Greek Gods myths and marvel contradictions.

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tobyoryamcha
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Greek Gods myths and marvel contradictions.

Post by tobyoryamcha » Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:47 pm

Hey there, I recently downloaded a relatively accurate and relatively comprehensive family tree of the Greek gods, I have been editing it to fit in line with Marvel rendition of the gods but I'm having major problems.

1. Do we assume a Greek god doesn’t exist if we have never seen them in comic form? Or do we assume all Greek gods who have survived by the end of classical myths are still around in some capacity in the MU to this day unless otherwise stated?
2. Does Marvel have generic “Olympians” in the same way it has generic “Asgardians”, because in the myths I haven’t found mention of generic non named god’s, its either the pantheon or nothing it seems.
3. This is the big one: We have the Greek family tree as seen here: http://www.box.net/shared/zvbtqxqua3 Originally the top one was called “Chaos” or “the void” or something but in marvel terms we know all the earthly pantheons come from the demiurge. So I changed that. But the bit I need help reconciling is the bit below where it states that Gaea was just one of five beings. But we know in Marvel that these others can’t exist. Yet their existence is required for some of the further branches of the tree. If we look at my Elder god guide http://www.box.net/shared/yyn5qoasg4 (not self plugging I just don’t know of any others) we can see while Gaea is “the same”, Oshtur left long ago, Set and Chthon have nothing to do with the Greeks as far as I know, and besides which are sealed away, and all the others were eaten by Set and Chthon. So how do we explain Tartarus, Erebus, Eros and Nyx? Their being on the same line as Gaea indicates that they too must be elder gods, but we have just seen looking at the elder god’s history that this can’t be true!

One potential excuse is that they were elder gods who were eaten but first bore their descendants. However this isn’t possible as their descendants would clearly have been caught in the devouring sessions or Demigurge rampages. And even if they were not, none of the Olympians or Titans are allowed to be born until after the Hyborian age anyway as has been previously established. They have to start at the same time as the last Asgardian Ragnorok cycle because otherwise they would have a massive advantage over them and surely would have informed them of their cyclical nature.

Although it’s known the ‘solid’ Greek gods descended from beings which are mostly ‘abstract’ concepts e.g. night and day (which seems impossible in and of itself but we have to roll with it). But in the same way Gaea and all known elder gods by default do also have solid forms (which explains their breeding and which they needed to get eaten by Demigurge) Tartarus and the others must have done as well by being of the same generation as her.

And even if they were now-dead elder gods how would the locations and things they represent still exist without them? We know Tartarus exists as one of the “interfaces of the afterlife” (Cho’s Browser analogy is brilliantly useful in explaining multiple similarly functioning ‘hells’) but how do you have the location of Tartarus without the elder god Tartarus being alive still? So there is no reconciliation here.

In conclusion it seems Gaea’s siblings are needed for even the marvel version of the Greek myths, but to do so inherently contradicts the pre-established elder god stuff. Can anyone help me?

dimadick
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Re: Greek Gods myths and marvel contradictions.

Post by dimadick » Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:18 pm

tobyoryamcha wrote:So how do we explain Tartarus, Erebus, Eros and Nyx? Their being on the same line as Gaea indicates that they too must be elder gods, but we have just seen looking at the elder god’s history that this can’t be true!?
1) "Tartarus originated from Chaos. He is the lowest abyss beneath the earth where all waters originate; all rivers flow into the chasm of Tartarus and flow out of it again. Tartarus is, they say, a gloomy place as far distant from earth as earth is from the sky. For, it is said, a brazen anvil falling down from heaven nine nights and days would reach the earth upon the tenth: and again, a brazen anvil falling from earth nine nights and days would reach Tartarus upon the tenth. Still others say that Tartarus yawns deep under the shades, extending down twice as far as the view upward to Heaven. Tartarus and the Underworld are the realm of Erebus, which is pure Darkness. Tartarus is also a place of punishment. Round it runs a fence of bronze, and night spreads in triple line all about it. Some say that the gates are of iron and the threshold of bronze, and others that there is a threefold wall around it. Around this triple wall flows Pyriphlegethon with its flames and its clashing rocks. The entrance, in which there is an enormous portal has pillars of solid adamant that not even the gods could break. At the top of its tower of iron sits Tisiphone of the Erinyes, with her bloody robe, and sleepless day and night, guards the entrance. Tartarus, who also is a being capable of intercourse, is the father, by Gaia, of Echidna and Typhon (although the latter is also called son of Tartarus and Tartara). Some call him also father of Hecate"

The Marvel version of his kids is somewhat problematic.
*Typhon has several appearances with no mention of his father. See: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/typhonav.htm
*Echidna's geneological tree was mentioned and extensively retconned in the "Mystic Arcana" storyline from 2007. "Echidna is an Olympian monster, daughter of Phorcys and Ceto. Ceto, according to Greek mythology, is a child of Pontus (the Sea God) and Gaea (the Earth Goddess). Phorcys had disputed origins in Greek legend. The Mystic Arcanna retconned him to a son of Set, the Elder God."
*Hecate has been named in spells (by Clea) but never actually depicted. Two beings posing as her have been depicted. One an immortal alien faced by Ms. Marvel, the other the immortal deviant Ereshkigal. Their family lines have not been depicted. See: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/hecate.htm and http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/ereshkgl.htm

2) Erebus means "Darkness". "Erebus is the Darkness of the Underworld, who possibly existed from the beginning together with Chaos, Nyx and Tartarus. Erebus consorted with Nyx, and from this union the Moerae (Fates), the Hesperides, Hypnos, Geras, Thanatos and Styx were born" . His kids have seen varying depictions.

*The Fates/Norns have had several appearances but their parents have never been mentioned. The varying account making them children of Zeus and Themis might be just as accurate. See: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/fates ... sslove.htm
*The Hesperides are important in the legends of Hercules but only briefly mentioned in "Hercules" vol. 3 #1. Then only in connection with Atlas, their father in another mythological account.
*Hypnos, the God of Sleep was only briefly mentioned in "Bizarre Adventures" #32. His kids Morpheus (Gof of Dreams), Phobetor (God of Nightmares) and Phantasus have not realy been depicted.
*Geras (Old Age) has not been depicted.
*Thanatos (Death) was mentioned in "Bizzare Adventures" #32 but not prominently depicted.
*Though the river Styx has been prominently depicted in the Conan tales, the associate goddess has not. Anyway she is mostly listed as an Oceanid in Greek legend. However her kids Kratos and Bia have several Marvel appearances. See: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/kratosbia.htm

3) Eros is Love. "Love has been believed to be identical with the combining force pervading the universe, which causes the attraction of all creatures to a great variety of things, and works in everything existing."The closest equivalent in Marvel lore would be Mistress Love, a cosmic entity. See: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/mistresslove.htm

His children are not prominently depicted either. He is called father to the race of Birds. His mating with Psyche (Soul) reportedly resulted in the birth of Volupta (Pleasure). The Orphic Cult considered him father of Nyx (Night).

4) Nyx has been depicted by Marvel as Nox (Night), lover to Ares and mother of Deimos and Phobos. See: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/nox1.htm

"Black winged Nyx, some say, laid a germless egg in the infinite bosom of Erebus, the Darkness of the Underworld, and after long ages, sprang golden-winged Eros. But others have said that Nyx is the daughter of Eros, whereas others called both of them children of Chaos. Nyx is Night, a powerful goddess whose dark light falls from the stars, and who dictates not only to men but also to gods. Even Zeus does not wish to upset Night: It happened that Hera bribed Hypnos in order to make Zeus fall asleep, so that she could have it her way during the Trojan War. Hypnos obeyed the goddess in spite of his fears; for once he had performed a similar task, and when Zeus woke up in anger, he sought him everywhere, and would have hurled him from heaven into the deep, had Nyx not saved him. For Zeus stopped and thought twice before doing anything that could displease Nyx. Some seem to think that Nyx appears because light is gone as if anything could be and yet do not exist on its own right. But when counting the days, not seldom the nights are mentioned first as when it is said"




Although it’s known the ‘solid’ Greek gods descended from beings which are mostly ‘abstract’ concepts e.g. night and day (which seems impossible in and of itself but we have to roll with it). But in the same way Gaea and all known elder gods by default do also have solid forms (which explains their breeding and which they needed to get eaten by Demigurge) Tartarus and the others must have done as well by being of the same generation as her.

And even if they were now-dead elder gods how would the locations and things they represent still exist without them? We know Tartarus exists as one of the “interfaces of the afterlife” (Cho’s Browser analogy is brilliantly useful in explaining multiple similarly functioning ‘hells’) but how do you have the location of Tartarus without the elder god Tartarus being alive still? So there is no reconciliation here.

In conclusion it seems Gaea’s siblings are needed for even the marvel version of the Greek myths, but to do so inherently contradicts the pre-established elder god stuff. Can anyone help me?[/quote]

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