New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

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New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:30 am

Bendis strikes again. After screwing around with chronology for the entirety of the Mighty Avengers run and the post-CW New Avengers, he has administered the coup de gras with New Avengers Annual #2. This is just royally messed up.

Bendis provides strong evidence that NA@ 2 occurs after World War Hulk. The references to Strange's hands being damaged in WWH and his inability to help Banner, along with the whole black magic plotline support a placement after WWH. Not only that, but NA@ 2 ends with a new status quo for Strange and the Sanctum Sanctorum which forces placement after not only WWH, but also the appearances of Strange and the boarded up Starbucks Sanctum seen in W3 58 and NX 41 (which occurs shortly before Messiah Complex). And it has to occur long enough after WWH for Avengers Tower to be rebuilt, complete with Watchtower spires! Hrmmm.

Two major problems:

1) In the midst of One More Day, in FNSM 24, Spider-Man (back in classic costume) visits the boarded-up Starbucks Sanctum and asks Strange for help. One More Day must occur after NA@ 2, in which Spidey appears in his black costume and without his mask. So what on earth is happening here??

2) NA@ 2 is part of a multi-faceted crossover story that covers MA 1-9 and A4 27-37 -- a story in which the Mighty Avengers are supposed to have just formed. But this whole story can't occur after WWH, because the Mighty Avengers were already formed before WWH and had appeared in such stories as Fallen Son.

My first inclination is to place a gap between pages 18 and 19 of A4 37 and say that it took months for the Hood to spring his incarcerated comrades from the Raft after they were captured. We'd have to come up with a good excuse for the long delay, but I suppose it's doable. This would mean that the Avengers' invasion of Latveria coming in MA 9 would occur long before NA@ 2.

Suggestions?
Paul B.

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by JD » Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:35 am

I started a similar thread just after you, so I'm posting my first thoughts here :

It conflicts a bit with our earlier deductions :
- It continues straight from A4 37 (with the Hood breaking out his sidekicks).
- Dr Strange leaves the New Avengers and goes into seclusion, so it should be after NA:I2 5.
- It's post-WWH, as Dr Strange suffers from the aftereffects of the demon/whatever he invoked back then.
- It's pre-OMD, as Spider-Man is still in his black costume.
- But wait ! There may be a break between pages 4 & 5 : the Hood needs some time to recruit his new army of villains, and on page 5 the New Avengers come back from a battle they won ("for once"), with Echo injured. I'm not sure it's A4 37, because Echo wasn't injured there : maybe it's a slot for WWH & NA:I2 5 to happen ? Or maybe it should fit earlier in the storyline...

(Scanning through WWH quickly again, it seems that it wasn't stated there whether Spider-Woman was registered. Which is fortunate, since she definitely should be by then in my understanding.)

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by JephYork » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:24 am

Well, personally I'm still on the "ignore that MA #1-6 is supposed to occur mere minutes after the team was formed" bandwagon. Create a nice big gap in MA #1 and shovel the Mighty team's appearances in Fallen Son, World War Hulk and New Avengers into it.

"Pull a Cable", as it were. ;)

As for the One More Day conundrum ... well, maybe the "reset" of reality that Mephisto pulled put Peter briefly *back* into his black outfit? Right now his chronology goes:

Back in Black - black costume
OMD - classic costume
BND - hasn't been seen in a long time, finally reappears in classic costume

Maybe during that period of time where Spidey "hasn't been seen", we could say that he was still serving on the New Avengers, but doing so in his black outfit to keep a lower profile? Then he returned to his classic duds when he decided to make his public return in BND?

It's lame, I know, but it would allow NA@2 to occur after OMD...

-Jeph!

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:13 pm

Jeph wrote:
As for the One More Day conundrum ... well, maybe the "reset" of reality that Mephisto pulled put Peter briefly *back* into his black outfit? Right now his chronology goes:
Back in Black - black costume
OMD - classic costume
BND - hasn't been seen in a long time, finally reappears in classic costume
Maybe during that period of time where Spidey "hasn't been seen", we could say that he was still serving on the New Avengers, but doing so in his black outfit to keep a lower profile? Then he returned to his classic duds when he decided to make his public return in BND?
That...doesn't work. Spidey is shown without his mask on in NA@ 2, so it must be before One More Day, or at least before the conclusion of One More Day. Maybe we need to insert a gap between the time Spidey leaves the Sanctum in FNSM 24 and his encounter with the Mephisto-sent daughter-that-could've-been in that same issue. In that gap, we'd have to wedge NA@ 2, with Spidey returning to his black costume and interrupting his desperate quest for a cure for May. Not a great solution by any means, but probably better than restoring the Sanctum and returning Strange to it after NA@ 2. I have a feeling Strange's self-imposed exile will factor into Secret Invasion.

Jeph wrote:
Well, personally I'm still on the "ignore that MA #1-6 is supposed to occur mere minutes after the team was formed" bandwagon. Create a nice big gap in MA #1 and shovel the Mighty team's appearances in Fallen Son, World War Hulk and New Avengers into it.
Yes, there still needs to be a gap between the formation of the Mighty Avengers and the Ultron battle, but that still doesn't help us with the latest NA@ 2 mess-up. There needs to be a gap between the Ultron battle/Skrull discovery/Symbiote attack and NA@ 2, with World War Hulk and a number of post-WWH events occurring in the gap. If nothing else, Irredeemable Ant-Man establishes the fact that the Ultron battle occurs before WWH -- IAM crosses over with the Ultron battle in issue #7 and with WWH in issue #10.

JD wrote:
But wait ! There may be a break between pages 4 & 5 : the Hood needs some time to recruit his new army of villains, and on page 5 the New Avengers come back from a battle they won ("for once"), with Echo injured. I'm not sure it's A4 37, because Echo wasn't injured there : maybe it's a slot for WWH & NA:I2 5 to happen ? Or maybe it should fit earlier in the storyline...
Well, the Hood has already recruited his army before this, and it seems unlikely for him to hold off on an attack once he discovers where the New Avengers are. It may be better to insert the gap between the arrest of the Wrecking Crew et al and their escape from the Raft. It may have taken that long for the Hood to figure out where the captured villains were. SHIELD may have sent them to Prison 42 first before transferring them to the Raft for questioning. (Could the Hood teleport to the Negative Zone?) They could have sat in stir for a while before Hood found them.

And yes, the gap must include not only WWH and the Aftersmash, but also NA:I2 5, NX 41, and W3 58-59, as Strange appears in those issues. The gap likely is a large one. This is not very desirable for a number of reasons, including the whole delay in dealing with the Skrull invasion that it involves (and about which we've discussed)...but Bendis leaves us with little choice.

One last point: I think the battle from which the New Avengers return on page 5 -- the one in which Echo's arm was injured -- is probably some adventure we haven't seen (yet). I agree it can't be the battle from A4 37.

Man, just how many plot points have we been forced to ignore or explain away with contrived BTS theories in the post-CW Avengers' world? Is continuity really this hard for Bendis or the editorial staff?
Paul B.

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by JephYork » Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:32 pm

Spidey is shown without his mask on in NA@ 2
Oh, right, NOBODY knows who he is anymore -- not even the Avengers. Bah.

-Jeph!

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by JD » Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:20 pm

Paul Bourcier wrote: (Could the Hood teleport to the Negative Zone?)
IIRC, the Hood can't teleport : he can just become invisible and fly around a bit.

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by milamber » Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:35 pm

Paul Bourcier wrote:Yes, there still needs to be a gap between the formation of the Mighty Avengers and the Ultron battle, but that still doesn't help us with the latest NA@ 2 mess-up. There needs to be a gap between the Ultron battle/Skrull discovery/Symbiote attack and NA@ 2, with World War Hulk and a number of post-WWH events occurring in the gap. If nothing else, Irredeemable Ant-Man establishes the fact that the Ultron battle occurs before WWH -- IAM crosses over with the Ultron battle in issue #7 and with WWH in issue #10.
I liked the idea that WWH fits in the gap in between the formation of the MA and the battle with Ultron (a gap which has to be waay longer than a few minutes) , or perhaps even between CW and the formation of the Mighty Avengers.
I have been re-readng my WWH comics, and I haven't found a single reference to the Mighty Avengers existing as a team during the war.
I also do not follow IAM. Is there any way IAM #7 can be linked to other battle instead of the Ultron from the MA one?

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Somebody » Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:55 pm

milamber wrote:I also do not follow IAM. Is there any way IAM #7 can be linked to other battle instead of the Ultron from the MA one?
He enters the arena clinging to Warbird's sash. And they actually repeat pages and dialogue from MA 1.

So, no.

PS: Weren't there preview pages released from Bachalo's BND issues involving the New Avengers, in the Sanctum, with Strange front & center?

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:02 pm

Somebody wrote:Weren't there preview pages released from Bachalo's BND issues involving the New Avengers, in the Sanctum, with Strange front & center?
I don't recall if they were in the Sanctum, but yes. Spider-Man is still with the New Avengers post-OMD, in his classic costume, and Strange & Wolverine were both in those pages.

With all of the weather this week, I wasn't able to make it to the shop to get this week's books. Once I get my hands on a copy of this annual I'll see if I can chip in my two cents.
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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Marvologist » Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:22 pm

Don't forget we also need to fit SILENT WAR into the gap after the Mighty Avengers formation, which we know was the month before World War Hulk (SILENT WAR, that is), though not necessarily the same as one month before. And World War Hulk gives us a reason for why the Hood's attack was delayed by a couple of weeks minimum to three weeks that would also fit in the current Dr. Doom story in MIGHTY AVENGERS, The Death of a Dream Act I in CAPTAIN AMERICA (where I place the break in the current Captain America storyline for the rest of the events in my list to fall before Tony Stark is seen on the news discussing the recent formation of the Mighty Avengers (I can't recall the issue number offhand, but I'll check later; this is also based on Ed Brubaker's response to being asked about World War Hulk specifically on Newsarama where he said there are several breaks in time during the Death of a Dream storyline to fit other events), SILENT WAR, WORLD WAR HULK, SUB-MARINER, ILLUMINATI v2 5, then NEW AVENGERS ANNUAL 2.

So yes, that does leave the current Mighty Avengers story far behind until I guess it catches up by April for SECRET INVASION.

But none of this helps One More Day. I think we need one more day from Dr. Strange to be around because after Strange said he couldn't help him a dejected Spider-Man went to sit outside and then saw his potential daughter. Was that not right outside Dr. Strange's house? Or am I misremembering things?

That Wolverine story is problematic. Do we ignore the statement by Dr. Strange that Wolverine was dead, or brain dead, for close to two months?
I want to know everything.

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:45 pm

:shock:
I totaly missed that when I reviewed those Wolverine issues. But there it is in 58, Dr. Strange tells Wolverine in the astral plane that it's been about a month since he ate a bomb last issue. And here I put those two issues on the same day...

Good catch, Marvologist!
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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Somebody » Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:52 pm

There's no way that can stand, surely - it's frakking WOLVERINE, the guest-appearance whore of the MU (And didn't the fill-in issue immediately before the "Logan dies" arc also incapacitate Wolverine for an extended period of time?) A week maybe - some seriously abnormal-but-not-that-long period of time.

And Jeph - Ant-Man #7 also includes dialogue to the effect that it's the Mighty Avs' first "formal meeting". I can buy that their appearance in post-CW New Avs which absolutely must take place before is black, anti-leak, off-the-books stuff that the SHIELD agent Danvers is talking to might not be cleared to know - but trying to shove their public appearances in Silent War & WWH in there is really pushing it.

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Paul Bourcier » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:06 am

Col_Fury wrote:
I don't recall if they were in the Sanctum, but yes. Spider-Man is still with the New Avengers post-OMD, in his classic costume, and Strange & Wolverine were both in those pages.
If we're suggesting that NA@ 2 occurs after OMD, then I guess Peter's identity gets revealed again when he carelessly removes the mask of the black costume he shouldn't be wearing in NA@ 2. Ugh. *brickwall*


Col Fury wrote:
I totaly missed that when I reviewed those Wolverine issues. But there it is in 58, Dr. Strange tells Wolverine in the astral plane that it's been about a month since he ate a bomb last issue
Maybe it's a month in the astral plane?? Those huge passages of time in W3 are just not going to work. "Pulling a Cable" may be necessary here when all is said and done. :roll:




Any clue about the placement of NA@ 2 relative to Messiah Complex?
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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Paul Bourcier » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:09 am

Somebody wrote:
it's frakking WOLVERINE, the guest-appearance whore of the MU
No, these days that would be Tony Stark.
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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Somebody » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:55 am

Paul Bourcier wrote:If we're suggesting that NA@ 2 occurs after OMD, then I guess Peter's identity gets revealed again when he carelessly removes the mask of the black costume he shouldn't be wearing in NA@ 2. Ugh. *brickwall*
I think that if the black costume is an error, the mask coming off must also be an error. Negate one, negate both.

Of course, not that Spider-Man IV being on the Skrull-paranoid New Avengers makes sense if he's not even prepared to give them his ID...
Paul Bourcier wrote:
Somebody wrote:it's frakking WOLVERINE, the guest-appearance whore of the MU
No, these days that would be Tony Stark.
Okay, the second-greatest whore then :)

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