the TWELVE 1

Here's where you report issue analyses of any issue in any universe or timeline.

Moderators: Paul Bourcier, Kevin W., Col_Fury, Arthur, JephYork, Somebody

User avatar
lkseitz
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 214
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:59 am
Location: Huntsville, AL
Contact:

Re: the TWELVE 1

Post by lkseitz » Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:03 am

Col_Fury wrote:ELECTRO/PROFESSOR PHILO ZOG
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4/5
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 5/5
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 6/5
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/5
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8/5
*TWELVE 1
Can I suggest that separate entries be made for the robot Electro and Prof. Zog? I suspect we'll see someone else controlling Electro before the series is over. Naturally, each entry should include a "See also" link to the other. (And can I speculate that maybe Zog helped lead the heroes into the Nazis' trap? JMS is obviously up to something with Electro/Zog.)

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6281
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: the TWELVE 1

Post by Col_Fury » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:51 am

lkseitz wrote:Can I suggest that separate entries be made for the robot Electro and Prof. Zog?
I had figured it would eventually come to that over here, but I was holding off until:
lkseitz wrote:I suspect we'll see someone else controlling Electro...
...or until Electro became self-aware. I think you're right though, in that we'll one of the two happen in the next eleven issues. I held off on separate listings, because until someone else takes over his controls, or until he controls himself, Electro is just a remote controlled toy car.(I think I compared him to an empty Iron Man suit in the link)

If Electro becomes self-aware, I'll suggest one listing for Electro and a separate listing for Zog.(w/ a see also) If someone else just takes over his controls, and Electro doesn't become self-aware, I'll most likely suggest something like:

ELECTRO/PROFESSOR PHILO ZOG
...
XYZ 27
XYZ 28
continued in Electro/Someone Else

ELECTRO/SOMEONE ELSE
continued from Electro/Professor Philo Zog
XYZ 29
XYZ 30
...

because Electro himself wouldn't be a character in that case, he would just be an appliance that doubles as a code-name. Kind of like Iron Man. But until we see which is going to happen, I'd rather hold off for now.
lkseitz wrote:And can I speculate that maybe Zog helped lead the heroes into the Nazis' trap?
He's controlling the robot and projecting his image into Electro's goofy face plate. :) As for leading them along with Excello, hmmnn...
lkseitz wrote:JMS is obviously up to something with Electro/Zog.
I hope so, I like Electro! :)

Oh, hey. Was your shop able to get you a copy of this & Hulk 1?
-Daron Jensen

SeanCurtin
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 644
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 2:54 am
Location: Holland, Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: the TWELVE 1

Post by SeanCurtin » Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:48 pm

Col_Fury wrote:[...]because Electro himself wouldn't be a character in that case, he would just be an appliance that doubles as a code-name. Kind of like Iron Man.
On the other hand, Red Ronin only has one entry despite having had multiple pilots.

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6281
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: the TWELVE 1

Post by Col_Fury » Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:20 am

SeanCurtin wrote:On the other hand, Red Ronin only has one entry despite having had multiple pilots.
Unless I'm missing something, Red Ronin is basically just a giant Iron Man suit, right? After quickly flipping through his appearances, I'll suggest:


RED RONIN/ROB TAKIGUCHI
GZILL 6
GZILL 7
GZILL 8
GZILL 9
GZILL 10
GZILL 11
GZILL 12
GZILL 13
GZILL 14
GZILL 15
GZILL 17

RED RONIN II/DR. EARL COWAN
A 197
A 198
TM:WY 1-FB
A 198
A 199

RED RONIN III/JOE KILMAN
SOLOA 15/2

RED RONIN IV/TSU FWON
W '96

I vaguely remember the Red Ronin robot showing up in an issue of Thunderbolts. Am I crazy?
-Daron Jensen

Paul Bourcier
Director
Director
Posts: 5424
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:51 am
Location: Florida

Re: the TWELVE 1

Post by Paul Bourcier » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:58 am

Col_Fury wrote:
I vaguely remember the Red Ronin robot showing up in an issue of Thunderbolts. Am I crazy?
You're not crazy...at least about this. :wink: A Red Ronin appeared in THUNDERBOLTS #107. Red Ronin also has appeared in flashback in CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT and in LONERS 5-6.
Paul B.

User avatar
lkseitz
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 214
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:59 am
Location: Huntsville, AL
Contact:

Re: the TWELVE 1

Post by lkseitz » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:56 am

Col_Fury wrote:
SeanCurtin wrote:On the other hand, Red Ronin only has one entry despite having had multiple pilots.
Unless I'm missing something, Red Ronin is basically just a giant Iron Man suit, right? After quickly flipping through his appearances, I'll suggest:

[Chronologies snipped]
RED RONIN/ROB TAKIGUCHI
RED RONIN II/DR. EARL COWAN
RED RONIN III/JOE KILMAN
RED RONIN IV/TSU FWON
The problem is that this implies the Ronins were somehow different, when in fact (except for the last one) they were the same, just with different people at the controls. The Shogun Warrior robots also have their own entries. (Full disclosure: I submitted them.) Personally, even though Combatra was piloted by a kid for one issue, I don't want to see that as a separate entry.

My feeling is that fans feel certain creations, even if not sentient, have a life of their own. Just take a look at the entries for Awesome Android (okay, he became sentient for a while), Devil Dinosaur, and Zabu.

And specifically regarding Electro, I read an entry by Jess Nevins (http://ratmmjess.tripod.com/ga/golde.html), saying Prof. Zog recruited others who could control Electro as well. If this is true -- you'd probably know better than I -- giving Electro multiple entries for each one could get very complicated.
Lee K. Seitz
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

User avatar
lkseitz
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 214
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:59 am
Location: Huntsville, AL
Contact:

Re: the TWELVE 1

Post by lkseitz » Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:01 am

Paul Bourcier wrote:Col_Fury wrote:
Red Ronin also has appeared in flashback in CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT and in LONERS 5-6.
Ooo, more appearances to collect. Thanks! Also, don't forget him in MARVEL MEGAMORPHS.
Lee K. Seitz
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6281
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: the TWELVE 1

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:12 pm

lkseitz wrote:The problem is that this implies the Ronins were somehow different, when in fact (except for the last one) they were the same, just with different people at the controls.
That's a good point. Lemme think...
lkseitz wrote:The Shogun Warrior robots also have their own entries. (Full disclosure: I submitted them.) Personally, even though Combatra was piloted by a kid for one issue, I don't want to see that as a separate entry.
Thinking...
lkseitz wrote:My feeling is that fans feel certain creations, even if not sentient, have a life of their own. Just take a look at the entries for Awesome Android (okay, he became sentient for a while), Devil Dinosaur, and Zabu.
I can see where you're coming from here. However, Devil Dinosaur & Zabu are thinking creatures. Red Ronin doesn't think. BUT, Red Ronin in itself would be something fans would want to track, and splitting up the entries would be misleading.
Paul Bourcier wrote:A Red Ronin appeared in THUNDERBOLTS #107.
That's it! For one panel during the wellspring business. Hrm, I wonder who's piloting him?

What about something like this:

RED RONIN [ROBOT]
GZILL 6 (pilot: Rob Takiguchi)
GZILL 7
GZILL 8
GZILL 9
GZILL 10
GZILL 11
GZILL 12
GZILL 13
GZILL 14
GZILL 15
GZILL 17
A 197 (pilot: Dr. Earl Cowan)
A 198
TM:WY 1-FB
A 198
A 199
SOLOA 15/2 (pilot: Joe Kilman)
W '96 (pilot: Tsu Fwon)
TB 107 (pilot: ???)

I kind of like this idea. It makes it clear that it's the same robot but with different people controlling it. It also allows to include appearances where it's not clear who the pilot is, like in TB 107. I suppose the same idea could be used for the Shogun Warrior robots. Thoughts?
lkseitz wrote:I read an entry by Jess Nevins (http://ratmmjess.tripod.com/ga/golde.html), saying Prof. Zog recruited others who could control Electro as well. If this is true -- you'd probably know better than I -- giving Electro multiple entries for each one could get very complicated.
That would get complicated!

My thinking is, how we handle Iron Man is a template for how to handle Electro. More or less, they're the same type of character. The difference is, the Electro robot is controlled from afar while the Iron Man suit is controlled from within.(usually) When Tony Stark quits being Iron Man, a new Iron Man entry is created.(Jim Rhodes, as an example) But if Tony just lends out an Iron Man suit for an issue or so, we don't create a new entry for that.(Bethany Cabe in IM 300, as an example. She's not Iron Man V, even though she used an Iron Man suit) I would think the same would go for Electro/Zog. He might lend out the robot for an issue, but he hasn't quit controlling Electro.

Now, if Electro becomes sentient during the course of the Twelve... would we then split up Electro/Zog? It would be the same Electro robot that it always had been, but it's now revealed to think for itself.(if that's what happens) When Iron Man's suit did that, only the issues where it's sentient has a separate listing. Or would Electro then become comparable to Venom/Eddie Brock?

This is what keeps me up at night.
Paul Bourcier wrote:You're not crazy...at least about this. :wink:
You're right. THIS is why I'm crazy. :wink:
-Daron Jensen

User avatar
lkseitz
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 214
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:59 am
Location: Huntsville, AL
Contact:

Re: the TWELVE 1

Post by lkseitz » Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:24 pm

Col_Fury wrote:Oh, hey. Was your shop able to get you a copy of this & Hulk 1?
I forgot to answer this with the rest. Perhaps that's good, because at the time I answered, the answer was no. However, later that day I went to the shop and discovered two copies on the shelf, so I snagged one. Thanks for asking.
Lee K. Seitz
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

wolframbane
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 923
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:34 am

Re: the TWELVE 1

Post by wolframbane » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:51 am

Other than outside references to Black Widow being acitve postwar, I also found another reference for the Witness acive postwar in OHOTMU:GA 2004 ("may have become ghostly being later in life"). Does anyone know which comics this is refering too?

loki
Comic Pro
Comic Pro
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:37 pm

Re: the TWELVE 1

Post by loki » Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:17 am

wolframbane wrote:Other than outside references to Black Widow being acitve postwar, I also found another reference for the Witness acive postwar in OHOTMU:GA 2004 ("may have become ghostly being later in life"). Does anyone know which comics this is refering too?
There was another Witness
http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/w/witnesstimely.htm
Scan down the page. Less of a vigilante, more of a commentator. However the Twelve seems to have established that they are unlikely to be the one individual, so it looks like another may have taken up the name after the original disappeared.

wolframbane
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 923
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:34 am

Re: the TWELVE 1

Post by wolframbane » Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:11 am

The "unnamed Colonel" in the story was named Colonel Dexter (according to his nametag), in case he becomes significant enough for an MCP lisiting later.

wolframbane
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 923
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:34 am

Re: the TWELVE 1

Post by wolframbane » Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:12 am

Col_Fury wrote:Sgt. Fury was in a coma at this time, but since the Howling Commandos appear here, and since Fury’s eye is bandaged, I’ll have to grudgingly assume that somehow Fury was able to get out of his coma, appear shortly during the fall of Berlin, and then fall back into a coma to appear in the remainder of Peacemaker.
I have found another reference to Fury being active in 1945 during the fall of Berlin in Motormouth #5. I don't have the issue, could Col_Fury or anyone else clarify this? I originally got it from http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/howlingcommandos.htm and http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/mystechuk.htm
(Motormouth#5 (fb)) <1945> - As Berlin fell, Fury led the Howling Commandos in an assault upon a Mys-Tech facility where Dr. Kroh was raising Nazi soldiers from the dead. They shot Kroh, and set fire to his laboratory.

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6281
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: the TWELVE 1

Post by Col_Fury » Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:27 am

A placement was suggested for it here, it just hasn't made it into the listings yet. (I have it on 30 March, 1945) I never did find a copy of that. Those Marvel UK books are hard to get! Well, outside of eBay, anyway.
-Daron Jensen

wolframbane
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 923
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:34 am

Re: the TWELVE 1

Post by wolframbane » Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:53 am

Col_Fury wrote:A placement was suggested for it here, it just hasn't made it into the listings yet. (I have it on 30 March, 1945) I never did find a copy of that. Those Marvel UK books are hard to get! Well, outside of eBay, anyway.
Now here's a question. Did ole' saint Nick have an eyepatch in MM 5-FB ?!?

Locked