Spider-Man: Blue

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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Spider-Man: Blue

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:28 am

Could someone remind me what the decision was on Spider-Man: Blue?

Did we decide that

1) the present day stuff happened, but Peter misremembered all the flashbacks?

Or

2) that the whole thing didn't wash?

I *THINK* it was 1)...
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Re: Spider-Man: Blue

Post by JephYork » Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:13 am

I think it was #1 too.

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Re: Spider-Man: Blue

Post by Antonio Gaviño » Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:10 pm

That's right, the present day stuff happened, but Peter misremembered all the flashbacks, there's pretty much nothing that can be saved from them.

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Re: Spider-Man: Blue

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:08 pm

Thanks, folks! :mrgreen:
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Re: Spider-Man: Blue

Post by cweed4 » Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:41 pm

Col_Fury wrote:I *THINK* it was 1)...
I would agree with that.

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Re: Spider-Man: Blue

Post by Starman » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:23 am

Col_Fury wrote:I *THINK* it was 1)...
That's how I also remember it, but I could be wrong. Has anyone checked the archives?
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Re: Spider-Man: Blue

Post by Leoparis » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:15 pm

I like this series so much that I'm going to take up the challenge.
First I take it that the memories are faulty so that there are conflation of events, dropped events, events swapped, etc)
When I see a recognizable event, I just take it to be the same as the original, no matter the visual differences.

Spider-Man Blue
#1
p1-5 present time (2002), Spidey puts a rose on the Brooklyn Bridge on Valentine's Day
p6-15 = ASM #40 pages 1-18 (fight vs Goblin)
p16-17 Peter, JJJ, Joe Robertson (before his first appearance in ASM #51)
p18-19 Peter meets Harry and Norman in the hospital (both last in ASM #40), then Flash and Gwen (both last in ASM #39)
p20 Peter Parker, May Parker = ASM #41 page 10
p21-23 Peter Parker buys a motorbike and presents it to the gang, same as ASM #41 page 19-20 pn 1-2
p24 MJ and May (occurs between ASM #41 and #42)

#2
p1-3 Spider-Man reads newspaper about Goblin
p4 Kraven (last in ASM #34)
p5-7 Peter, Flash, Gwen, Pr Warren in class (=ASM 42 between page 8 and 9)
p8 Kraven, Rhino (last in ASM #42)
p9 JJJ, Betty Brant, Peter Parker, Joe Robertson (=ASM #43 page 2 and/or 14)
p10-13 fight vs Rhino = ASM #43 pages 7-12
p14-15 Spidey and Dr Connors = ASM #43 page 15
p16-19 Spidey beats Rhino = ASM #43 pages 18-19, Kraven looking at the scene
p20-22 May, Peter meets MJ = ASM #42 page 20

#3
p1-6 Peter introduces MJ to Flash, Gwen, Harry. (=ASM #44, pages 10-11)
p7-10 TV announces a search for the Lizard at Penn Station. Pete and MJ ride there (mirroring ASM #43 pages 3-4,6 when Pete and MJ react to the TV announcing the rampage of the Rhino)
p11 Spidey meets Martha and Billy Connors (= ASM #44, page 6)
p12-15 Spidey fights Lizard, Kraven helps Lizard escape (=ASM #44 pages 14-18)
p16 Peter joins MJ outside the station (mirrors ASM #43, p 14)
p17-20 Spidey subdues Lizard, Dr Connors reunited with family (=ASM #45 page 4,7-19)
p21-22 Peter goes home at night, meets Harry asking him to be his roommate (mirroring ASM #46 page 6 but must happen page 19)

#4
p1-6 Peter asks May if he can move in with Harry (=ASM #46 page 10 but must happen on page 19)
p7-8 Vulture and Blackie Drago in prison (=ASM #48 page 3)
p9-10 Peter brings May to Anna Watson (=ASM #46 p10 or 19-20), MJ goes out and leaves in car with Harry
p11-12 Drago escapes prison (with Kraven's help) and recovers Vulture's costume (= ASM #48 pages 5-6)
p13-14 Gwen, Flash, MJ and Harry have a housewarming party
p15-17 New Vulture fights Spidey (=ASM #48 pages 12-18)
p18 Gwen, Flash, MJ and Harry at the housewarming party
p19-22 Spidey defeated by new Vulture (=ASM #48 pages 19-20)

#5
p1-4 Harry shows the apartment to Peter (mirroring ASM #46 page 20) who, sick, goes to bed (mirroring ASM #49 page 3)
p5 Kraven finds Spidey's tracks in the snow
p6 Kraven cures the Vulture (Toomes) so he can do what Drago couldn't
p7-11 MJ and Gwen tend to the sick Peter while Flash and Harry play billiards (between pages 9 and 10 of #49)
p12-15 Spidey joins the battle between the two Vultures (their battle reflects the battle between the two Vultures in ASM #63 and the battle between Kraven and Drago in ASM #49)
p16-18 He saves Flash
p19-20 Spidey beats the two Vultures
p21-22 Peter joins the others in the apartment. Flash announces he joined the army (he was drafted in ASM #43 page 20). Kraven looks from outside.

#6
p1-4 Kraven reviews the fights Spider-Man had vs his enemies
p5-9 Peter and Harry receive guests Gwen, MJ, Flash and other students for a party.
p10-17 Kraven bursts in and kidnaps Harry, Spidey beats him under Norman's eyes (=ASM #47 pages 11-19, the defeat of Kraven at the hands of Spidey is from ASM #49 page 19)
p18-19 Peter and Gwen make out
p20-22 Peter completes his recording, MJ joins him (in the present)
Last edited by Leoparis on Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Spider-Man: Blue

Post by Leoparis » Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:20 am

So an index for the individual issues would look like this:

#1
Spider-Man (from SM: Quality of Life #4 '02, also concurrent with ASM #40-41 '66)

J. Jonah Jameson (between ASM #40 and #41 '66)
Joe Robertson (from ASM Annual #37/2 '09)
Harry Osborn (from ASM #40 and concurrent with ASM #41 '66)
Norman Osborn (between ASM #40 '66 and #47 '67)
Flash Thompson (from ASM #39 '66 and concurrent with ASM #41 '66)
Gwen Stacy (from ASM #39 '66 and concurrent with ASM #41 '66)
May Parker (concurrent with ASM #41 '66)
Mary Jane Watson (from ASM #38 '66)

Villain: Green Goblin (concurrent with and continuing from ASM #40 '66; next in ASM #47 '67)

Note: this issue includes memories (reminder flashbacks) of
- ASM #40 (fight with the Green Goblin),
- ASM #41 (Peter tells May he wants to buy a motorbike; he buys it and presents it to the gang).

It shows the following new scenes (plain flashbacks):
- Peter sells photos to JJJ and meets Robbie (between ASM #40 and #41).
- Peter visits Harry and Norman at the hospital and meets Flash and Gwen there (between #ASM 40 and #41).
- MJ comes looking for Peter but May tells her he isn't there.

#2
Spider-Man (from ASM #41; concurrent with ASM #42 and #43 '66)

Gwen Stacy (concurrent with ASM #42 '66)
Flash Thompson (concurrent with ASM #42 '66)
Pr Warren (between ASM #39 '66 and #48 '67)
Jonah Jameson (concurrent with ASM #43 '66)
Joe Robertson (next in ASM #51 '67)
Betty Brant (concurrent with ASM #43 '66)
Curt Connors (concurrent with ASM #43 '66)
May Parker (concurrent with ASM #42 '66)
Mary Jane Watson (concurrent with ASM #42 '66)

Villains: Kraven (from ASM #34 '66)
Rhino (concurrent with ASM #43 '66)

Note: this issue shows memories (rfb) of
- ASM #43 (fights Rhino then defeats him after getting help from Dr Connors)
- ASM #42 (Peter meets MJ for dinner).
These two previous events are chronologically inverted in his recollection.

New scenes (fb):
- Spidey reads newspaper in newsstand about Green Goblin's death and is watched by Kraven (this must be in the evening of the first fight vs Rhino).
- Peter with Gwen and Flash in Pr Warren's class.

#3
Spider-Man (concurrent with ASM #43-46 '67)

Mary-Jane Watson (concurrent with ASM #43 '66 and #44 '67)
Flash Thompson (concurrent with ASM #44 '67)
Harry Osborn (concurrent with ASM #44-46 '67)
Gwen Stacy (concurrent with ASM #44 '67)
May Parker (concurrent with ASM #46 '67)

Lizard (concurrent with ASM #44-45 '67)
Kraven

Martha Connors and Billy Connors (concurrent with ASM #44-45 '67)
ESU students

Note: This issue shows memories (rfb) of
- ASM #44 (introducing MJ to the gang; meeting Martha and Billy Connors at Penn Station; fighting the Lizard in the underground),
- ASM #43 (Peter and MJ learn of a super-villain rampage, go there by bike, Peter changes into Spider-Man, reunites with MJ after battle; this actually happened with the Rhino but here Peter misremembers it as happening with the Lizard),
- ASM #46 (Harry asks Peter to be his roommate; originally asked Peter while driving him in his car; this is either a previous or a later talk about it),
- ASM #45 (The Lizard smashes his lab, Spidey subdues the Lizard and Connors is reunited with his family).

New scenes (fb):
- Kraven helps the Lizard escape.
- Harry has a talk at night with Peter (that cannot be when he asks him first to be his roommate, it's probably when Harry asked Peter to confirm between panels 2 and 3 page 19 of ASM #46)

#4
Spider-Man (concurrent with ASM #46 and #48 '67)

May Parker (concurrent with ASM #46 '67)
Anna Watson (concurrent with ASM #46 '67)
Harry Osborn (concurrent with ASM #46 and #48-49 '67)
Gwen Stacy (concurrent with ASM #46 and #48-49 '67)
Flash Thompson (concurrent with ASM #46 '67)
Mary Jane Watson (concurrent with ASM #46 and #48-49 '67)

Vulture (concurrent with ASM #48 '67)
Blackie Drago (concurrent with ASM #48 '67)
Kraven

Note: This issue shows memories (rfb) of
- ASM #46 (Peter and May have a talk about moving out; originally this happens at the train station when May comes back from Florida),
- ASM #48 (Blackie Drago gets the secret place of the Vulture's costume; beats Spidey).

New scene (fb): Harry, Flash, MJ and Gwen have a housewarming party at Harry's apartment (new but similar to partying scenes in #46, #47 and #49; Flash had already left for the army when Drago fought Spidey; the fight with Drago occurred after Kraven had kidnapped Harry at Flash's leaving party; between pages 19 and 20 of ASM #46)

#5
Spider-Man (concurrent with ASM #46 and #49 '67)

Harry Osborn (concurrent with ASM #46 and #49 '67)
Mary Jane Watson (concurrent with ASM #46 and #49 '67)
Gwen Stacy (concurrent with ASM #46 and #49 '67)
Flash Thompson (concurrent with ASM #46 '67)

Kraven (concurrent with ASM #49 '67)
Vulture (from ASM #48 '67)
Blackie Drago (concurrent with ASM #49 '67 and #63 '68)

Note: This issue shows memories (rfb) of
- ASM #46 (Harry shows the apartment to Peter; originally this occurred before the fights with Kraven and Drago),
- ASM #49 (Peter sick, goes to bed; MJ, Harry and Gwen partying while Peter is in bed; Spider-Man fights the new Vulture and another super-villain; originally Flash had already left for the army; actually Mary Jane Watson and Gwen came to see Harry to go out with him while Peter was in bed),
- ASM #63 (the two vultures fight; this actually happened much later but Peter confuses it with the Kraven/Drago fight),
- ASM #44 (Flash is going to join the army; this originally happened much earlier and cannot have been a result of Spidey fighting Drago).

New scenes (fb):
- Flash and Harry play billiards,
- Spidey saves Flash's life (both must have happened before ASM #47)

#6
Spider-Man (next in ASM #43 '02; also in flashback concurrent with ASM #47 and #49 '67)

Harry Osborn (concurrent with ASM #47 '67)
Gwen Stacy (concurrent with ASM #47 '67 and following from it)
Mary Jane Watson (next in ASM #43 '02; also concurrent with ASM #47 and #49 '67)
ESU students

Norman Osborn (concurrent with ASM #47 '67)
Kraven (concurrent with ASM #47 and #49 '67)

Note: This issue shows memories (rfb) of
- ASM #47 (Kraven crashes Flash Thompson's leaving party and kidnaps Harry Osborn)
- ASM #49 (Spidey beats Kraven)

New scene (fb): Gwen and Peter make out (between ASM #47 and #48 '67)
Last edited by Leoparis on Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:41 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Spider-Man: Blue

Post by Paul Bourcier » Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:38 am

Hi, Leoparis.

I'm having a little difficulty in translating your analysis into MCP-style character chronologies. Would you be able to convert your notes into that format? Thanks.
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Re: Spider-Man: Blue

Post by Leoparis » Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:58 am

Spider-Man
ASM 40
SM:Blue 1-FB (16-19)
ASM 41
SM:Blue 2-FB (1-3) (evening of the first fight vs Rhino, the newspaper still features death of Green Goblin)
ASM 42 (1-8) (arrives at school)
SM:Blue 2-FB (5-7) (Peter in class)
ASM 42 (9-20)
...
ASM 46 (1-19 pn 1-2)
SM:Blue 3-FB (21-22)
ASM 46 (19 pn 3)
SM:Blue 4-FB (1-6)
ASM 46 (19 pn4-5)
SM:Blue 4-FB (9-10)
ASM 46 (20)
...
ASM 47
SM:Blue 6 (18-19)
ASM 48
...
ASM 49 (1-9)
SM:Blue 5 (7-11)
ASM 49 (10-20)
...
SM: QOL 4
SM: Blue 1 (1-5) (deposits a rose on Brooklyn Bridge)
SM: Blue 6 (completes his recording)
ASM 44/485


Mary-Jane Watson
ASM 38
SM:PL (37) (arrives in NY)
SM:Blue 1-FB (tries to meet Peter)
SM: PL (38) (leaves her NY apartment to go to the dinner with the Parkers)
...
ASM 46
SM:Blue 4-FB
ASM 47
...
ASM 49 (1-9)
SM:Blue 5 (7-11)
ASM 49 (10-20)
...
ASM 43/484
SM: Blue 6 (joins Peter)
ASM 44/485

J. Jonah Jameson
ASM 40
SM: Blue 1-FB (16-17) (buys photos from Goblin fight)
ASM 41

Joe Robertson
ASM@ 37/2
SM: Blue 1-FB (16-17) (buys photos from Goblin fight)
SM: Blue 2-FB (informs his staff Rhino has escaped)
ASM 51

Harry Osborn
ASM 40
SM: Blue 1-FB (18-19)
ASM 41
...
ASM 46 (10-11)
SM:Blue 3-FB (21-22)
SM:Blue 4-FB
ASM 46 (20)
...
ASM 49 (1-9)
SM:Blue 5 (7-11)
ASM 49 (10-20)
...

Gwen Stacy
ASM 39
SM: Blue 1-FB (18-19)
ASM 41
ASM 42 (Peter arrives at school)
SM: Blue 2-FB (5-7) (Peter in class)
ASM 43
...
ASM 46
SM:Blue 4 (13-18)
ASM 47
SM:Blue 6 (18-19)
ASM 48
...
ASM 49 (1-9)
SM:Blue 5 (7-11)
ASM 49 (10-20)
...

Flash Thompson
ASM 39
SM: Blue 1-FB (18-19)
ASM 41
ASM 42
SM:Blue 2-FB (5-7)
...
ASM 46
SM:Blue 4 (13-21)
ASM 47

Norman Osborn
ASM 40
SM: Blue 1-FB
ASM 47

May Parker
ASM 41
SM:Blue 1-FB (24)
ASM 42
...
ASM46
SM:Blue 4-FB (1-6)
ASM 46 (19)

Kraven
ASM 34
SM:Blue 2-FB
SM:Blue 3-FB
SM:Blue 4-FB
SM:Blue 5-FB
SM:Blue 6-FB (1-6)
ASM 47

Pr Warren
ASM 39
SM:Blue 2-FB
ASM 48

Vulture
ASM 48
SM:Blue 5-FB (cured from poison by Kraven)
ASM 63

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Re: Spider-Man: Blue

Post by Leoparis » Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:43 am

List of differences between the two narratives

In Blue:
May doesn't leave for vacation
Spidey doesn't have a broken arm
He meets MJ after his second and third with the Rhino
Peter rides with MJ to see the Lizard (#3)
Spidey has one fight with the Lizard (#3)
May overhears when Harry proposes his flat to Peter (#3)
Peter tells May in the morning about Harry's proposal (#4)
Kraven is behind the scenes for Rhino's, Lizard's and Vultures' (Drago, Toomes) attacks (#2-6)
Peter occupies the apartment after fighting Drago (#5)
Spidey has one fight with Kraven (#6)
Drago fights with Toomes (#5)
The two vultures fight (#5)
The first fight with Drago occurs before Kraven's attack at Flash's party (#4)
Flash announces he leaves for the army after Spidey's second fight with Drago (#5)

In ASM:
May leaves for a vacation (#44-46)
Spidey has a broken arm (#44-46)
Peter meets MJ before his second fight with Rhino (#42)
Peter rides with MJ to see the Rhino (#43)
Spidey has two fights with the Lizard (#44-45)
Harry proposes his flat while May is in vacation (#46)
Peter tells May about Harry's proposal when she arrives from vacation (#46)
Peter occupies the apartment before fighting Drago (#46)
Spidey has two fights with Kraven (#47,49)
Drago fights with Kraven (#49)
The two vultures don't fight before ASM #63
The first fight with Drago occurs after Kraven's attack at Flash's party (#48)
Flash announces he leaves for the army after Spidey's third fight with Rhino (#43)

Remaining problems in the chronology of the new sequences:
There are no spots to explain Flash's presence while Peter is sick in bed (ASM #49, Blue #4-5)
Gwen makes out with Peter after Flash's leaving party (ASM #47) but before she tends for him in ASM #48. Two possible solutions: either this occurs after Kraven's defeat in ASM #49, or Harry, Flash, Gwen and MJ crashed Peter's house to party while he had a broken arm and when May was in vacation (#45)

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Re: Spider-Man: Blue

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:21 am

Thanks for all this information, Leoparis. There are a lot of differences to reconcile here. I invite everyone with both the ASM and BLUE issues in question to review Leoparis' chronology and see if both stories make sense together. How much of BLUE can be considered valid and how much should be chalked up to faulty memory?
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Re: Spider-Man: Blue

Post by Leoparis » Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:12 am

No, it isn't necessary to reconcile all these differences I've listed since every time they didn't match, I attributed them to a faulty memory and so they are not included in my chronology listings.

Just to help those who want to review, my approach was the following:
1) identify where the scenes from Blue come from, which are reminder flashbacks (rfb)
2) identify the new scenes, new flashbacks (fb)
3) only add the new scenes to the chronology

Examples:
1) The battle vs the Goblin occurs differently in each series, I just figure it's the same battle (rfb) even if the recollection (Blue) doesn't match the recalled event (ASM);
2) In ASM there are twin battles with Lizard and with Kraven. In Blue these are combined into one, with the end of the second battle attached to the first. I don't consider them new flashbacks, but a shortened, conflated version (rfb);
3) In Blue, MJ and Peter learn about the Lizard's rampage and go there by bike. Peter goes beyond the police line, changes into Spidey and fights Lizard. Then goes back to MJ. But
in ASM, it's Rhino who is rampaging (ASM 43). Rather than figure that Pete went twice with MJ to see a villain, I consider the parts where he goes and leaves with MJ the same and so don't include them as they aren't new information. They are all reminder flashbacks but misremembered in their sequence.


When reading ASM #40-49, one finds repeat battles with the villains and other repeated motifs because it was a monthly series. In Blue, Loeb reorganised the material to avoid repetition and so that it would make a narrative with a beginning and end. He starts with the Goblin fight and finishes with Kraven's defeat (in #49 but using the earlier Kraven fight's circumstances from #47). So Peter getting an apartment becomes a major theme (rather than the one issue affair in ASM #46) as it is a symbol of reaching adulthood along with falling in love with Gwen. Kraven is given as the thread for the villains' attacks (he sets up the villains vs Spidey then attacks himself), including the Vulture (Drago) even though in ASM Kraven fought Spidey (#47) before Drago (#48). This remains entirely possible if we consider the scenes of Drago in prison with Toomes in #48 as flashbacks occurring before ASM #47. One could ask, "Why does Kraven set up the escapes of Drago and Toomes (before #47) to fight Spidey if he then doesnt wait for them to attack Spidey himself?" but ASM Annual '96 provides an answer, this shows Kraven again attacking Harry; i.e. there was an attack vs Harry before Drago attacked Spidey and another one after, and Peter conflated these events just as he conflated many other similar ones in the Blue flashbacks. This later Kraven attack conveniently occurs after Drago's (#48) and the two vultures' (#63), as well as after the reappearance of the Goblin (ca ASM #66) who was thought dead after #40 (Kraven reads the Bugle reporting his death in Blue).

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