Venom BTS question

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Venom BTS question

Post by tobyoryamcha » Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:49 am

Hi just to add to this as i couldnt find a stand alone venom thread elsewhere does anyone know why Venom (i think that means symbiote not Eddie) is listed as having a BTS appearence in:

SUB-M2 3-BTS
M/GN 17-BTS

I now own both of these and cannot find any reference on appearence of them, is anyone who owns these able to clarify for me? Did I miss something or is their inclusion an error.

Btw I have linked to MCP on my Symbiote website.

thanks, Toby
Last edited by Somebody on Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Split from a thread in Chat because it's best suited to the MU forum, and to a thread of its own

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Re: Venom BTS question

Post by Col_Fury » Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:58 pm

tobyoryamcha wrote:Venom (i think that means symbiote not Eddie)
You're right. Eddie has a separate chronology.

As for SUB-M2 3 & M/GN 17, from Secret Wars up to about Web of Spider-Man 1 the symbiote's & Spider-Man's chronologies match up with a couple of exceptions. Since Spider-Man appears in both SUB-M2 3 & M/GN 17, my guess without checking the books is that the costume he's wearing IS the symbiote, but it's just not mentioned in the comics. I'm pretty sure that's the case here, as it's given a BTS for each issue, but I could be wrong.
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Re: Venom BTS question

Post by tobyoryamcha » Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:25 am

yeh thats what it normally means but spidey is wearing the red and blues in MGN17 thats what confuses me, just wondering if someone had figured something I didnt.

I solved the Namor Problem though you people and the spiderfan people but his 4 issue mini which never was gonna be an ongoing as a Namor (insert words before namor in heading) and volumed it. I dont do that in my own filing, mystery solved anyway.

Still cant suss how venom OR the symbiote with or without spidey appears in any capacity in MGN17 return of the living monolith but oh well.

Thanks for the help so far.

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Re: Venom BTS question

Post by Somebody » Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:56 am

Yes, the MCP counts minis in the volume numbering, even before you get into the strange case of Silver Surfer v2 (a one-shot).

As for MGN 17 - remember that, by definition, a BTS character doesn't appear on-panel. It could well be that a later issue retconned Venom into the events of the GN somewhere, in which case there would obviously be no indication of anything Venom-related in MGN 17.

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Re: Venom BTS question

Post by Russ Chappell » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:48 pm

tobyoryamcha wrote:I solved the Namor Problem though you people and the spiderfan people but his 4 issue mini which never was gonna be an ongoing as a Namor (insert words before namor in heading) and volumed it. I dont do that in my own filing, mystery solved anyway.
Where do you put the 4 issue mini in your filing?

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Re: Venom BTS question

Post by cweed4 » Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:37 pm

Col_Fury wrote:As for SUB-M2 3 & M/GN 17, from Secret Wars up to about Web of Spider-Man 1 the symbiote's & Spider-Man's chronologies match up with a couple of exceptions. Since Spider-Man appears in both SUB-M2 3 & M/GN 17, my guess without checking the books is that the costume he's wearing IS the symbiote, but it's just not mentioned in the comics. I'm pretty sure that's the case here, as it's given a BTS for each issue, but I could be wrong.
I don't have SUB-M2 but if the Venom listing is correct based on Peter being in the symbiote costume then the placement in Spidey's chronology would be an error. Currently it is listed as:
ASM 258
ASM 259
SUB-M2 3
PPTSS 96

But, in ASM 258 Peter ditches the symbiote (when Reed discovers it IS a symbiote) and goes back to the red+blues in ASM 259.

As for M/GN 17, it has a double entry for Spidey. One is pre-258 and one is post-258. Again, it is a book I don't have :? But, its placement could be troublesome if he is wearing the classic costume throughout. All of his other appearances between M/SHSW 12 and ASM 258 have him in the symbiote costume. This could be explained away but it is a curious difference.




As a side note I did compare the 2 chronologies for this time period and noticed a few discrepancies. Haven't had a chance to check them out yet but I might as well list them here for now.

VENOM :
PPTSS 91-BTS
M/TU 141-BTS
PPTSS 91-BTS
ASM 253-BTS
...
PPTSS@ 4-BTS
PPTSS@ 4/2-BTS
M/TU 146-BTS
...
PPTSS 98
ASM 260
FF 274 ~ ASM 261
...


SPIDEY
M/TU 141
PPTSS 91 (1 - 7)
ASM 253
PPTSS 91 (8 - 22)
...
M/TU 146
PPTSS@ 4
PPTSS@ 4/2
...
ASM 260
ASM 261
PPTSS 98


And the biggest one of all-

VENOM: (post-258)
ASM 259
*S-H2 29*
ASM 259

SPIDEY: (pre-SW)
ASM 245
S-H2 30-BTS
*S-H2 29*
ASM 245

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Re: Venom BTS question

Post by tobyoryamcha » Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:21 am

Sorry admin I wasnt criticizing I was just saying why I couldnt find it based on your system on ebay or anything.
to answer your question which may have been rhetorical I put my books by charcter then chronological.
I always counted ongoings even cancelled ones as volumes, So i'd have Namor Volume 1, namor mini,Namor volume 2. on my shelf for example but you guys know better I was just saying why i got confused.

So back to the point I understand that BTS doesnt have to mean on panel. But this leaves 3 possibilities then I think.

1. (using the above logic) In a later comic the symbiote or venom or something says "I was watching you when the monolith was smashing down NY"
2. It was published at a time when in the core titles Spidey was wearing the symbiote.
(a) He used the symibotes abilities to mimic the red and blues perhaps 'for a change' or to not confuse Cap-A (god rest him) and She-Hulk as to who he was.
(b) Artist error
(c) It was done on purpose, In which case it needs moving forward or back in the chrolongy to fit.
3. Human error on the MCP's part

I dont mind I'd just like the solve the mystery out of curiosity and know whether to put it in "Must own every Symbiote App" Box

Thanks for all the brainstorming so far, -Toby

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Re: Venom BTS question

Post by Russ Chappell » Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:22 am

tobyoryamcha wrote:Sorry admin I wasnt criticizing I was just saying why I couldnt find it based on your system on ebay or anything.
to answer your question which may have been rhetorical I put my books by charcter then chronological.
I always counted ongoings even cancelled ones as volumes, So i'd have Namor Volume 1, namor mini,Namor volume 2. on my shelf for example but you guys know better I was just saying why i got confused.
No, no...I didn't think of your comments as critical, nor was my question rhetorical. I was honestly curious as to how your filing system worked. Inherent in that was "what name do you give to the title we call "Sub-Mariner vol. 2"? If I'm reading you right, your answer would be "Namor mini."

Which is fine. But that can lead to some rather odd interpretations, too. Take Nightcrawler, who had a mini-series in the eighties, then a second mini-series in the nineties, followed by a twelve-issue run this decade. How would you refer to these three titles?

And again, I'm not trying to be argumentative, or make a point; you've found something that works for you. I'm just curious about how your system works.

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Re: Venom BTS question

Post by tobyoryamcha » Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:33 am

Well i think its due to the fact that my collection is probably small compared to you guys, also most of mine are on book shelves not boxes. I only collect a few characters.

I put them in chronological order usally same as release date. so in the the example you mentioned id have the characters volume 1 comics lined up on shelf or box then the mini 1 then vol2 then mini 2 all in order of chronlogy.

The labels sticking out are char names i dont have a tab for each of their runs. or book.

For example i have a wolverine section and then in order from there. but i dont have tabs seperating the individual wolvie titles.

Again i think its because my collection is smaller.

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Re: Venom BTS question

Post by tobyoryamcha » Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:55 am

Okay looking at spideys chronology page it appears all of his apps surroning MGN17 were with symbiote. So i asume you guys placed it there in stead of furhter forward or back is presumably due to the other characters involved making it so.

Therefore this leaves us with two theories.

Error on marvels part. artist error didnt draw right costume.

He was wearing it and either chose for it to take the form of red and blues or we just have to pretend he was wearing it because it was an artists error.
So I have come to the conclusion that he was wearing it and its just a never-to-be-solved mystery why he chose to be in red and blues that day.

As there is no mention of "my suit from the secret wars" or on the other side his mechanical web shooters, it leaves us to have to choose for ourselves what we belive is best explanation.

Either hes wearing the black suit in camo mode in black in spite of artist error or its a couple of blocks away waiting at his home.

Im going to close this case and shove it in my symbiote/venom box anyway.

thanks for all the help

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Re: Venom BTS question

Post by cweed4 » Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:59 am

I looked at the discrepanices in the Venom/Spidey listings. The only one that is correct is the S-H2 29 entry. (It involves some wierd time-warping thing that I'm not going to try and figure out.) The rest of the entries are (as Col Fury described) BTS appearances by Venom as Spidey's costume. They do not have any other separate adventures in these issues. So-

Venom:
ASM 252-BTS
PPTSS 90-BTS
M/TU 141-BTS
PPTSS 91 (1 - 7)-BTS
ASM 253-BTS
PPTSS 91 (8 - 22)-BTS

H2 300-BTS
ASM 254-BTS
PPTSS 92-BTS
M/TU 142-BTS
M/TU 143-BTS
ASM 255-BTS
PPTSS 93-BTS
M/TU 144-BTS
M/GN 17-BTS
PPTSS 94-BTS
PPTSS 95-BTS
M/TU 145-BTS
ASM 256-BTS
VSS 1/2-FB
ASM 256-BTS
ASM 257-BTS
{ASM 258}
M/TU 146-BTS
PPTSS@ 4-BTS
PPTSS@ 4/2-BTS

ASM 258
ASM 259
S-H2 29
ASM 259
*removed* (SUB-M2 3-BTS)
PPTSS 97
M/TU 148
PPTSS 98
ASM 260
FF 274 ~ ASM 261
PPTSS 99

Unless SUB-M2 3 gets moved prior to ASM 258 it should not be listed for Venom. The M/GN 17-BTS listing stays w/ the unusual note of depicting Spidey in his red+blues. The final discrepancy (involving ASM 260/ASM 261/PPTSS 98) I have left as is for Venom. At that point the 2 have been separated. But, the ordering for Venom jives with my chronology for Spidey at that point. Hopefully, I will get around to making a detailed thread for that suggested Spidey change at some point.

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Re: Venom BTS question

Post by cweed4 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:42 pm

I finally found a copy of the Sub-Mariner 3 issue in question. The Spidey appearance is a single panel w/Peter walking on the street. In order to let the readers know who this average joe is, Marvel super-imposed the image of Spidey's face in the sky above him. The mask depicted is clearly from the black costume. So, the issue should be moved up slightly to between ASM 257 and ASM 258 for both Peter and Venom (while keeping it as a BTS for the latter.)

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Re: Venom BTS question

Post by Ork » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:23 pm

Can someone confirm (or tell me I'm wrong) that Venom does not appear in M/SHSW 7?
I've just re-read it and I don't see where it could be.

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Re: Venom BTS question

Post by cweed4 » Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:18 am

Checked my copy and I don't see it either. Unless a subsequent Venom story (PPTSS2 4-FB perhaps?) retroactively placed him into a scene there it seems like just an error.

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