First X-Men #1-5

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First X-Men #1-5

Post by Col_Fury » Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:19 am

FIRST X-MEN #1 (October, 2012)
By Neal Adams & Christos Gage

APPEARANCES:
Wolverine, Sabretooth (also in –FB), Zebediah Creed (in –FB), Anthony (Bomb), Holo (Holly Bright), Charles Xavier, Moira Kinross, Magneto

FLASHBACK:
Sabretooth’s dad chains up the young Sabretooth in the basement.
SYNOPSIS:
Wolverine is on his way to visit an old friend when a kid (Anthony) in the street suddenly explodes. Wolverine contacts Sabretooth and tells him he’s decided to help young mutants cope with their powers and protect them from the government. The two break into a government facility in Virginia, see the boy’s body hooked up to machines, and steal government files to find other mutants. They fight their way through armored guards and escape, not noticing that the boy has woken up. In Washington, DC, they find the first person on their list: Holly Bright, who casts illusions, and save her from attacking government agents. She joins them. They then find the next person on their list: Charles Xavier, a telepathic student at Oxford. He refuses to join them. In Argentina, Magneto hunts down and kills former Nazis.

NOTE:
Xavier is a student at Oxford and is engaged to Moira, and his brother is noted as a jerk (and alive). It’s unclear how much time passes between the Holly and Xavier scenes, and if the Magneto scene is happening at the same time or later.

Speaking of Magneto, Wolverine says their next stop is Argentina to look into reports of Magneto (he calls him by name, Erik Lehnsherr). And yet, next issue opens with them in Colorado, and then returning to New York to train the kids before heading to Argentina. So, yeah.

FIRST X-MEN #2 (November, 2012)
By Neal Adams & Christos Gage

APPEARANCES:
Wolverine, Sabretooth, Bomb (Anthony), Holo, Yeti (Ben Goldendawn), Virus (Lyle Doorne), Magneto, Bolivar Trask, Fred Duncan, Mr. Hartfield

SYNOPSIS:
In Colorado, Wolverine’s group saves Ben Goldendawn from a group of hunters that think Ben is a bigfoot. Ben joins Wolverine’s group when they agree to help him find his brother. Who was taken by government agents. They travel back to Virginia and find Anthony, who explains he didn’t die when he exploded, but it took him a while to get his strength back, and that all the government agents left. Anthony joins the group, and they all go to Wolverine’s cabin in the woods in upstate New York. Wolverine and Sabretooth start training the kids how to use their powers. Wolverine’s group later finds Magneto in Argentina. Everyone fights for a while, then Magneto gets bored and leaves. Reading about the fight in Argentina in the newspaper, Bolivar Trask gets more funding for his Sentinel program if the mutants can’t be contained. Fred Duncan is authorized to try and hire Wolverine’s group to work for the government. He’s introduced to his new agent: Virus, a mutant who can control others.

NOTE:
Holly casts an illusion of the Manphibian; she says she saw the Manphibian in a movie.

It’s unclear how much time Wolverine and Sabretooth spend training the kids before they go after Magneto, or how much time passes between last issue and this issue.

FIRST X-MEN #3 (December, 2012)
By Neal Adams & Christos Gage

APPEARANCES:
Wolverine, Sabretooth, Bomb, Holo, Yeti, Virus, Scout (Josef Dansig), Shadowshift (Jamie Dansig), Meteor, Forrest Goldendawn, Namor McKenzie, Fred Duncan (also in -FB), Bolivar Trask, Charles Xavier, Mr. Hartfield, Kyle Dansig

FLASHBACK:
Fred Duncan gives an interview to a reporter.
SYNOPSIS:
Wolverine and his group battle an amnesiac Namor in New York. Federal agents arrive after Namor escapes and offers Wolverine and his group a job. They decline and return to Wolverine upstate cabin in the woods. Sabretooth and Holly fool around, and Sabretooth tells Wolverine that he and Holly are going to leave the group and have normal lives together. Wolverine talks them into staying. The next day, Xavier, now in the military, uses his telepathy to get a position under Fred Duncan. That night, Trask yells at Duncan for letting Wolverine and his group go. Virus offers a solution: he has Forrest Goldendawn (Ben Goldendawn’s missing brother) captive, so he infects him and controls him to infiltrate Wolverine’s group. Wolverine tracks Duncan and the group attacks. They rescue Forrest and some other mutants and escape. Wolverine feels his plan is working, and hopes the government will soon believe it too costly to go after mutants.

NOTE:
This issue happens shortly after last issue, and all happens in short order.

Xavier is now in the military, and his brother is referenced as dead (he’s not, of course; he’s buried under a mountain as the Juggernaut, but the US military doesn’t know that).

FIRST X-MEN #4 (January, 2013)
By Neal Adams & Christos Gage

APPEARANCES:
Wolverine, Sabretooth, Bomb, Holo, Yeti, Meteor, Shadowshift, Scout, Virus (also in –FB), Forrest Goldendawn, Charles Xavier, Fred Duncan, Kyle Dansig, Mr. Hartfield

FLASHBACK:
Virus is born deformed. He eventually kills his mother and possesses his father and gets a job with the government.
SYNOPSIS:
Wolverine and his group relax at his cabin in the woods and plan to attack the government again in the morning. Virus, spying on them through Forrest, assembles a strike team to attack them first. Trask activates his Sentinels, and Duncan tags along, with the newly assigned Xavier with him, to try to minimize the damage. Sentinels attack the cabin and Holly uses illusions to stop the soldiers from attacking. Virus attacks and enslaves Sabretooth and Wolverine to attack the others.

NOTE:
This issue happens shortly after the previous issue.

FIRST X-MEN #5 (March, 2013)
By Neal Adams & Christos Gage

APPEARANCES:
Wolverine, Sabretooth, Bomb, Holo, Yeti, Meteor, Shadowshift, Scout, Forrest Goldendawn, Virus, Magneto, Charles Xavier, Bolivar Trask, Larry Trask, Master Mold, Fred Duncan, Kyle Dansig, Mr. Hartfield

SYNOPSIS:
Sentinels kills Meteor. Sabretooth mortally wounds Virus, so Virus controls Sabretooth into mortally wounding Holly. Wolverine attacks the Sentinels. Fred Duncans fellow agent Kyle Dansig rushes into the cabin to save his two sons, Scout and Shadowshift. Sabretooth rushes Holly to a hospital, but she dies before they get there. She gives Sabretooth an illusion of them having a long happy life together, but he’s still enraged at Wolverine for “causing” her death. Hours later, Wolverine climbs out of the ruins of his cabin. Duncan tells Wolverine that everyone is dead, including Anthony, Ben, Forrest, Scout, Shadowshift, Meteor, Kyle Dansig and Holly. Trask is fired from his government job, so he starts personally funding his Sentinels and Master Mold project. Wolverine kills Duncan’s boss. Magneto hears about the death of Wolverine’s group, and the military cordon that still surrounds the ruins of Wolverine’s cabin. In Canada, Wolverine, sad about the death of his group, drinks in a bar until Sabretooth shows up, threatening to take away everything Wolverine will ever care about in the future. Wolverine falls out the door and government agents hire Wolverine to turn him into the ultimate weapon. Later, Xavier spends his family fortune to turn his mansion into a school for mutants.

NOTE:
This issue starts immediately after the end of last issue, then there’s a passage of time during the last handful of pages.

Larry Trask already has his medallion here, so this is after UX 58-FB (where Larry gets the medallion) and before UX -1 (where the Master Mold is being constructed).

There has to be a gap of time somewhere between Xavier’s appearance in issue #1 (student at Oxford) and Xavier’s appearance in issue #3 (Xavier in the military). Xavier is engaged to Moira in both issues. Wolverine spends time training the kids during issue #2, but that means there’s a gap of time for Magneto between issues #1-2. He’s in Argentina hunting Nazis in both issues #1-2, but given where the gap has to be for Xavier, that means Magneto is in Argentina in issue #1, then travels to Israel in UX 161-FB, then goes back to Argentina in issue #2. (-edit- not anymore; Xavier's chronology has been fixed, see posts below)

Xavier doesn’t spend his family fortune turning his house into a school until after he recovers from being paralyzed. Amelia, his physical therapist that fell in love with him and moved into his house, broke up with him because he started taking in young mutants in UX 309-FB. So the last page of issue #5 has to happen around there.

For a discussion on the placement of this series, see this topic.

The recent Wolverine Index TPB placed this mini for Wolverine for us. Yay!

Placement suggestions:

BOMB/ANTHONY
FXM 1
FXM 2
FXM 3
FXM 4
FXM 5

CREED, VICTORIA
*XO:SABRE (1 - 4)
*{SABRE 2-FB}
*XO:SABRE (5 - 8)
W4 11-FB

CREED, ZEBEDIAH
*XFM 1-FB
*XO:SABRE (3 - 4)
*{SABRE 2-FB}
*XO:SABRE (5 - 8)

DANSIG, KYLE
FXM 3
FXM 4
FXM 5

DUNCAN, FRED AMOS
*FXM 2
*FXM 3
*FXM 3-FB
*FXM 4
*FXM 5
UX 38/2 (1)


GOLDENDAWN, FORREST
FXM 3
FXM 4
FXM 5

HOLO/HOLLY BRIGHT
FXM 1
FXM 2
FXM 3
FXM 4
FXM 5

MACTAGGERT, MOIRA KINROSS

XCAL 79-FB
*FXM 1
UX 117-FB


MAGNETO/MAGNUS/MAX EISENHARDT/"ERIC LENSHERR"/"MICHAEL XAVIER"

UX 304-FB
*FXM 1
XU 2 (11:3 - 11:4)-FB
UX 161 (5:2 - 10:3)-FB
UX 309 (9:2)-FB
X 40
UX 321
X 41
X:OMEGA
UX 161 (10:4 - 20:5)-FB
CX 19/2
*FXM 2
*FXM 5
GENX 10-FB


MASTER MOLD
*FXM 5
UX -1


METEOR/
FXM 3
FXM 4
FXM 5

PROFESSOR X/CHARLES FRANCIS XAVIER

XCAL 79-FB
*FXM 1
UX 117 (6:2 - 6:4)-FB
X:L 208 (1 - 4)-FB
UX 161 (5:2 - 10:3)-FB
UX 309 (9:2)-FB
X 40
UX 321
X 41
X:OMEGA
UX 161 (10:4 - 20:5)-FB
X:L 208 (6:1 - 6:2)-FB
UX 12 (15:2 - 16:2)-FB
*FXM 3
*FXM 4
*FXM 5 (1 - 19)
UX 117 (6:5 - 6:6)-FB
UX 389 (10:7 - 13:2)-FB
XCAL3 14-FB

UX 42/2 (5:3 - 5:7)
*FXM 5 (20)
ANGEL:REV 4-VO


SABRETOOTH/VICTOR CREED
*XO:SABRE (1 - 2)
*FXM 1-FB
*XO:SABRE (3 - 4)
*SABRE 2 (18:5 - 19:4)-FB
*XO:SABRE (5 - 8)
W3 52-FB

S&M 3-FB
*FXM 1
*FXM 2
*FXM 3
*FXM 4
*FXM 5
L:SS


SCOUT/JOSEF DANSIG
FXM 3
FXM 4
FXM 5

*SCOUT/BILLY TURNER (renumber to II)
SENTRY/V-FB


*SCOUT II/KIM HONG (renumber to III)
MK3 47


SHADOWSHIFT/JAMIE DANSIG
FXM 3
FXM 4
FXM 5

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE

M/:LG 3 (15 - 22)
*FXM 3 (remove brackets)
M/TIO 81-FB


TRASK, DR. BOLIVAR
A:LBM 2-FB
UX 58-FB
*FXM 2
*FXM 3
*FXM 5
UX -1


TRASK, LAWRENCE "LARRY"
UX 58-FB
*FXM 5
UX -1


VIRUS/LYLE DOORNE
FXM 4-FB
{FXM 2}
FXM 3
FXM 4
FXM 5

*VIRUS/CORMAN (renumber to II)
PPSM2 48


WOLVERINE/"LOGAN"/JAMES HOWLETT

[WWHS:WVSCA 2-FB]
*FXM 1 (remove brackets)
*FXM 2 (remove brackets)
*FXM 3 (remove brackets)
*FXM 4 (remove brackets)
*FXM 5 (remove brackets)
GSX 4-FB


YETI II/BEN GOLDENDAWN
FXM 2
FXM 3
FXM 4
FXM 5

*YETI II (renumber to III)
BP 5

*YETI III (renumber to IV)
XFOR 11
-Daron Jensen

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Re: First X-Men #1-5

Post by Jason Doty » Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:44 am

Col. Fury wrote
Xavier doesn’t spend his family fortune turning his house into a school until after he recovers from being paralyzed. Amelia, his physical therapist that fell in love with him and moved into his house, broke up with him because he started taking in young mutants in UX 309-FB. So the last page of issue #5 has to happen around there.
No, Col. Fury. Xavier is in a military uniform, is standing, and speaking to someone about a future plan. Placing this scene after he is crippled is bad placement, because that is not what it shows.

He has an idea, based on a recent adventure, shows someone figuratively by planting a wooden sign (possibly a family financial adviser that knew both him and his family) and after this scene the rest of his life unfolds, waylaying his plan for a school, until after he is crippled at which point he comes back to the idea and actually does invest his families fortune into building it.

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Re: First X-Men #1-5

Post by Jason Doty » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:50 pm

Issues 2-5 of this story should take place before Xavier and Magneto meet in Israel. Xavier is in the military. In UX 161 his friend Shomrom asks for his help because he remembers him from the war. I think the bulk of it should come before UX 161.

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Re: First X-Men #1-5

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:51 am

There’s some wacky stuff going on with Professor X’s early chronology.

Currently, we have Professor X meeting Magneto in Israel (UX 161-FB) during his war appearances, before Moira breaks up with him. And yet, UX 161-FB explicitly takes place after Moira breaks up with Professor X. Also, UX 161-FB has a footnote and dialogue that places UX 161-FB after Professor X meets Storm in Cairo (UX 117 (6:7 - 15)-FB).

Here’s what it should look like (with notes):

PROFESSOR X/CHARLES FRANCIS XAVIER

XCAL 79-FB
UX 117 (6:2 - 6:4)-FB (Xavier goes off to war)
X:L 208 (6:1 - 6:2)-FB (Xavier in war)
UX 12 (15:2 - 16:2)-FB (Xavier in war, Marko buried in a mountain)
UX 117 (6:5 - 6:6)-FB (Xavier in war, Moira breaks up with him)
UX 389 (10:7 - 13:2)-FB (Xavier in war, reads Moira’s letter again)
XCAL3 14-FB (Xavier in war)
UX 309 (9:7)-FB (Xavier post-war, reads Moira’s letter again)
UX 309 (10:2 - 10:3)-FB (Xavier burns Moira’s letter)
UX 117 (6:7 - 15)-FB (post-war, Xavier goes to Cairo)
UX 161 (5:2 - 10:3)-FB (post-war, post-Moira, post-Cairo, Xavier meets Magneto in Israel)
UX 309 (9:2)-FB
X 40
UX 321
X 41
X:OMEGA
UX 161 (10:4 - 20:5)-FB (more Israel stuff)
X:L 208 (1 - 2)-FB (after Cairo, before Xavier’s legs are crushed)
X&CD 1-FB
UX 20 (14 - 18:4)-FB (Xavier’s legs are crushed)


FXM 3 has to take place shortly after UX 12 (15:2 - 16:2)-FB, because in FXM 3, Xavier is on leave because his step-brother was buried under a mountain.

FXM 3 has to take place before UX 117 (6:5 - 6:6)-FB, because Xavier notes in FXM 3 that he’s still engaged to Moira; Moira breaks up with him in UX 117 (6:5 - 6:6)-FB.

Putting it all together:

PROFESSOR X/CHARLES FRANCIS XAVIER

XCAL 79-FB
UX 117 (6:2 - 6:4)-FB
X:L 208 (6:1 - 6:2)-FB
UX 12 (15:2 - 16:2)-FB
FXM 3
FXM 4
FXM 5 (1 - 19)
UX 117 (6:5 - 6:6)-FB
UX 389 (10:7 - 13:2)-FB
XCAL3 14-FB
UX 309 (9:7)-FB
UX 309 (10:2 - 10:3)-FB
UX 117 (6:7 - 15)-FB
UX 161 (5:2 - 10:3)-FB
UX 309 (9:2)-FB
X 40
UX 321
X 41
X:OMEGA
UX 161 (10:4 - 20:5)-FB
X:L 208 (1 - 2)-FB
X&CD 1-FB
UX 20 (14 - 18:4)-FB


That means for Magneto:

MAGNETO/MAGNUS/MAX EISENHARDT/"ERIC LENSHERR"/"MICHAEL XAVIER"

UX 304-FB
FXM 1
FXM 2
FXM 5
XU 2 (11:3 - 11:4)-FB
UX 161 (5:2 - 10:3)-FB
UX 309 (9:2)-FB
X 40
UX 321
X 41
X:OMEGA
UX 161 (10:4 - 20:5)-FB
CX 19/2
GENX 10-FB
-Daron Jensen

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Re: First X-Men #1-5

Post by Jason Doty » Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:19 am

I think we are pretty close, I'm re-posting my original analysis of the FB's for Xavier to compare with yours. The only thing would be to hammer down the final scenes from issue 5.

UX 389 (5 - 8:5)-FB (Xavier meets Moira, they fall in love after he saves her from car accident)
UX 117 (6)-FB (Moira and Xavier hold hands)
UX 117 (6)-FB (Moira and Xavier kiss)
XCAL 79-FB (Xavier and Moira vacation in the French Riviera)
FXM #1 (17:3-19) (Wolverine tries to recruit Xavier Xavier is engaged)
X 208 (6:1-6:2)-FB (Xavier creates shields to block out minds while in Korea)
UX 117 (6)-FB (Xavier and Cain in fox hole)
UX 12 (15:2 - 16:2)-FB (Xavier follows his deserting brother who becomes Juggernaut)
FXM 3 (12) (Xavier mentally coerces a superior into getting a different assignment-Xavier still engaged offered leave.)
FXM 4 (12-21) (Assault on Wolverine's Cabin.)
FXM 5 (1-14) (Assault on Wolverine's cabin continued.)
UX 117 (6)-FB (Xavier receives letter breaking engagement)
UX 389 (10:7 - 13:2)-FB (Xavier in Vietnam as "Good Shepard")
XCAL3 14-FB (Xavier serving with Wolverine and Carmen Pryde in Vietnam)
FXM #5 (21) (Xavier in uniform planting a sign, possibly after he returns home)
UX 309 (9:7)-FB (Xavier re-reads the "Dear John" from Moira)
UX 309 (10:2 - 10:3)-FB (Xavier burns the letter)
UX 117 (6)-FB (Xavier travels to Kierinos on vacation)
UX 117 (7-15)-FB (Xavier then travels to Cairo, Egypt and battles Farouk while still on vacation)
UX 161 (5:2 - 10:3)-FB (Xavier travels to Israel by request of friend, meets Magneto)
UX 309 (9:2)-FB (Xavier begins relationship with Gabriel Haller)
X 40 (These have to due with Legion traveling back in time)
UX 321 (These have to due with Legion traveling back in time)
X 41(These have to due with Legion traveling back in time)
X:OMEGA (These have to due with Legion traveling back in time)
UX 161 (10:4 - 20:5)-FB (Xavier and Magneto stop Baron Strucker)
X 208-FB (1-2:2)-FB (Xavier makes amends with Moira)
X3 11-FB (Xavier travels to Kenya about mysterious reports, has a run in with Vampires)
X&CD 1-FB (Xavier stumbles upon ClanDestine in Venezuela)
UX 20 (14 - 18:4)-FB (Xavier travels to Tibet, gets crippled)

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Re: First X-Men #1-5

Post by JephYork » Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:59 pm

Jason Doty wrote:No, Col. Fury.
Yes, Col. Fury.
Jason Doty wrote:Xavier is...standing...
He's not shown standing on-panel, Jason. He's not shown sitting either. He's shown only from the waist up.

As was discussed last year, in the thread Fury linked to, aspects of that final page are obviously errors. The school is the Cassaday version. The guy Xavier's talking to *seems* to be his (dead) father, given the familiar way he refers to "mother."
Placing this scene after he is crippled is bad placement, because that is not what it shows.
You're projecting here, based on your own solution. The page doesn't "show" his mobility status one way or the other. Fury's conclusion isn't "bad placement", it's "different placement than you want."
He has an idea, based on a recent adventure, shows someone figuratively by planting a wooden sign (possibly a family financial adviser that knew both him and his family) and after this scene the rest of his life unfolds, waylaying his plan for a school, until after he is crippled at which point he comes back to the idea and actually does invest his families fortune into building it.
I dislike this. It's far easier to just say "well, you don't see his feet, that means this can occur after he's crippled, which is where all previous comics have indicated that it occurred."

EDIT: let's not forget that the second-to-last page of this same issue also contains a huge error: Wolverine voluntarily signing up for what appears to be the Weapon X Project.

We handwaved that away in order to preserve Wolvie's larger pre-existing narrative, by saying "well, they don't actually say Adamantium-implants, so it must be something else..." In the same vein, I don't see any problem with doing the same exact thing here -- handwaving away the fact that Prof. X is wearing a military uniform, in order to preserve the larger pre-existing narrative of his own life.

-Jeph!

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Re: First X-Men #1-5

Post by Jason Doty » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:56 pm

Jeph! We both have our point of view. Scan up the page and we'll see what others think. Your protection of an overall narrative in the face of new evidence can't hold water forever.

Years ago, we argued the placement of Web of Spider-Man v2 no. 9 that clearly showed a young Cyclops and Professor X which should have been placed in the Silver Age, because the artist put Xavier Institute on the sign (art error), you placed this by UX 167. Even though the rest of the issues in this series all have a modern day element and a component that harkens back to the silver age. Scan it up.

You divided the fight scene in World War Hulk: Spider-Man vs. Thor, because it showed Jean Grey and Cyclops put putting and you billed it as a date rather than an outing moving this scene by the flashback in UX 138, when the entirety of the story takes place at the same time. Once again scan it up.

You say I'm projecting because it's not what "I want." No, I'm letting you know and anybody else here, that those placements are glaringly wrong and anyone reading would question them.

I currently don't have a scanner available, but if someone would put these up. I'd appreciate it.

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Re: First X-Men #1-5

Post by JephYork » Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:36 am

"Glaringly wrong." You're hilarious.

In general, I think Col. Fury is intelligent enough to read comics, weigh evidence, draw conclusions, and follow the arguments and suggestions of various people on these boards. But I didn't like how you stepped in to "correct" him above. You took your own personal spin on the scene, and stated it as A FACT. Unambiguous. As if Fury simply missed something while reading, and you're setting him straight.

I don't like people with an agenda pushing that agenda while trying to pitch it as "the only correct conclusion."

I have a different interpretation of the scene, yes. But when I pitch my idea, I start by explaining that there's a problem on the page -- then I explain that this is my suggestion for re-interpreting the scene to solve that problem. So that Fury, and others reading, have the facts. And so they know where the story on the page ends, and the Jeph York Theory begins.

In this thread, you glossed over all of that vital setup and just said "no, Col. Fury, here's what's on the page and so here's what happened." As if by waiting 18 months and then reiterating your idea, you can sneak it past people who might have forgotten the details of the original debate.

I needed to step in and set the record straight. It's not as black and white as you want him to think. There's a problem on the page and there are multiple ways of approaching a fix.

If I was trying to push my agenda the same way you were, I would say "he's clearly sitting down," without clarifying. The same way you said "he's standing" without elaborating.

Instead, I told the truth -- "you can't see his legs" -- even though that weakens the argument for my own personal conclusion. Because I prefer talking about what's shown on the page, not what I assume to be true because it fits my preconceived notion.

In general, I lay out the truth and then argue for my conclusion. In this thread, you laid out your conclusion as if it *was* the truth. I don't like that. I think it's sneaky.


As for the other placements you mentioned, clearly you have a longer memory than I do -- or you hold a grudge? -- but I imagine that if the situations were as black and white as you want them to be, everyone else on the board would have stood up and rolled over my wacky maverick conclusions, laughing at me as they pointed out how obvious it was that I was off-track.

Since they didn't, maybe the situations were more complicated than you want to acknowledge?

Certainly you don't seem interested in acknowledging or discussing the other continuity errors on the final two pages of the First X-Men series. Because acknowledging that there are errors that need to be dismissed complicates the situation and hurts the strength of your conclusion.

Look at the way you describe my conclusions over the years. "Glaringly wrong." One man holding out stubbornly against an inevitable tide of new evidence -- my defeat literally just a matter of time.

You're not interested in acknowledging that things are complicated. You're not interested in acknowledging that your suggestions are just suggestions. You're interested in using high-school debate tactics to make everyone think that there is One Clearly Right Answer and One Clearly Wrong Answer.

-Jeph!

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Re: First X-Men #1-5

Post by JephYork » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:10 am

Wait a sec:
You divided the fight scene in World War Hulk: Spider-Man vs. Thor, because it showed Jean Grey and Cyclops put putting and you billed it as a date rather than an outing moving this scene by the flashback in UX 138, when the entirety of the story takes place at the same time. ... I'm letting you know and anybody else here, that those placements are glaringly wrong and anyone reading would question them.
I just found the thread in question, from 2010. I notice that while you contributed to it several times, you did not once question my conclusion about this flashback.

Nobody said a word, including you. Obviously, it was "glaringly wrong."

Here, everyone. Check it out. This is something that Jason considers "glaringly wrong" and an example of my poor ability to chronologize. Page four, fifth post down.

http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/vie ... f=2&t=5048

Please note that while I provided an actual rationale for my conclusion at the time -- pointing out placement clues and identifying a timeframe where they work -- all Jason offers as a rebuttal, four years later, is "the entirety of the story takes place at the same time." Nice and specific, thanks, much appreciated.

-Jeph!

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Re: First X-Men #1-5

Post by JephYork » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:20 am

Also, reading that whole thread -- wow, check out my ability to be shown new evidence and to alter my conclusions! Lookit that whole Cable/Post/Prof. X thing, how Michael brings up new chronology clues that I was unaware of and I change my thoughts on placement. Lookit how I consider the pros and cons of multiple solutions.

Why, it's almost like I'm searching for a *correct* answer, rather than just pushing my agenda through at all costs even though it's glaringly wrong!

But no -- please continue to characterize me as a stubborn guy who's mainly concerned with clinging to one version of events at all costs, "in the face of new evidence." I appreciate it.

-Jeph!

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Re: First X-Men #1-5

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:41 pm

JephYork wrote:In general, I think Col. Fury is intelligent enough…
Yay, I'm generally intelligent! :lol:

I will say we don't see Xavier's legs on the last page of FXM 5. We don't know if he's sitting or standing, so we can't really use that as evidence. Heck, the one panel where we might have seen his legs has the sign he just planted covering our view of him from the waist down.

Why is Xavier in his military uniform on the last page of FXM 5, if this takes place years after he's left the military (as Jeph and I suggest)? Maybe he just got back from a Veteran's Day parade. Maybe he's feeling nostalgic. Maybe he didn't have any other clean clothes that day.

Other comics (the Silver Age origin backups and UX 309-FB, off the top of my head) have already established that Xavier didn't open the school until after he was paralyzed. This one page where we don't even see his legs isn't enough for me to say he decided to turn his house into a school a decade (give or take) before he actually did it.

PS: Xavier's MCP listing has been reshuffled to place UX 161-FB in the correct spot. Yay!
-Daron Jensen

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Re: First X-Men #1-5

Post by Jason Doty » Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:43 pm

Jeph! My intent is not to disparage you or Col. Fury (I realize you and he work really hard at this), but to point out that I disagree with your placement. The fact that Col. Fury analysis took your view and did not explain what was shown on panel, was wrong. He just reiterated your original placement talking point. Though I thank him for linking to our original discussion and you for pointing out that you’re going to “handwave” the fact he is shown in military uniform.

A year ago, I stopped debating you about this, due to your working on the Index, per your request, and not because I agreed with your assertion. I went as far as reviewing all of Xavier’s flashbacks for the time period discussed and laid them out for all to view.

I did not feel the need to debate your Wolverine placement because, for whatever reason you had, it ended up where I would have also placed it, before Xavier and Wolverine meeting in Vietnam. Which is where I believe the time frame for this should also take place.

The last pages of the series, take place shortly after the conclusion of the main story. I believe that anyone reading this story would come to the same conclusion. Therefore to get as much feedback as possible we should scan it up, for those who did not purchase this series.

As for being sneaky. I post my opinions here just like you, for all to read. I could have cried “sneaky,” when this was written.

Col. Fury wrote
“Later, Xavier spends his family fortune to turn his mansion into a school for mutants.”
Which just happens to be your argument in placement for moving this to a later spot and not what was visibly shown. So who is pushing whose own agenda and sneaking it by people.

As far as any of this being more complicated and my answer being too simplistic. You’re causing it to be, for advocating to place scenes where anyone who has read an X-Men comic, would say “huh?” Those examples I pulled out were for a reason. They are not complicated. They were made that way, through over analyzing. (I remember having to debate whether the Hulk was a crap actor or not, when a comic only fit into one spot.)

Jeph!, I really don’t want to spend my time calling you out or vice-verse, I’m sure you’re here for the fun of it just like the rest of us. I hold no grudge against you, you and Fury and all the others have done a tremendous amount of work over the years. When I use phrases like “glaringly wrong,” I’m referring to what is visibly shown as compared to the suggested placement I’m arguing against. In the future when we are arguing, we should scan it, for more clarity in our debate and possibly more discussion from others. If others share your point of view, let’s give everyone a chance to join in. (We are literally arguing between when Xavier decided to open a school and when he actually did.)

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Re: First X-Men #1-5

Post by Jason Doty » Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:27 pm

Col Fury

UX 309 states that Amelia and Xavier returned to his father's estate to pursue his "life's work." He attends school at Columbia while she and he search for mutants to train. He was also developing Cerebro while in India. The idea to start a school predates Cyclops' arrival at the school, though that is the night she decides to leave.

I'll go over the back ups as well to see which side of our debate that they support.

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Re: First X-Men #1-5

Post by JephYork » Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:49 pm

My intent is not to disparage you or Col. Fury...but to point out that I disagree with your placement.
There's a difference between saying "I disagree" and saying "you are wrong." ("Glaringly" wrong, at that!)
He just reiterated your original placement talking point.
See, there you go again, throwing in high-school debate phrases like "talking point" to make the other side sound illegitimate. The fact is, Fury read the comic by himself, came to a conclusion by himself, and stated it himself. He's not "reiterating my talking points." He simply came to the same conclusion I did, independently.
The last pages of the series, take place shortly after the conclusion of the main story. I believe that anyone reading this story would come to the same conclusion.
Two individual people -- myself and Col. Fury -- have read the story and NOT come to this conclusion. So your belief that "anyone" who reads it would simply agree with you, is wrong. And therefore needs to be discarded as non-productive.
I post my opinions here just like you
Not "just" like me, no. Which was my initial point. I flag them up as opinions.
not what was visibly shown.
Stop doing this. Nothing was "visibly shown." Admit that already. This infuriates me, and is probably the reason this little exchange has gone on for so long and has gotten so testy. You are literally making assumptions about off-panel things, and arguing them as facts.
So who is pushing whose own agenda and sneaking it by people.
A better question is -- why are you using something Col. Fury said, to try to win a pissing contest with ME? I have nothing to do with the way Fury phrases his posts. I think you're operating under a Groupthink conspiracy theory -- that if he and I agree, it's because we were Index co-workers and one of us is automatically taking the other's side. Or that we've discussed it privately and I've convinced him. Not true.
As far as any of this being more complicated and my answer being too simplistic. You’re causing it to be, for advocating to place scenes where anyone who has read an X-Men comic, would say “huh?”
And there you go again, generalizing and assuming that "anyone" who reads the material would automatically agree with you. Meanwhile, you're talking to two people who read the material and did NOT agree with you ... but hey, let's not point that out, because it doesn't fit your arguing stance that Everyone Would Agree With You If Only They'd Read The Book Properly.
They are not complicated. They were made that way, through over analyzing.
Ironically, I believe that YOU are doing the "over-analyzing" of this final page. I read it, said "hmm, lotta mistakes here" and slotted it into the spot where it was already established to have occurred. Col. Fury did the same, without any conspiracy-theory prodding from me.

Whereas YOU read it, said "hmm, that doesn't fit with what's come before" and proceeded to invent a gigantic rationalization to insert a heretofore-unrevealed sequence of decisions into Xavier's backstory ... which allow him to APPEAR TO POSSIBLY BE STANDING ON THIS ONE PAGE.

Who's overthinking now?
Those examples I pulled out were for a reason. They are not complicated. They were made that way, through over analyzing.
I disagree. They veered too far from established continuity and required creative fixing to be made to fit. As does this scene.
I’m sure you’re here for the fun of it just like the rest of us.
No, I'm not. I'm here to make sure the work is done right.
you and Fury and all the others have done a tremendous amount of work over the years.
Then you might consider trusting my judgment. ;)
When I use phrases like “glaringly wrong,” I’m referring to what is visibly shown
And when you use phrases like "visibly shown," you're often referring to things that *aren't actually visibly shown.* Like Xavier standing. So it seems you're misusing BOTH phrases.
In the future when we are arguing, we should scan it
While that's a good idea in general, I don't like the idea of arguing by presenting single pages or panels out of the larger context. Ideally anyone who engages in a debate should have access to the entire story in question, in case of clues elsewhere that you'd miss by just reading an isolated segment.
(We are literally arguing between when Xavier decided to open a school and when he actually did.)
We are literally arguing about maintaining established continuity via creative reading of an issue that already contains several errors, or inserting lengthy rationales into characters' backstories, that won't exist anywhere except on this message board, in order to maintain the integrity of a single page in an issue that already contains several errors.


I think that's the crux of it right there. I read that issue, and spotted errors, including the timeframe Xavier founded the school. I figured out creative ways to re-interpret them to make the comic mesh with the established canon.

You read that issue, and spotted errors, including the timeframe Xavier founded the school. And although you're fine with waving away all the OTHER errors, for some reason you're hellbent on treating THIS error as a "new fact" that mandates rewriting some of Xavier's backstory.

It's just a damn error. Just like Magneto's intention to "form a Brotherhood", which we handwaved away. Just like Wolverine volunteering to join Weapon X, which we handwaved away. Just like Xavier talking to someone who's most likely meant to be his father, which we handwaved away. Just like the mansion resembling the Cassaday version, which we handwaved away.

We handwaved them all away because they didn't fit the established canon. Why can't we handwave away the one OTHER thing that doesn't fit the established canon?

After all: YOU CAN'T SEE HIS @#$%^& LEGS.

-Jeph!

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Re: First X-Men #1-5

Post by Jason Doty » Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:02 pm

Since you think I'm using some form of debate tactic. I'd like to point out, you seem to use one of your own by picking apart my post sentence by sentence, word by word, which seems to be your tactic of debate. At the end of the day. You've admitted to re-interpreting a scene to fit your opinion because of the multiple errors already in it and your belief about when Xavier came up with the "idea" of the school. My suggestion is to place it where I believe the most evidence in the scene dictates with no re-interpreting, no back story, just what is shown on the page as is.

I mean really, at the end of the day, what is the series about? A previously unknown tale where Wolverine and Sabretooth band together mutants to protect them from a common threat, which gets noticed by Professor X and Magneto.

I'm not arguing when the school was officially opened, just that new information (This series) places Xavier's idea for it while he was in the military, rather than where "all of the comics", which I've yet to find one to support you're opinion, of when he came up with the "idea" of it.

Facts of the scene.

Xavier in his military uniform, is talking to someone, who is familiar with his family, and appears to me to be talking at eye level. Xavier himself plants a sign in the ground about a school he wants to open. We do not see Xavier's legs, we do not see a wheel chair, he is shown from the torso up and the Xavier mansion looks like the one from Astonishing. (This is what I see) and have asked to be scanned, so others can know with certainty that I'm not adding or making anything up.

I contend that the more important elements of the scene, is that Xavier "appears" to be standing by the level at which he is talking. He is in military uniform and his actions are based on a recent adventure that he was just shown in, which in my view, precluding this scene from being placed this at a time when he is crippled.

I believe that Jeph! and Fury believe he is talking with his father (error), he can't be. The mansion is shown incorrectly (error). and this scene goes against all established history of when Xavier came up with the "idea" of devoting his resources into building a school. Let me know if this statement is untrue or how I've described the scene above. I don't want to misrepresent your side.

I could not find evidence to your view in the in UX 309 (the opposite actually) or the UX back-ups for Cyclops of when he came up with the "idea" of the school. Anywhere else you want me to look? I also want to see the best placement.

I'm not going to debate you anymore. I think we are both firmly set in our opinions and Fury sides with you. Lets sit back and see what others think for a while.

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