 1
WI? 4 (1-8)


HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND

N@ 1/2-FB
*TWELVE 1
SAGAHT 2 (19:3-23)
WI? 4 (1-5:4)


MISS AMERICA/MADELINE JOYCE FRANK

MISS AMERICA MAGAZINE 5
*TWELVE 1
WI? 4 (1-16)


CAPTAIN TERROR/DAN KANE
USA COMICS 2
USA COMICS 3
USA COMICS 4/5
*TWELVE 1
CA 442

FIN/PETER NOBLE
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 7
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 8
COMEDY COMICS 9
*TWELVE 1

WHIZZER/ROBERT L. FRANK

COMPLETE COMICS 2
*TWELVE 1
WI? 4 (1-16)


BLUE DIAMOND/PROFESSOR ELTON T. MORROW
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 7
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 8
M/PRM 29
INV 6
M/PRM 30
INV 35-FB
INV 36
INV 37
INV 38
*TWELVE 1
CV2 1-FB
M/TIO 79

FATHER TIME/LARRY SCOTT
TWELVE 1

DEFENDER/DON STEVENS
USA COMICS 1
USA COMICS 2/4
USA COMICS 3/4
USA COMICS 4/3
*TWELVE 1
-Daron Jensen

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Post by Enda80 » Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:18 pm

viewtopic.php?t=877&highlight=gruenwald

From Don Campbell:

As for the date of Captain America's disappearance, in
CAPTAIN AMERICA #332 the chairman of the Commission
(on Superhuman Activities) states that Captain America
"disappeared on May 2, 1945, but (was) never
officially declared dead." This is inconsistent with
that WHAT IF? [#4] issue which had Cap disappearing on
April 18, 1945 and the other Invaders not learning of
it until after the Human Torch killed Hitler on April
30, 1945. However, it is consistent with CAPTAIN
AMERICA ANNUAL #13 which indicated that the original
Cap's final wartime battle with the Red Skull took
place on the same night that the Human Torch killed
Hitler.

If the WI? story were correct, then Captain America
and Bucky would have died almost two weeks before the
Invaders were notified of their deaths. I'm not sure
how plausible that was, even when the story was first
published. I guess the "April 18th" reference should
just be ignored from now on?

For what it's worth, WI? 4 was written in 1977 by Roy
Thomas, CA 332 was written in 1987 by Mark Gruenwald,
and CA @13 was written in 1994 by Roy Thomas. I guess
Thomas, when writing the latter story, decided to
accept Gruenwald's date over his own earlier choice.

Added: Saga of the Sub-Mariner #5 has a scene of the
Invaders meeting from WHAT IF? #4. After Toro confirms
that it was the Human Torch who killed Hitler, Colonel
Farrow tells the Invaders, "I'm afraid we've received
a top-secret dispatch - - saying (Captain America) and
young Bucky were evidently killed in action, defending
a base south of London." Namor's narrative of this
panel adds, "It was years before the world learned
that Steve Rogers, at least, had not perished in
April, 1945."

Saga of the Original Human Torch #4 (Error: it was
issue #3) shows the Human Torch and Toro killing
Hitler in his bunker on April 30, 1945 and then adds
"back in London, we'd learn that Captain America and
Bucky were missing and presumed dead."

It was only to be thorough that I mentioned that April
reference from Saga of the Sub-Mariner #5, I wasn't
presenting it as proof of anything. Remember, that
whole LS turned out to be Namor's autobiography. And
when you consider how many times Namor has suffered
from amnesia, it's understandable that he could
misremember a date that was over forty years in the
past.

As for Saga of the Original Human Torch #3, that story
doesn't make any mention of how soon after Hitler's
April 30th death the next meeting of the Invaders took
place in London so there's no problem there. However,
I'm not sure if the original version of that scene
(from WHAT IF? #4) was as flexible.

One small temporal discrepancy from SotOHT #2. That
story has a scene at which the Invaders are told that
President Roosevelt had died that morning. Colonel
Farrow then assigned Captain America and Bucky to
guard a top-secret drone plane at the airbase just
south of London, and later told the Human Torch and
Toro that he had a few minor missions for them and
then, in a week or so, they would be going to Berlin
to try to capture Adolf Hitler alive. Since FDR died
on April 12th and the Berlin mission didn't take place
until April 30th, there was obviously a greater delay
than Farrow had anticipated. Also, the story in
Captain America Annual #13 depicts Cap's mission to
invade the Red Skull's bunker and retrieve Hitler's
top-secret strongbox. During that mission, Cap
mentions that the Human Torch and Toro are (or will
be) handling the invasion of Hitler's bunker. Later,
once his mission is completed, Cap mentions that he
and Bucky "have to guard an airdrome back in England."
If Cap's mission took place on the same night as (or
just before) the Human Torch's mission, then he was
only BACK guarding the drone plane for a few days
before his fateful encounter with Baron Zemo (who had
been sent to Britain by the Red Skull before the
Skull's apparent death).

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Post by Col_Fury » Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:58 pm

In CA@ 13, Hitler mentions that the Soviets are attacking Germany but that the other Allied forces haven't made it yet. This is consistent with 'real' history, in that the Russians attacked Germany on 16 April, 1945, but the rest of the Allied assault didn't make it in until the 23rd. It would seem to me that Roy Thomas was sticking with his original date of 18 April for the 'deaths' of Captain America & Bucky.

At first, I also thought it was strange for the Invaders not to have been informed immediately of Captain America's death. But then I realized that the American government wouldn't have told anyone until they knew what they were going to do about it. It makes sense to me that President Truman didn't tell the Invaders until he had a replacement lined up for Cap & Bucky. Once the plan was in place, the world wouldn't know of the 'deaths', but out of respect, the Invaders were told the truth.(of course, some of this leaked out, as there have been newspapers seen in the Marvel Universe of Cap's death)

Through my research, this is how I have it:

12 April
Roosevelt dies, Invaders informed & given assignments.(CA: SOL 7/2, SAGAHT 2)

16 April
Russians begin invading Germany.(TOS 72, TOS 79, CA@ 13)

18 April
Cap & Bucky 'die.'(WI? 4, CA: SOL 12, A 56, A 4, CA5 4, CA5 6, CA 220, CA 215)

20 April
Willian Naslund tapped for new Captain America, his Bucky is being looked into.(CA 215)

25 April
Final Allied ground troop assault on Berlin.(TWELVE 1)

30 April
Hitler dies.(SM: FI, SAGAHT 2, WI? 4, SAGAHT 3, YOUNG MEN 24, SVTU 17, FF3 53)

2 May
Invaders informed of Captain America's death, sent to Washington.(SAGASM 5, WI? 4)

3 May
Invaders informed that Captain America has been replaced.(WI? 4, SAGAHT 3)
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Post by Enda80 » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:06 pm

The OHOTMU online bibliographies went with May 2, 1945 for Cap's disappearance.

The story leaked to the Daily Bugle per Cap I#155. This was done during the editorship of Walter "Old Man" Jameson (name revealed in the Back in Black Handbook) per Captain America I#219's letters page.

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Post by Col_Fury » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:40 pm

The Back in Black Handbook says Walter, but Sgt. Fury 110 says Jonah.(not J. Jonah, just Jonah) The online bibliography says 2 May, but What If...? 4(the only What If...? to have 'actually happened!') says 18 April. It looks like the Handbook guys aren't looking at the books, and it looks like you just destroyed your own argument.

Re: CA 219's letters page
(4) The recent Invaders issue of WHAT IF established clearly that only one paper, The Daily Bugle (doubtless under the hand of its new less-than-responsible publisher, J. Jonah Jameson), broke the news of Cap's and Bucky's "deaths." Later, both were considered by the public to be alive, till they vanished from public sight in 1949-- in a story we'll tell you sometime soon now.
I don't see 'Walter' anywhere in there. What are you talking about, 'per Captain America I#219's letters page.'?

Stories trump the Handbooks, stories trump the letters pages.

But how about this: the Daily Bugle broke the story on 2 May, 1945. That's when people heard about it, that's the date people remember.(that's also the date I have for when the Invaders find out) That date's wrong, however, Cap actually died on 18 April.
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Post by Enda80 » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:48 pm

Col_Fury wrote:The Back in Black Handbook says Walter, but Sgt. Fury 110 says Jonah.(not J. Jonah, just Jonah) The online bibliography says 2 May, but What If...? 4(the only What If...? to have 'actually happened!') says 18 April. It looks like the Handbook guys aren't looking at the books, and it looks like you just destroyed your own argument.

Re: CA 219's letters page
(4) The recent Invaders issue of WHAT IF established clearly that only one paper, The Daily Bugle (doubtless under the hand of its new less-than-responsible publisher, J. Jonah Jameson), broke the news of Cap's and Bucky's "deaths." Later, both were considered by the public to be alive, till they vanished from public sight in 1949-- in a story we'll tell you sometime soon now.
I don't see 'Walter' anywhere in there. What are you talking about, 'per Captain America I#219's letters page.'?

Stories trump the Handbooks, stories trump the letters pages.

But how about this: the Daily Bugle broke the story on 2 May, 1945. That's when people heard about it, that's the date people remember.(that's also the date I have for when the Invaders find out) That date's wrong, however, Cap actually died on 18 April.
He died?

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Post by Col_Fury » Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:28 pm

No response to Sgt. Fury 110. No response to the quote from CA 219's letters page. No response to policy. No response to an offered compromise/solution.

Instead...

You're reduced to arguing semantics? Oh Noez! He forgot the tick marks! ZOMG! THAT'S you rebuttal?

*Sigh* We were having a nice little debate there...
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Re:

Post by loki » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:21 pm

Col_Fury wrote:The Back in Black Handbook says Walter, but Sgt. Fury 110 says Jonah.(not J. Jonah, just Jonah) It looks like the Handbook guys aren't looking at the books, and it looks like you just destroyed your own argument.
We ("the Handbook guys") do look at the books. That said, I am not the writer of that particular profile and have not read that specific issue; however, I have checked with another member of the writing team who has, and as far as he could see, the character in question was called Jameson and JJ, but not Jonah. If he has missed a "Jonah," then apologies, though it won't change the rest of what I have to say. More on this below, as part of my response to your next point.
Col_Fury wrote:Re: CA 219's letters page
(4) The recent Invaders issue of WHAT IF established clearly that only one paper, The Daily Bugle (doubtless under the hand of its new less-than-responsible publisher, J. Jonah Jameson), broke the news of Cap's and Bucky's "deaths." Later, both were considered by the public to be alive, till they vanished from public sight in 1949-- in a story we'll tell you sometime soon now.
I don't see 'Walter' anywhere in there. What are you talking about, 'per Captain America I#219's letters page.'?
Col_Fury wrote: Stories trump the Handbooks, stories trump the letters pages.
You see, this isn't strictly accurate, though it is a common misconception. The correct statement is "Stories USUALLY trump the Handbooks, but Handbooks CAN SOMETIMES trump the stories."

To clarify what I mean. If a Handbook contradicts something seen in a given story (as opposed to simply adds new info or expands on / clarifies what is seen) due to the entry's writer misreading the story, then the Handbook has an error. It happens, and when we learn of errors, we admit them. However, if the Handbook contradicts a given story because the writer spotted that something does not make sense (usually something which contradicts multiple other stories) and the writer then raised this issue with editorial, discussed possible solutions, and then went with the editorially-approved correction, then the Handbook is right and the story as depicted in the comic is wrong. It's a retcon to fix a problem, and is part of the remit of the Handbooks; smoothing over bumps in the depicted history. If you ever read the MTU story where Hercules pulled a displaced Manhattan back into position using brute strength, then you should know that the events depicted in a specific comic can be called into question. The Handbooks do not do this casually, nor very often, but they can, will and have done it when required.

With regards to Sgt. Fury #110, the Jameson character was clearly intended to be J. Jonah Jameson. However, thanks to the ever-sliding timeline, he now cannot be. When Sgt. Fury#110 was written, it was not impossible to have Jonah as an adult in 1940. Now, it's a topical reference. Marvel's official policy is that there is now no way Jonah was an adult at that time. That would make him like 90 years old now, and 100 years old in another decade. Jonah is not aging in real time while everyone around him is aging at 1/5 that rate. Young Avengers #1 recently established that Jameson was a child when he learned of Cap's apparent death - and that could have been well after the war, but certainly not prior to 1945, meaning he couldn't possibly be a newspaper editor during the war. Which means that any 1945 or earlier appearances of Jameson has to be someone other than JJJ. There's nothing new about this - early stories showed Ben Grimm and Reed Richards in WWII, but it has since been revealed (retconned) that it was Reed's GRANDFATHER who was in WWII. The Night Raven text stories provided the first recognition that Jameson and the sliding timescale would pull JJJ out of the war, and the solution - the mention of "Old Man" Jameson. Hence all references that show Jameson are now attributed to the previously revealed (IN-STORY, not just from a handbook) Old Man Jameson, from the Night Raven stories. That would still be the case if the character was called in-story "Jonah" or "JJJ," just as wartime appearances of Reed Richards that cannot be shifted forward to a more recent time become his grandfather John, even if the character got called Reed in-story.

To avoid confusion with J. Jonah, "Old Man" Jameson was given the official first name "Walter" as of the Daily Bugle entry.

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Re: the TWELVE 1

Post by Col_Fury » Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:35 pm

Hot Dog did that come out wrong! :outtahere:

Thanks for responding loki. Obviously, 'the Handbook guys' look at the books. And read them, in detail. It would be impossible to do what you guys do otherwise.(I feel the need to add that I buy the Handbooks, read them, and enjoy them. I love 'em!) I apologize for that, I really didn't mean for it to come out the way it did.

As for WWII Jameson, flipping through Sgt. Fury 110 the first two name-drops I caught at a glance was 'Jameson' & 'JJ'. So there you go. I'm sure it was intended to be J. Jonah at the time, even the letters page from CA 219 stated that it was intended for J. Jonah to be at the Bugle during the War. As for drawing a line between the two Jamesons, I can totally understand assigning a name like Walter, there's no way I would confuse a Jonah for a Walter. :)

But hey, I appreciate the explanation and the rationale.

Thank you!
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Re: the TWELVE 1

Post by loki » Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:44 am

Col_Fury wrote:Hot Dog did that come out wrong! :outtahere:
That's okay. No offense taken.
Col_Fury wrote:Thanks for responding loki. Obviously, 'the Handbook guys' look at the books. And read them, in detail. It would be impossible to do what you guys do otherwise.(I feel the need to add that I buy the Handbooks, read them, and enjoy them. I love 'em!) I apologize for that, I really didn't mean for it to come out the way it did.

As for WWII Jameson, flipping through Sgt. Fury 110 the first two name-drops I caught at a glance was 'Jameson' & 'JJ'. So there you go. I'm sure it was intended to be J. Jonah at the time, even the letters page from CA 219 stated that it was intended for J. Jonah to be at the Bugle during the War. As for drawing a line between the two Jamesons, I can totally understand assigning a name like Walter, there's no way I would confuse a Jonah for a Walter. :)
Yes, exactly the idea. As it stands, "JJ" might not even be the man's initials (well, we've established they aren't), as it could be some sort of nickname - "Jolly Jameson" being an obvious possibility which could have then passed down to his successor. And while the Night Raven mention of "Old Man Jameson" has someone claim he is the later Jameson's father, since that would conflict with what we know of JJJ's past, we've taken the line that they probably aren't related (and certainly not father and son), but that people often assumed it because of the surnames and because the modern JJJ seems to have (presumably deliberately) adopted some of his namesake's trademarked look; basically, we are coming from a remit of trying to make the maximum amount fit with the minimal disruption to what the stories themselves establish.
Col_Fury wrote:But hey, I appreciate the explanation and the rationale.

Thank you!
No problem. I've seen some comments on the Chronology project in the past disagreeing with stuff which appeared in the Handbooks or wondering why we did something. All I'd say is, please remember we try to do everything for a reason, and nothing is done casually just for the h*** of it. If you do find yourself scratching your heads over something the handbooks have said, there are ways to reach us and to ask why we did something.

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Re: the TWELVE 1

Post by Russ Chappell » Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:08 am

loki wrote:No problem. I've seen some comments on the Chronology project in the past disagreeing with stuff which appeared in the Handbooks or wondering why we did something. All I'd say is, please remember we try to do everything for a reason, and nothing is done casually just for the h*** of it. If you do find yourself scratching your heads over something the handbooks have said, there are ways to reach us and to ask why we did something.
I know what you're talking about. I've seen the same kinds of comments about the Chronology Project, on other sites.


watching: fox 6 news

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Re: the TWELVE 1

Post by loki » Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:58 pm

Administrator wrote:
loki wrote:No problem. I've seen some comments on the Chronology project in the past disagreeing with stuff which appeared in the Handbooks or wondering why we did something. All I'd say is, please remember we try to do everything for a reason, and nothing is done casually just for the h*** of it. If you do find yourself scratching your heads over something the handbooks have said, there are ways to reach us and to ask why we did something.
I know what you're talking about. I've seen the same kinds of comments about the Chronology Project, on other sites.


watching: fox 6 news
Yes, sorry, I should have made it clearer - I'm not singling out the Chronology Project out as the only place where some people occasionally go "what the f**** were they thinking" (or words to that effect). The internet is rife with people who do that (about the Handbooks, and as you say about the Chronology Project, and other reference sites for that matter). All I wish is that when people have such queries or think we've done something wrong, since we can be contacted, they actually ask us, rather than (or as well as) posting their point of contention on a random message board we might never see. If it is a mistake, we need to know, so we can correct it; if it isn't a mistake, then it'd be nice to be given the chance to explain why it isn't. I'm suspect you probably feel the same when the target of these kind of comments is the Chronology Project.

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Re: the TWELVE 1

Post by Russ Chappell » Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:03 pm

loki wrote:I'm suspect you probably feel the same when the target of these kind of comments is the Chronology Project.
You read my mind. There are legions of fans out there who can help us make the Project better, if they'd just post here, rather than griping on some other anonymous site. *brickwall* What can you do?


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Re: the TWELVE 1

Post by wolframbane » Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:24 pm

Hey Col_Fury, will you be reviewing The Twelve #0? They have reprints of USA Comics #1 (Rockman), Daring Mystery Comics #2 (Laughing Mask) and Daring Mystery Comics #3 (Phantom Reporter). Hope they have more reprints in later issues.

Black Widow (Claire Voyant) was revealed to have been active post-war in Marvel Knights: Spider-Man #9 (2004), and Ian McNee heard a rumor that Patsy Walker (Hellcat) is working with an old widow named Claire investigating occult crimes in Marvel Tarot (2007). I wonder how these may effect her being in stasis since 1945.

Rockman is revealed in USA Comics #1 to be the leader of the underground world Abysmia ("our ancestors, the first white inhabitants of this continent, sought refuge inside the Earth during the Ice Age"). This story, published in 1941, is probably the actual first appearance of Subterranea, preceding FF 1 by 20 years. The Abysmians would have probably come to North America during the last Ice Age from Europe (circa 10,000 years ago) and then settled underground, around the same as Asians crossed the bering Land Bridge and developed into the Native American cultures. This would have been much later than the founding of the other Subterranean races (circa 18,000 years ago) created by the Deviants, such as the Gortokians, Lava Men, Moloids and Tyrannoids. The Abysmian people would be distinct from the human El Doradans (descended from the Incans circa the 16th century), but may be connected to the human (or human-like) Tharkaris' race from X-Men Unlimited #49.

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Re: the TWELVE 1

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:57 pm

wolframbane wrote:Hey Col_Fury, will you be reviewing The Twelve #0? They have reprints of USA Comics #1 (Rockman), Daring Mystery Comics #2 (Laughing Mask) and Daring Mystery Comics #3 (Phantom Reporter).
I already analyzed USA Comics 1-4, and I plan to analyze Daring Mystery Comics... eventually. It's first Masterworks comes out this week, but I'll most likely do the Human Torch Masterworks vol 2 first. And some day I'll do All-Winners vol 2, as well.

So technically no, I won't review the Twelve #0, but I kind of will in a roundabout way. :)
wolframbane wrote:Black Widow (Claire Voyant) was revealed to have been active post-war in Marvel Knights: Spider-Man #9 (2004), and Ian McNee heard a rumor that Patsy Walker (Hellcat) is working with an old widow named Claire investigating occult crimes in Marvel Tarot (2007). I wonder how these may effect her being in stasis since 1945.
A successor, probably, thanks to the Twelve.
-Daron Jensen

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